|
Post by Northy on Jan 10, 2024 8:45:27 GMT
Which shows there are good, hard-working people there, producing results that customers want. Just because there was a very small group of charlatans there many years ago, doesn't mean there is now does it ? Or, it shows they are well connected to people with power to award such contracts. Like PPE providers! Someone's been swallowing too much social media I think. You do know the context of the PPE VIP lane scandal don't you, ministers and their families and friends and bypassing the tendering process?
|
|
|
Post by Northy on Jan 10, 2024 8:47:41 GMT
Never mind handing the bloody medal back,the money she gets should be stopped and she should be jailed. Once the MET investigation is complete and she faces justice then she should, just like a bent policeman losing their pension, it should be reclaimed and go into the compensation pot.
|
|
|
Post by oggyoggy on Jan 10, 2024 9:04:04 GMT
Apparently Sunak is going to announce they will pass legislation to quash all convictions. That’s going further than just pardoning them all and this is unprecedented. It means they see the victims of this scandal as more wronged than homosexuals criminally convicted for being gay, who were only pardoned. Surely this isn’t right and will open a can of worms for others wronged in different scandals who will then demand more. It also risks exonerating the small numbers who did have their hands in the till. Not to mention the huge constitutional problems of the government blanketly overturning decisions by our supposedly independent judiciary. What precedent does this set? It's a very difficult one Oggy. In this case a pardon is not enough. In any case, some of the victims,as U understand it, ate not happy with a blanket pardon , which , in a sense, individually and psychologically is a non- event...they want individual exonerated through the courts.....they have had 20 years of injustice .. to have to it overturned ( disregarded?) over night is not enough. I obviously agree with you on the separation of powers and wider implications but by some means the authorities have got to do the right thing....and as quickly as possible......is the alternative to let the law take its course which would have to be on a case by case basis. Perhaps you do both is the answer, if that's logically possible. I’m not sure what the answer is to be honest. Will the people whose lives have been ruined ever be contented with what is done to rectify? I expect not. That’s because how can you ever really make up for something like this? A heartfelt apology. Real change in process of these things. Pardons for all (save those convicted of fraud who should be dealt with on a case by case basis). And financial compensation. I don’t think they should be put on a pedestal above being criminally convicted of being gay as it sets a precedent. I also think the rule of law and separation of powers should be respected absolutely.
|
|
|
Post by oggyoggy on Jan 10, 2024 9:05:44 GMT
Or, it shows they are well connected to people with power to award such contracts. Like PPE providers! Someone's been swallowing too much social media I think. You do know the context of the PPE VIP lane scandal don't you, ministers and their families and friends and bypassing the tendering process? Yes, tongue was in cheek. Public procurement processes are very robust and important as we have seen with PPE what happens when they are ignored: corruption.
|
|
|
Post by Northy on Jan 10, 2024 9:37:24 GMT
Someone's been swallowing too much social media I think. You do know the context of the PPE VIP lane scandal don't you, ministers and their families and friends and bypassing the tendering process? Yes, tongue was in cheek. Public procurement processes are very robust and important as we have seen with PPE what happens when they are ignored: corruption. Yes, it is quite robust these days, probably more so than previously thankfully, the civil service who do all that for the Government probably weren't the best at it in the past, we've seen some people get knighthoods for just doing their job for 30 years, and some of it not that great.
|
|
|
Post by bigjohnritchie on Jan 10, 2024 9:47:44 GMT
It's a very difficult one Oggy. In this case a pardon is not enough. In any case, some of the victims,as U understand it, ate not happy with a blanket pardon , which , in a sense, individually and psychologically is a non- event...they want individual exonerated through the courts.....they have had 20 years of injustice .. to have to it overturned ( disregarded?) over night is not enough. I obviously agree with you on the separation of powers and wider implications but by some means the authorities have got to do the right thing....and as quickly as possible......is the alternative to let the law take its course which would have to be on a case by case basis. Perhaps you do both is the answer, if that's logically possible. I’m not sure what the answer is to be honest. Will the people whose lives have been ruined ever be contented with what is done to rectify? I expect not. That’s because how can you ever really make up for something like this? A heartfelt apology. Real change in process of these things. Pardons for all (save those convicted of fraud who should be dealt with on a case by case basis). And financial compensation. I don’t think they should be put on a pedestal above being criminally convicted of being gay as it sets a precedent. I also think the rule of law and separation of powers should be respected absolutely. All that , plus , I guess human nature ... seeing those responsible punished having their just desserts. There must be some satisfaction in seeing the very people who have utterly ruined your life, your family's, the lives of others, having a similar misery inflicted upon them.Some people have enjoyed their power over others and the financial rewards of their positions. Imagine seeing the inside of a cell for 12 months when completely innocent, the effect on your family, your children. I'm not a vindictive or vengeful person, but this is possibly simple justice.There must be some satisfaction in knowing that some of the culprits have had " a taste of their own medicine", are inside a prison cell.It would be good to see the little people " win" a small victory.
|
|
|
Post by elystokie on Jan 10, 2024 9:51:14 GMT
Some harrowing tales on bbc now from 7 subpostmasters. Missed that, I'll watch it later. Been watching a live phone in on BBC2 for the last hour, absolutely harrowing stories. Next hour on radio 5 they're continuing and interviewing MPs.
|
|
|
Post by Veritas on Jan 10, 2024 10:00:19 GMT
She can't actually hand it back, she can express a wish to gand it back but until the King revokes it she remains a CBE. This is just an attempt to move the spotlight.
|
|
|
Post by fullmetaljacket on Jan 10, 2024 10:39:55 GMT
Some harrowing tales on bbc now from 7 subpostmasters. Missed that, I'll watch it later. Been watching a live phone in on BBC2 for the last hour, absolutely harrowing stories. Next hour on radio 5 they're continuing and interviewing MPs. Yeah, caught a bit. Those were the same people on the news. Really good discussion and asking the minister some tough questions. Think her name was Sally who wasn't taking any shit 😀
|
|
|
Post by stokeson on Jan 10, 2024 11:03:05 GMT
Ed Davey (lib dem) getting a kicking on "The Jeremy (tory wet) Vine show" right now. should he resign? Yes..
|
|
|
Post by superjw on Jan 10, 2024 11:18:13 GMT
She can't actually hand it back, she can express a wish to gand it back but until the King revokes it she remains a CBE. This is just an attempt to move the spotlight. Plus she has already benefitted from the award, whether it be personally or professionally- you can’t had that back. Hopefully the King reads the room and grants the revoke
|
|
|
Post by Paul Spencer on Jan 10, 2024 11:45:03 GMT
Apparently Sunak is going to announce they will pass legislation to quash all convictions. That’s going further than just pardoning them all and this is unprecedented. It means they see the victims of this scandal as more wronged than homosexuals criminally convicted for being gay, who were only pardoned. Surely this isn’t right and will open a can of worms for others wronged in different scandals who will then demand more. It also risks exonerating the small numbers who did have their hands in the till. Not to mention the huge constitutional problems of the government blanketly overturning decisions by our supposedly independent judiciary. What precedent does this set? I tried to make this point the other day Oggy. And furthermore, it sets an extremely dangerous precedent. In a democracy, judges decide who is guilty and who is not guilty, NOT members of Parliament. The moment MP'S give themselves that power, we are on a potentially very dark slope.
|
|
|
Post by stokeson on Jan 10, 2024 12:21:25 GMT
Apparently Sunak is going to announce they will pass legislation to quash all convictions. That’s going further than just pardoning them all and this is unprecedented. It means they see the victims of this scandal as more wronged than homosexuals criminally convicted for being gay, who were only pardoned. Surely this isn’t right and will open a can of worms for others wronged in different scandals who will then demand more. It also risks exonerating the small numbers who did have their hands in the till. Not to mention the huge constitutional problems of the government blanketly overturning decisions by our supposedly independent judiciary. What precedent does this set? I tried to make this point the other day Oggy. And furthermore, it sets an extremely dangerous precedent. In a democracy, judges decide who is guilty and who is not guilty, NOT members of Parliament. The moment MP'S give themselves that power, we are on a potentially very dark slope. It is an election year and there is votes in this. So no suprise.......
|
|
|
Post by Paul Spencer on Jan 10, 2024 15:00:18 GMT
Let us hope Tony Collins is wrong, or else it will be you and I picking up the tab ...
|
|
|
Post by lawrieleslie on Jan 10, 2024 15:32:39 GMT
Apparently Sunak is going to announce they will pass legislation to quash all convictions. That’s going further than just pardoning them all and this is unprecedented. It means they see the victims of this scandal as more wronged than homosexuals criminally convicted for being gay, who were only pardoned. Surely this isn’t right and will open a can of worms for others wronged in different scandals who will then demand more. It also risks exonerating the small numbers who did have their hands in the till. Not to mention the huge constitutional problems of the government blanketly overturning decisions by our supposedly independent judiciary. What precedent does this set? I tried to make this point the other day Oggy. And furthermore, it sets an extremely dangerous precedent. In a democracy, judges decide who is guilty and who is not guilty, NOT members of Parliament. The moment MP'S give themselves that power, we are on a potentially very dark slope. It’s a difficult one for sure. But convictions get overturned as new evidence emerges albeit by retrial. But with the Horizon IT scandal, although new evidence has emerged that has helped to exonerate a few of the sub postmasters/mistresses on appeal, I think that what Sunak has proposed is justified by the snails pace of the judiciary to hear the appeals. It was 2019 when the appeals were allowed to commence and in the subsequent 4 years just 90 appeals have been heard.
|
|
|
Post by Northy on Jan 10, 2024 17:10:18 GMT
Let us hope Tony Collins is wrong, or else it will be you and I picking up the tab ... You'd think they will, and also the people who were involved in it, their golden handshakes, any bonuses etc as well as facing Justice.
|
|
|
Post by metalhead on Jan 10, 2024 20:26:05 GMT
She can't actually hand it back, she can express a wish to gand it back but until the King revokes it she remains a CBE. This is just an attempt to move the spotlight. Plus she has already benefitted from the award, whether it be personally or professionally- you can’t had that back.Hopefully the King reads the room and grants the revoke This is an interesting one isn't it? I watched the Balco documentary a few weeks ago... which is a great watch btw, especially if you're interested in how the professional Sports steroid machine works and shows how quickly commercialized cheating can become a well-paid industry. Tim Montgomery (former 100m US world record holder who was subsequently proven to be absolutely off his tits on steroids) is one of the athletes giving his story and something he was extremely keen to stress is that nobody could take back the happiness he felt, and what he experienced during that time. Ultimately, they stripped his world record and his medals, but the experience can never be taken from him and you can see in some respects how he'd probably do the same again. It's a very similar situation here in my opinion... Vennells already met the Queen and received her award. She's had her big day and the adulation of her peers and no doubt toasted to expensive champagne for weeks. The fact she's now handing back as a token gesture after years of bullying and vilifying of her own people really does show a lack of self awareness. It is fucking meaningless gesture. So what if you hand back your CBE? Handing it back changes absolutely nothing, especially for those who have been royally fucked over. It certainly doesn't wind the hands of time back and it won't ever make up for the suffering of the people she hurt. Let us hope Tony Collins is wrong, or else it will be you and I picking up the tab ... ...removed to reduce page bloat/duplication... So this is an interesting one because I saw this article earlier today in the Daily Mail. www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12945147/horizon-tech-expert-post-office-scandal-immunity-public-inquiry.htmlI find the above journalism, slightly iffy to be honest, despite the fact that this story has made it into every paper today. Paula Vennell's was the CEO of the Post Office, earning 4.6 million a year, and destroying the lives of working class people, some of whom were forced to live in their cars. This guy will have been on 50-60k a year perhaps? Being a software architect doesn't make him some kind of big cheese. In the grand scheme of this scandal, he was a fucking nobody.... trust me. There is a major power differential between him and Vennells and trying to find a false equivalence would be nonsensical. While this guy may be the key reason behind the poor implementation, he is almost certainly nothing to do with the corporate cover up that took place after. Furthermore, he is not a representative of Fujitsu. He is one bloke, probably trying to do his best job and simply doing a shit one. Where are the senior leadership team at Fujitsu? How are they escaping any kind of bad press?
|
|
|
Post by iancransonsknees on Jan 10, 2024 21:33:40 GMT
|
|
|
Post by toppercorner on Jan 10, 2024 22:21:19 GMT
|
|
|
Post by Paul Spencer on Jan 10, 2024 22:49:57 GMT
Which clearly demonstrates that a conspiracy has taken place. How could there be a bonus system in place for successful prosecutions, whilst at the same time, the subpostmasters were officially being told, that they were the only ones who were having issues?
|
|
|
Post by hotterpotter on Jan 10, 2024 23:12:12 GMT
Noticed today that our system at work is done by Fujitsu. That's a load of shite too!
|
|
|
Post by Paul Spencer on Jan 11, 2024 0:12:11 GMT
Watched a lot of interviews over the last few days but this is one of the stand out ones for me, answers a lot of the questions people have been asking ...
|
|
|
Post by chuffedstokie on Jan 11, 2024 7:04:54 GMT
Which clearly demonstrates that a conspiracy has taken place. How could there be a bonus system in place for successful prosecutions, whilst at the same time, the subpostmasters were officially being told, that they were the only ones who were having issues? I've been thinking about this helpline aspect, different sub postmasters ringing the same number (Fujitsu I presume), getting different people each time but being told the same thing, that they're the only one. This smacks of a scripted response handed down to the operators secure in the knowledge that they knew something was wrong and they'd be getting complaints. That in itself is acceptance of liability on the part of Fujitsu.
|
|
|
Post by iancransonsknees on Jan 11, 2024 7:15:16 GMT
My old man raised a good point.
When was the last accusation against a postmaster made?
Were any ever made against post office counters that were operated by the high street stores they moved into WH Smith, Ryman etc, or was the transfer of the counters to these businesses after they stopped this?
I don't know if they are operated by those businesses or they are franchises within a building, still operated by a sub-postmaster. I think what he was getting at was if these big businesses were using the same horizon system why did they not have a problem? They must have surely?
|
|
|
Post by bigjohnritchie on Jan 11, 2024 7:21:27 GMT
Which clearly demonstrates that a conspiracy has taken place. How could there be a bonus system in place for successful prosecutions, whilst at the same time, the subpostmasters were officially being told, that they were the only ones who were having issues? I've been thinking about this helpline aspect, different sub postmasters ringing the same number (Fujitsu I presume), getting different people each time but being told the same thing, that they're the only one. This smacks of a scripted response handed down to the operators secure in the knowledge that they knew something was wrong and they'd be getting complaints. That responsibility, in itself is acceptance of liability on the part of Fujitsu. Ageed Chuffed, For me the personal issue rests on who, with executive or managerial responsibility, knew that there were major issues with Horizon, when they knew and what they did about it.....in all three organisations...Fujitsu, the Government/Parliament and the Post Office. Whether those people are covered by Corporate Law could mean that they avoid prosecution? Also what needs to be looked at are the Sub postmaster contracts which are probably illegal in themselves, the concept of making up the shortfalls, if they contained illegal clauses it is irrelevant if the sub postmasters signed them.
|
|
|
Post by Northy on Jan 11, 2024 7:28:30 GMT
Noticed today that our system at work is done by Fujitsu. That's a load of shite too! Which system is that ? We use Microsoft and ever since I was upgraded to v11 its been shit.
|
|
|
Post by Huddysleftfoot on Jan 11, 2024 7:29:46 GMT
Take a bow Ian Hislop...outstanding.
|
|
|
Post by bigjohnritchie on Jan 11, 2024 7:33:34 GMT
Another sad observation for me is that how in large ( often public the Police, Health service, County councils, the Utilities,political parties) organisations people get to the top who simply learn the "corporate speak", good "confident " performers, love the idea of having a bit of power over others, usually not really innovators or leaders but conformists. Then these people set the rules, the culture, the agendas. Not controversial or noticeable if nothing goes wrong. But when it does, there's a toxic atmosphere for the workers and very questionable beliefs and practices emerge, that become almost impossible to challenge. Any truth becomes secondary. I know what I mean, but can't explain it very well, perhaps others can explain it better than me!.
|
|
|
Post by Huddysleftfoot on Jan 11, 2024 7:35:36 GMT
|
|
|
Post by deeside2 on Jan 11, 2024 7:35:53 GMT
I think I read that there are/were in the region of 19,600 sub-post offices around the country. What I don't understand is that as Horizon has never functioned correctly even before going live why are there "only" these 750-ish prosecutions. I assume that even now there are still some subpostmasters who have sadly been affected still to come forward, but why hasn't the problem affected every post office as the system itself is so obviously faulty and unfit for purpose ? Maybe I've missed this answer but it just seems strange it's been "selective" for want of a better word. The more that you see and read about this scandal the more shocking it becomes.
|
|