|
Joe Allen
Dec 17, 2019 13:46:53 GMT
via mobile
Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2019 13:46:53 GMT
Things are probably going to get worse, before they get better. I think most expect that. Most also don't seem to know what the hell Allen contributes. It would be better for all, if he left. If we could get £7m for him, or whatever, I genuinely think that spent right, we'd be a better side for it. I can't recall any MOTM performances from him since he's been here. I can though, remember numerous 'meh' performances; and for a player of his supposed calibre, we've had a poor return from him. That line alone just shows how fans become blinkered so he will never be good enough in their eyes. At least try to be objective. I get it, we watch players play, form opinions, some become extreme and it then subconciously becomes an exercise in only seeing the bad and not the good to justify it. It's fine, he clearly wont be here for long then we can go back to watching Ryan fucking Woods showing us how its done... You may be right. Don't get me wrong...I'm not singling Allen out here, as the only player I'd want to see the back of. He's always been on a pedestal because of his 'pedigree', so to that extent, maybe he's just the biggest disappointment? Woods can do one, as well.
|
|
|
Post by bayernoatcake on Dec 17, 2019 13:49:01 GMT
He's our 5th best central midfielder at best. Who cares if he leaves? I'm no lover of joe allen but 5th best? Badou Etebo Clucas Powell Allen Seems fair to me.
|
|
|
Joe Allen
Dec 17, 2019 13:50:05 GMT
via mobile
Post by estrangedsonoffaye on Dec 17, 2019 13:50:05 GMT
That line alone just shows how fans become blinkered so he will never be good enough in their eyes. At least try to be objective. I get it, we watch players play, form opinions, some become extreme and it then subconciously becomes an exercise in only seeing the bad and not the good to justify it. It's fine, he clearly wont be here for long then we can go back to watching Ryan fucking Woods showing us how its done... You may be right. Don't get me wrong...I'm not singling Allen out here, as the only player I'd want to see the back of. He's always been on a pedestal because of his 'pedigree', so to that extent, maybe he's just the biggest disappointment? Woods can do one, as well. Exactly my feeling, one of the highest paid members of the squad who starts every week should be producing more in a league that is supposedly way below his actual playing level. I don’t think its unfair to expect some kind of return from a guy who had his wage drop clause waived.
|
|
|
Post by pez75 on Dec 17, 2019 13:59:14 GMT
That line alone just shows how fans become blinkered so he will never be good enough in their eyes. At least try to be objective. I get it, we watch players play, form opinions, some become extreme and it then subconciously becomes an exercise in only seeing the bad and not the good to justify it. It's fine, he clearly wont be here for long then we can go back to watching Ryan fucking Woods showing us how its done... So vitriol against a player is ok as long as it s a player that you don’t like? Cause I see no difference in the “vitriolic” content of your posts about Woods and other people’s posts about Allen other than the player in question. Although I take your point I do see a difference. We all call players this and that, and opinions can differ but not many get unjustifiably tagged as 'the reason for our decline' and 'the worst player to wear the shirt in my lifetime', etc.
|
|
|
Joe Allen
Dec 17, 2019 13:59:23 GMT
via mobile
Post by davejohnno1 on Dec 17, 2019 13:59:23 GMT
I'm no lover of joe allen but 5th best? Badou Etebo Clucas Powell Allen Seems fair to me. Clucas is crap. Powell isnt really a midfield player. Etebo I'll give you and badou, controversial though this may be, is equally as undisciplined as Allen is, charging here there and everywhere. Hes just more powerful in doing it.
|
|
|
Post by bayernoatcake on Dec 17, 2019 14:00:50 GMT
Badou Etebo Clucas Powell Allen Seems fair to me. Clucas is crap. Powell isnt really a midfield player. Etebo I'll give you and badou, controversial though this may be, is equally as undisciplined as Allen is, charging here there and everywhere. Hes just more powerful in doing it. Badou is a way better footballer though. I'd play all 4 of them in the midfield 3 ahead Allen. Pretty easily too. I don't get the loyality people have for the bloke. He's been nothing but an issue since signing.
|
|
|
Post by pez75 on Dec 17, 2019 14:09:27 GMT
You may be right. Don't get me wrong...I'm not singling Allen out here, as the only player I'd want to see the back of. He's always been on a pedestal because of his 'pedigree', so to that extent, maybe he's just the biggest disappointment? Woods can do one, as well. Exactly my feeling, one of the highest paid members of the squad who starts every week should be producing more in a league that is supposedly way below his actual playing level. I don’t think its unfair to expect some kind of return from a guy who had his wage drop clause waived. Just what is expected though? With the exception of the first few weeks of this season and last, I believe Joe has performed consistently well since he has been here. For the last 2 yrs+ he has been part of team in rapid decline - if we had swapped him with Kante at the start of that I doubt things would have been much different. Teams can become shit even with good players - we are living proof as our team is less than the sum of its parts.
|
|
|
Joe Allen
Dec 17, 2019 14:12:19 GMT
via mobile
Post by davejohnno1 on Dec 17, 2019 14:12:19 GMT
Clucas is crap. Powell isnt really a midfield player. Etebo I'll give you and badou, controversial though this may be, is equally as undisciplined as Allen is, charging here there and everywhere. Hes just more powerful in doing it. Badou is a way better footballer though. I'd play all 4 of them in the midfield 3 ahead Allen. Pretty easily too. I don't get the loyality people have for the bloke. He's been nothing but an issue since signing. Power aside, I really dont see too much difference between badou and Allen. They are very similar players. I prefer badou and have never have been an allen fan but 5th best is pushing it given the amount of shit, clucas included, we have in midfield.
|
|
|
Joe Allen
Dec 17, 2019 14:12:53 GMT
via mobile
Post by LankyPotter on Dec 17, 2019 14:12:53 GMT
I have to admit with Cousins sitting deeper Joe has looked a lot brighter. Would like him to come and receive the ball more often but what can you do. I think playing Luton and Reading have had a lot do with it as well. Lets see how good he looks against Fulham, Brentford and West Brom. That too.
|
|
|
Post by realstokebloke on Dec 17, 2019 14:26:35 GMT
I'm no lover of joe allen but 5th best? Badou Etebo Clucas Powell Allen Seems fair to me. Mmm., one and two: no issues there.
Clucas: just not cut it consistently enough. He still could get there but some of the absolute dross he trotted out last season alone means he ain't above Joe.
Powell: based on him as a virtual footballer (great on paper and in people's minds), then fine. Based on the reality of him hardly playing and hardly ever being off the physio table, and, frankly, largely underwhelming when he does, no chance.
Rankings aside though, how bad is it, that our undesputed (?) best two seem destined to be sold in Jan?
|
|
|
Post by estrangedsonoffaye on Dec 17, 2019 14:45:32 GMT
Exactly my feeling, one of the highest paid members of the squad who starts every week should be producing more in a league that is supposedly way below his actual playing level. I don’t think its unfair to expect some kind of return from a guy who had his wage drop clause waived. Just what is expected though? With the exception of the first few weeks of this season and last, I believe Joe has performed consistently well since he has been here. For the last 2 yrs+ he has been part of team in rapid decline - if we had swapped him with Kante at the start of that I doubt things would have been much different. Teams can become shit even with good players - we are living proof as our team is less than the sum of its parts. This is where I'd disagree. I think Allen's been poor this season. He's made a litany of mistakes in terms of tracking runners, undisciplined pressing, losing the ball in key areas. That's extended into the O'Neill period too. Wigan's goal against us came about because he fucks around with a pass on halfway (Edwards and Butland fuck up too). Cardiff score against us because him and Woods can't track one guy between them. He's improved since Cousins has slotted in behind him to sweep up any issues but this is a very small sample size against one club who made 3 mistakes you won'd see many teams make and another where neither side had a shot on target and I'm concerned if that is what it takes to make him look decent. I don't think he's creative enough with his ball carrying from deep or his passing. Allen remains in my opinion a jack of all trades and a master of none. I'd expect someone on his wages to do more than a holding role when someone like Cousins is doing a fine job of it. I'd expect someone on his wages to be more aggressive with his dribbling like Etebo and N'Diaye. I'd expect someone on his wages to be able to pick passes off from dropping deep, rather than passing it straight back. I'd expect someone on his wage to press as well as he did against Luton every single game. Which he doesn't, his pass blocking stats are 5th for our CMs despite his energy and press being suppodedly one of his biggest assets. He's most guilty imo at standing half a yard away and considering it a press, something you rarely see Etebo and N'Diaye do, they get right in there and try and take the ball. Allen gets caught in no man's land. A quick look on WhoScored bears pretty much all of this out. He's 4th or 5th for most stats per 90 mins. But he keeps his spot. I know you can argue any point with stats, but they bear out what I see with my eye and my belief that Etebo, N'Diaye and Clucas have been better than him this year by some distance. All players are culpable, but he's never dropped for a sustained period of time like eveyrone else in the midfield is subject to. Which is my main frustration, he's undroppable despite in my opinion, not meriting it.
|
|
|
Post by pez75 on Dec 17, 2019 15:11:21 GMT
Just what is expected though? With the exception of the first few weeks of this season and last, I believe Joe has performed consistently well since he has been here. For the last 2 yrs+ he has been part of team in rapid decline - if we had swapped him with Kante at the start of that I doubt things would have been much different. Teams can become shit even with good players - we are living proof as our team is less than the sum of its parts. This is where I'd disagree. I think Allen's been poor this season. He's made a litany of mistakes in terms of tracking runners, undisciplined pressing, losing the ball in key areas. That's extended into the O'Neill period too. Wigan's goal against us came about because he fucks around with a pass on halfway (Edwards and Butland fuck up too). Cardiff score against us because him and Woods can't track one guy between them. He's improved since Cousins has slotted in behind him to sweep up any issues but this is a very small sample size against one club who made 3 mistakes you won'd see many teams make and another where neither side had a shot on target and I'm concerned if that is what it takes to make him look decent. I don't think he's creative enough with his ball carrying from deep or his passing. Allen remains in my opinion a jack of all trades and a master of none. I'd expect someone on his wages to do more than a holding role when someone like Cousins is doing a fine job of it. I'd expect someone on his wages to be more aggressive with his dribbling like Etebo and N'Diaye. I'd expect someone on his wages to be able to pick passes off from dropping deep, rather than passing it straight back. I'd expect someone on his wage to press as well as he did against Luton every single game. Which he doesn't, his pass blocking stats are 5th for our CMs despite his energy and press being suppodedly one of his biggest assets. He's most guilty imo at standing half a yard away and considering it a press, something you rarely see Etebo and N'Diaye do, they get right in there and try and take the ball. Allen gets caught in no man's land.A quick look on WhoScored bears pretty much all of this out. He's 4th or 5th for most stats per 90 mins. But he keeps his spot. I know you can argue any point with stats, but they bear out what I see with my eye and my belief that Etebo, N'Diaye and Clucas have been better than him this year by some distance. All players are culpable, but he's never dropped for a sustained period of time like eveyrone else in the midfield is subject to. Which is my main frustration, he's undroppable despite in my opinion, not meriting it. I dont have time to go into every point you make, and I am sure a couple are valid, but I will take issue with the bold paragraph you wrote. IMO that is basically reaffirming my point of people only seeing what they want to see - or at least remembering / acknowledging it. As for being droppable, until the recent mystery with Etebo and Badou only Woods and Cousins could consider themselves dropped for poor form. Allen, Clucas, & Etebo (and once def staying / fit, Badou) were all ever-present unless injured and rightly so. This is not exclusive to Allen.
|
|
|
Joe Allen
Dec 17, 2019 15:20:19 GMT
via mobile
Post by nonameface on Dec 17, 2019 15:20:19 GMT
This is where I'd disagree. I think Allen's been poor this season. He's made a litany of mistakes in terms of tracking runners, undisciplined pressing, losing the ball in key areas. That's extended into the O'Neill period too. Wigan's goal against us came about because he fucks around with a pass on halfway (Edwards and Butland fuck up too). Cardiff score against us because him and Woods can't track one guy between them. He's improved since Cousins has slotted in behind him to sweep up any issues but this is a very small sample size against one club who made 3 mistakes you won'd see many teams make and another where neither side had a shot on target and I'm concerned if that is what it takes to make him look decent. I don't think he's creative enough with his ball carrying from deep or his passing. Allen remains in my opinion a jack of all trades and a master of none. I'd expect someone on his wages to do more than a holding role when someone like Cousins is doing a fine job of it. I'd expect someone on his wages to be more aggressive with his dribbling like Etebo and N'Diaye. I'd expect someone on his wages to be able to pick passes off from dropping deep, rather than passing it straight back. I'd expect someone on his wage to press as well as he did against Luton every single game. Which he doesn't, his pass blocking stats are 5th for our CMs despite his energy and press being suppodedly one of his biggest assets. He's most guilty imo at standing half a yard away and considering it a press, something you rarely see Etebo and N'Diaye do, they get right in there and try and take the ball. Allen gets caught in no man's land.A quick look on WhoScored bears pretty much all of this out. He's 4th or 5th for most stats per 90 mins. But he keeps his spot. I know you can argue any point with stats, but they bear out what I see with my eye and my belief that Etebo, N'Diaye and Clucas have been better than him this year by some distance. All players are culpable, but he's never dropped for a sustained period of time like eveyrone else in the midfield is subject to. Which is my main frustration, he's undroppable despite in my opinion, not meriting it. I dont have time to go into every point you make, and I am sure a couple are valid, but I will take issue with the bold paragraph you wrote. IMO that is basically reaffirming my point of people only seeing what they want to see - or at least remembering / acknowledging it. As for being droppable, until the recent mystery with Etebo and Badou only Woods and Cousins could consider themselves dropped for poor form. Allen, Clucas, & Etebo (and once def staying / fit, Badou) were all ever-present unless injured and rightly so. This is not exclusive to Allen. Cousins form wasn't as bad as that seen by Allen since. Allen is technically a decent footballer, but can't get himself into a game because he isn't athletic or skillfull enough to impact the game defensively or in an attacking sense. I'm really hoping anyone out there is prepared to buy him and the club accept pretty much any offer which doesn't negatively impact FFP.
|
|
|
Joe Allen
Dec 17, 2019 15:51:24 GMT
via mobile
Post by Fred Merger on Dec 17, 2019 15:51:24 GMT
At this stage in his career at 29, its probably the best for all parties if he moves on to a bottom half Premiership side as long as the fee is reasonable. He just doesn't have the physicality to play regularly at this level as he is too easily pushed off the ball.
|
|
|
Joe Allen
Dec 17, 2019 17:57:43 GMT
via mobile
Post by trickydicky73 on Dec 17, 2019 17:57:43 GMT
I'm no lover of joe allen but 5th best? Badou Etebo Clucas Powell Allen Seems fair to me. Powell? I've played more than him!
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2019 20:34:10 GMT
Badou Etebo Clucas Powell Allen Seems fair to me. Clucas is crap. Powell isnt really a midfield player. Etebo I'll give you and badou, controversial though this may be, is equally as undisciplined as Allen is, charging here there and everywhere. Hes just more powerful in doing it. Clucas has been one of our better players this season and is top goal scorer. Powell has more idea what to do with a football, granted not showing too much. Badou is no where near as undisciplined, you don't find him 70 yards on the right wing chasing down a lost cause. He also knows which way the opposition goal is facing, he skips past players and tries to play on the front foot. Etebo is a slightly less version of Badou. Allen literally does nothing well. He's not physical, he's not technical, he's not intelligent, he's not tactical, he creates little and scores little. He also can't defend and very often his first touch puts him in trouble. He has a good engine and he puts a shift in, that said you need to have more than that. It's no coincidence that hes been the ever present in a team on such a decline. He leaves way too many gaps in midfield that teams can waltz through. Is he the worst player we have? Nope of course not but he offers so little and we sacrifice so much to play him that he's a real problem.
|
|
|
Post by FullerMagic on Dec 18, 2019 11:15:29 GMT
|
|
|
Post by chigstoke on Dec 18, 2019 11:18:37 GMT
I will have a fantastic hard on if Allen leaves. And Butland. And all the team probably.
|
|
|
Post by bayernoatcake on Dec 18, 2019 11:18:43 GMT
Yes Joe, cause a scene and feck off!
|
|
|
Post by potterpaul on Dec 18, 2019 11:22:23 GMT
Where's that thread asking if MON is another Dud?
|
|
|
Post by FullerMagic on Dec 30, 2019 7:36:06 GMT
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2019 8:18:56 GMT
Why on earth did we turn down 25M for him?
EDIT:
I'm not one for a complete moneyball approach but surely you have to take each case on it's merits?
We turned down 25M, an almost doubling of our money on a then 28 soon to be 29 year old midfielder who has never really fit into whatever it was we were trying to do!? That after a summer where we let a 28 year old Marko Arnautovic go for 20M?
Man alive.
|
|
|
Post by FullerMagic on Dec 30, 2019 8:47:17 GMT
If it's true and £12m is on the table, is there any way at all that can be turned down?
|
|
|
Joe Allen
Dec 30, 2019 8:49:54 GMT
via mobile
Post by gingerninja on Dec 30, 2019 8:49:54 GMT
No you would think not, will be down to if the player has indicated he wants out I would imagine, if he does then I think O' Neill would sanction the move.
|
|
|
Joe Allen
Dec 30, 2019 8:50:52 GMT
via mobile
Post by davejohnno1 on Dec 30, 2019 8:50:52 GMT
If it's true and £12m is on the table, is there any way at all that can be turned down? We want more. I think we will turn down 12m unless a move to west ham is 12m + 3m on survival.
|
|
|
Post by cobhamstokey on Dec 30, 2019 8:51:30 GMT
If it's true and £12m is on the table, is there any way at all that can be turned down? This is where our transfer team come into there own. They’ll turn down 12m and then loan Badou out to Turkey.
|
|
|
Post by FullerMagic on Dec 30, 2019 8:52:06 GMT
If it's true and £12m is on the table, is there any way at all that can be turned down? We want more. I think we will turn down 12m unless a move to west ham is 12m + 3m on survival. I think wanting more than 12m for Allen is absurd, to be honest. He's 30 in March
|
|
|
Post by davejohnno1 on Dec 30, 2019 8:53:01 GMT
We want more. I think we will turn down 12m unless a move to west ham is 12m + 3m on survival. I think wanting more than 12m for Allen is absurd, to be honest. He's 30 in March So do I but when has that stopped us previously?
|
|
|
Joe Allen
Dec 30, 2019 8:56:35 GMT
via mobile
Post by gingerninja on Dec 30, 2019 8:56:35 GMT
Do we think McKinley will reunite with Moyes as they did before?
|
|
|
Post by jeycov on Dec 30, 2019 8:58:23 GMT
We want more. I think we will turn down 12m unless a move to west ham is 12m + 3m on survival. I think wanting more than 12m for Allen is absurd, to be honest. He's 30 in March Depends just how much they want him I’m sure he’s very disheartened at our current situation and would like to return to the Premiership We’re not going to get a more experienced and capable replacement for Joe so imo it would be better to retain him
|
|