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Post by crapslinger on Feb 10, 2021 10:18:09 GMT
Jesus wept. I await to see the defence of the CEO for this one. Not Teflon's fault it's all down to the manager (insert name here), how the hell does this man still have a job the master of disaster !
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Gregory
Feb 10, 2021 10:19:49 GMT
via mobile
Post by gingerninja on Feb 10, 2021 10:19:49 GMT
God that is grim reading Fuller. Was hoping 2021 might give us some serious breathing space, doesn't look like it from that. 2022 seems to be when we can consider a serious rebuild.
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Post by FullerMagic on Feb 10, 2021 10:21:14 GMT
I think this is accurate - ish now? At least we know the scale of the contract mess - which keeps getting worse with the news that Woods has an extra year (although hopefully Rowett will take him again) And we've gone from thinking Afobe may be gone this summer to the revelation that he probably has until 2023! 21: Shawcross, Chester, Mikel (but may be some clauses with Mikel and Chester to get another year?) 22: Davies, Smith, Tymon, Lindsay, Batth, BMI, Wimmer, Woods, Allen, Thompson, Ndiaye, Clucas, Powell, Ince, McClean, Gregory, Vokes 23: Bursik, Bauer, Fox, Etebo, TOB, Afobe 24: Edwards, Collins, Campbell 25: Souttar UnknownsFletcher 21 or 22 - probably 22 Sorensen "long-term" deal signed in 2018 Cousins (22?), Brown (24?), Doughty (25/26?) Jacob Brown signs 3 year deal at StokeFrom the Barnsley official site............. Isn't that referring to the Barnsley deal he'd signed the previous year? I'd be surprised if we hadn't given him a 4-yr deal given his age? But looks like the new trend is to leave it undisclosed!
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Post by prestwichpotter on Feb 10, 2021 10:21:27 GMT
God that is grim reading Fuller. Was hoping 2021 might give us some serious breathing space, doesn't look like it from that. 2022 seems to be when we can consider a serious rebuild. This is why patience is required. We still have a massive rebuilding job make no bones about that.....
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Post by prestwichpotter on Feb 10, 2021 10:21:50 GMT
Isn't that referring to the Barnsley deal he'd signed the previous year? I'd be surprised if we hasn't given him a 4-yr deal given his age? But looks like the new trend is to leave it undisclosed! Yeah I'm a dick head ignore me I read it wrong
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Post by lordb on Feb 10, 2021 10:25:46 GMT
Jesus wept. I await to see the defence of the CEO for this one. Not Teflon's fault it's all down to the manager (insert name here), how the hell does this man still have a job the master of disaster ! contract length & salary agreed is entirely down to Scholes each & every time
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Post by drfishy on Feb 10, 2021 10:26:24 GMT
God that is grim reading Fuller. Was hoping 2021 might give us some serious breathing space, doesn't look like it from that. 2022 seems to be when we can consider a serious rebuild. Agreed, was just about resigned to giving up on this season in the hope that we could finally move forward next season. Now that glimmer of optimism is dying. Wierd that for most of premiership we kept contracts short (and we all moaned when players left as they enetered the final year) and as soon as we started giving longer ones we appear to have purchased palyers nobody else would want.
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Post by lagwafis on Feb 10, 2021 10:31:51 GMT
I think this is accurate - ish now? At least we know the scale of the contract mess - which keeps getting worse with the news that Woods has an extra year (although hopefully Rowett will take him again) And we've gone from thinking Afobe may be gone this summer to the revelation that he probably has until 2023! 21: Shawcross, Chester, Mikel (but may be some clauses with Mikel and Chester to get another year?) 22: Davies, Smith, Tymon, Lindsay, Batth, BMI, Wimmer, Woods, Allen, Thompson, Ndiaye, Clucas, Powell, Ince, McClean, Gregory, Vokes 23: Bursik, Bauer, Fox, Etebo, TOB, Afobe 24: Edwards, Collins, Campbell 25: Souttar UnknownsFletcher 21 or 22 - probably 22 Sorensen "long-term" deal signed in 2018 Cousins (22?), Brown (24?), Doughty (25/26?) A global pandemic will have been and gone by the time we clean up this mess.
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Post by wuzza on Feb 10, 2021 10:33:24 GMT
Not Teflon's fault it's all down to the manager (insert name here), how the hell does this man still have a job the master of disaster ! contract length & salary agreed is entirely down to Scholes each & every time But surely if he doesn’t offer the amount and length of contract the agent wants the player walks and the manager is frustrated and this board goes into meltdown about how we never back the manager. We don’t complain when the contracts are lengthy when the players turn out to be good. In both cases the CEO is entirely dependent on the judgement of the manager ! If anything we need a Director of Football to give a second opinion to the board but that’s fraught with difficulties too.
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Post by crapslinger on Feb 10, 2021 10:34:47 GMT
Not Teflon's fault it's all down to the manager (insert name here), how the hell does this man still have a job the master of disaster ! contract length & salary agreed is entirely down to Scholes each & every time I know as are due diligence and transfer fees, shocking isn't it.
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Post by crapslinger on Feb 10, 2021 10:37:21 GMT
contract length & salary agreed is entirely down to Scholes each & every time But surely if he doesn’t offer the amount and length of contract the agent wants the player walks and the manager is frustrated and this board goes into meltdown about how we never back the manager. We don’t complain when the contracts are lengthy when the players turn out to be good. In both cases the CEO is entirely dependent on the judgement of the manager ! If anything we need a Director of Football to give a second opinion to the board but that’s fraught with difficulties too. The problem is that the majority don't turn out to be good, in fact they mainly end up totally the opposite and there in lies the answer as to why we are in such a fcuking mess.
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Post by wuzza on Feb 10, 2021 10:41:29 GMT
But surely if he doesn’t offer the amount and length of contract the agent wants the player walks and the manager is frustrated and this board goes into meltdown about how we never back the manager. We don’t complain when the contracts are lengthy when the players turn out to be good. In both cases the CEO is entirely dependent on the judgement of the manager ! If anything we need a Director of Football to give a second opinion to the board but that’s fraught with difficulties too. The problem is that the majority don't turn out to be good, in fact they mainly end up totally the opposite and there in lies the answer as to why we are in such a fcuking mess. And so the stick we choose to beat this particular whipping boy with shouldn’t be player contracts it should be selection of managers and player recruitment staff.
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Gregory
Feb 10, 2021 10:45:10 GMT
via mobile
Post by werrington on Feb 10, 2021 10:45:10 GMT
contract length & salary agreed is entirely down to Scholes each & every time But surely if he doesn’t offer the amount and length of contract the agent wants the player walks and the manager is frustrated and this board goes into meltdown about how we never back the manager. We don’t complain when the contracts are lengthy when the players turn out to be good. In both cases the CEO is entirely dependent on the judgement of the manager ! If anything we need a Director of Football to give a second opinion to the board but that’s fraught with difficulties too. It doesn’t work like that on here mate They are full of praise for the contracts given to Souttar and Collins but if they go on a poor run of form they’ll be reaming the club for giving them long contracts It’s that simple
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Post by bayernoatcake on Feb 10, 2021 10:46:50 GMT
But surely if he doesn’t offer the amount and length of contract the agent wants the player walks and the manager is frustrated and this board goes into meltdown about how we never back the manager. We don’t complain when the contracts are lengthy when the players turn out to be good. In both cases the CEO is entirely dependent on the judgement of the manager ! If anything we need a Director of Football to give a second opinion to the board but that’s fraught with difficulties too. It doesn’t work like that on here mate They are full of praise for the contracts given to Souttar and Collins but if they go on a poor run of form they’ll be reaming the club for giving them long contracts It’s that simple They shouldn't really be giving anything more than 2 years to anyone over 30. That's pretty standard. I'd have it at 1 year. And if that means you don't sign players like Lee Gregory then oh no.
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Post by wuzza on Feb 10, 2021 10:52:24 GMT
It doesn’t work like that on here mate They are full of praise for the contracts given to Souttar and Collins but if they go on a poor run of form they’ll be reaming the club for giving them long contracts It’s that simple They shouldn't really be giving anything more than 2 years to anyone over 30. That's pretty standard. I'd have it at 1 year. And if that means you don't sign players like Lee Gregory then oh no. Fair enough if that’s a policy decision the club wants to take a risk with. Hell of a lot of good players down the years we probably wouldn’t have seen though.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Feb 10, 2021 10:59:53 GMT
I think this is accurate - ish now? At least we know the scale of the contract mess - which keeps getting worse with the news that Woods has an extra year (although hopefully Rowett will take him again) And we've gone from thinking Afobe may be gone this summer to the revelation that he probably has until 2023! 21: Shawcross, Chester, Mikel (but may be some clauses with Mikel and Chester to get another year?) 22: Davies, Smith, Tymon, Lindsay, Batth, BMI, Wimmer, Woods, Allen, Thompson, Ndiaye, Clucas, Powell, Ince, McClean, Gregory, Vokes 23: Bursik, Bauer, Fox, Etebo, TOB, Afobe 24: Edwards, Collins, Campbell 25: Souttar UnknownsFletcher 21 or 22 - probably 22 Sorensen "long-term" deal signed in 2018 Cousins (22?), Brown (24?), Doughty (25/26?) 2022 and 2023 lists really are depressing. 23 players and arguably you'd only truly want 3 of them, 4 max (if you include Bursik) in your team. I may be being harsh in excluding Davies from my list. If you were being really generous, you are looking at Davies, Powell, Clucas, Thompson, Allen, Bursik and Fox as the only ones who you'd even want in and around the squad at all, even if they aren't necessarily first choices. 7 players out of 23.
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Gregory
Feb 10, 2021 11:00:52 GMT
via mobile
Post by generationex on Feb 10, 2021 11:00:52 GMT
The Hughes signings were part of a plan to find ‘the next level’ players to show our ‘ambition’. They turned out to be feckless wasters with no interest in Stoke City.
The post relegation signings were all part of the plan to identify ‘proven promotion-winning players’ which they largely were but somehow we managed to break.
The new plan is to buy ‘cheap, young and hungry for the future’. The jury is very much out but the signs don’t look good so far.
All of these ‘plans’ are understandable (if predictable) and were hugely popular with the support at the time.
The problem has been that on every occasion the person/people picking the players have failed to recognise most players would prefer to play for a more glamorous club if given the chance and will still get their money whether they can be arsed or not.
All our best signings have been self-motivated and found an interest in north Staffordshire - from Banks and Conroy to Fuller and Delap.
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Post by crapslinger on Feb 10, 2021 11:00:55 GMT
The problem is that the majority don't turn out to be good, in fact they mainly end up totally the opposite and there in lies the answer as to why we are in such a fcuking mess. And so the stick we choose to beat this particular whipping boy with shouldn’t be player contracts it should be selection of managers and player recruitment staff. Indeed and as a member of the board the CEO is also complicit in hiring the managers, he is also part of the recruitment process whichever way you spin this the pointer keeps going back to one source.
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Post by wuzza on Feb 10, 2021 11:07:04 GMT
And so the stick we choose to beat this particular whipping boy with shouldn’t be player contracts it should be selection of managers and player recruitment staff. Indeed and as a member of the board the CEO is also complicit in hiring the managers, he is also part of the recruitment process whichever way you spin this the pointer keeps going back to one source. I honestly disagree - there isn’t a single person root cause of our problems. I see it more as road to hell paved with some really good intentions on behalf of the senior management. There have been some catastrophic and pivotal ‘group’ misjudgements along the way.
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Post by FullerMagic on Feb 10, 2021 11:10:04 GMT
God that is grim reading Fuller. Was hoping 2021 might give us some serious breathing space, doesn't look like it from that. 2022 seems to be when we can consider a serious rebuild. This is why patience is required. We still have a massive rebuilding job make no bones about that..... Suppose we can look forward to another summer where we have to be "very cute" . MON must be so frustrated. This level of wastage on the wage bill combined with the FFP stuff has meant he's managing with one arm tied behind his back and it probably isn't going to change for another 18 months. He must stare at this list of contracts every day and shake his head. Maybe we could get Clarke back on loan - and possibly RND depending on how Sheff Utd see him?
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Post by lordb on Feb 10, 2021 11:10:34 GMT
contract length & salary agreed is entirely down to Scholes each & every time But surely if he doesn’t offer the amount and length of contract the agent wants the player walks and the manager is frustrated and this board goes into meltdown about how we never back the manager. We don’t complain when the contracts are lengthy when the players turn out to be good. In both cases the CEO is entirely dependent on the judgement of the manager ! If anything we need a Director of Football to give a second opinion to the board but that’s fraught with difficulties too. up to a point (re agreeing to what the manager wants) however the five year deals we dished out to the most expensive signings were so we could amortize the costs over the length of the contract, that's entirely down to Scholes the fact that so many signings from Imbula onwards have gone spectacularly badly is primarily down to the managers for choosing those players in the main (although not all clearly no manager signed Etebo or Badou) then compounded by long expensive contracts & big fees with Wimmer at £15m + add ons (so presumably none of those have bene paid) on a huge salary over 5 years , can't blame Hughes for the financials Gregory wont be expensive but 3 year deal at his age? from 29 onwards vast majority should be getting 2year or 1 year deals -
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Post by crapslinger on Feb 10, 2021 11:11:34 GMT
But surely if he doesn’t offer the amount and length of contract the agent wants the player walks and the manager is frustrated and this board goes into meltdown about how we never back the manager. We don’t complain when the contracts are lengthy when the players turn out to be good. In both cases the CEO is entirely dependent on the judgement of the manager ! If anything we need a Director of Football to give a second opinion to the board but that’s fraught with difficulties too. It doesn’t work like that on here mate They are full of praise for the contracts given to Souttar and Collins but if they go on a poor run of form they’ll be reaming the club for giving them long contracts It’s that simple The simple truth is that yes you tie down your up and coming prospects in order to maximise their potential re sale value, you have to have someone or a team of people working for the club who are able to identify those players scouts who are able to spot young talent from elsewhere, it is not sensible to give long contracts to players who don't have the desire to play for the club, are injury prone or over the hill. It's a calculated risk with young players with potential however they will not demand the salary of players like Gregory, Vokes, Ince, Wimmer, Badou, Etebo, Berahino, Afobe and probably Fletcher, none of these players will have or have had no or little re sale value, the situation we find ourselves in is down to managerial incompetence from the board imo it's that simple.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Feb 10, 2021 11:14:48 GMT
This is why patience is required. We still have a massive rebuilding job make no bones about that..... Suppose we can look forward to another summer where we have to be "very cute" . MON must be so frustrated. This level of wastage on the wage bill combined with the FFP stuff has meant he's managing with one arm tied behind his back and it probably isn't going to change for another 18 months. He must stare at this list of contracts every day and shake his head. Maybe we could get Clarke back on loan - and possibly RND depending on how Sheff Utd see him? When's MON's contract end? Realistically for me the 2022/23 season is when we should be looking to have a real go at promotion, if we can do it next season by being cute in the transfer market as you say even better. But it shows the job required.......
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Post by lordb on Feb 10, 2021 11:15:19 GMT
Indeed and as a member of the board the CEO is also complicit in hiring the managers, he is also part of the recruitment process whichever way you spin this the pointer keeps going back to one source. I honestly disagree - there isn’t a single person root cause of our problems. I see it more as road to hell paved with some really good intentions on behalf of the senior management. There have been some catastrophic and pivotal ‘group’ misjudgements along the way. it is massively simplistic, & simply incorrect, to says it's all Scholes fault none the less even allowing for his many failings away from transfers he is culpable re too many transfers re dallying/dithering & then negotiating OTT fee's & salaries in too many cases
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Post by sheikhmomo on Feb 10, 2021 11:15:30 GMT
Always worth re-visiting this statement, looking at our actions since, reviewing the fact that Scholes is still employed (and wouldn't be by any other football club on earth) and concluding what a load of utter shit it was! www.stokecityfc.com/news/club-statement-16
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Post by theteacher on Feb 10, 2021 11:17:54 GMT
I don’t I understand the logic behind point 1. I am not an accountant, so please help me out. The costs associated with Gregory’s employment (transfer fee, wages and benefits etc.) are already sunken costs. So any money we receive in transfer fees is income, which, in part, offset the loss and any additional expenses are booked as costs. So the sooner we ship him out permanently the better, no matter how low the transfer fee actually is. That's how it used to work before FFP FFP means that any given point in time there is a minimum amount you can accept as a transfer fee, fall below that too often you end up with -12points deduction Which is one big reason why very few transfer in the EFL are anything other than loans e.g. we can't sell Afobe for £500k without causing an FFP problem If we purchase a player for £10m (them were the days) and the player is signed on a 4 year contract the transfer fee depreciated by an equal share in each of the 4 years of the contract - so £2.5m each year. Therefore, the said player flops and we are offered £5m after one year. In reality a great sale to remove the player BUT his book value has only reduced to £7.5 in that one year. Signed for £10m. 1 year book value = £7.5m 2 years book value = £5m. 3 year book value = £2.5m After 4 years book value = player written down to £0. If we were to sell rather than loan we would need to sell at or above the book value at the point in time of the players contract, if we sell below it adds FFP pressure to the club.
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Post by crapslinger on Feb 10, 2021 11:18:38 GMT
Indeed and as a member of the board the CEO is also complicit in hiring the managers, he is also part of the recruitment process whichever way you spin this the pointer keeps going back to one source. I honestly disagree - there isn’t a single person root cause of our problems. I see it more as road to hell paved with some really good intentions on behalf of the senior management. There have been some catastrophic and pivotal ‘group’ misjudgements along the way. You can not delegate responsibility this started at the top level, they are the one's responsible for hiring all involved in the "process" despite what PC stated there is something catastrophically wrong with the "process", if they can not take ownership of their short comings this situation will not improve, the buck stops with those in charge, they have invested heavily in the club but not taken responsibility for how their investment has been spent, hence the FFP precipice we are teetering on.
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Post by crapslinger on Feb 10, 2021 11:21:39 GMT
I honestly disagree - there isn’t a single person root cause of our problems. I see it more as road to hell paved with some really good intentions on behalf of the senior management. There have been some catastrophic and pivotal ‘group’ misjudgements along the way. it is massively simplistic, & simply incorrect, to says it's all Scholes fault none the less even allowing for his many failings away from transfers he is culpable re too many transfers re dallying/dithering & then negotiating OTT fee's & salaries in too many cases It is not all his fault this is down to the BOD of which he is one.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Feb 10, 2021 11:21:42 GMT
This is why patience is required. We still have a massive rebuilding job make no bones about that..... Suppose we can look forward to another summer where we have to be "very cute" . MON must be so frustrated. This level of wastage on the wage bill combined with the FFP stuff has meant he's managing with one arm tied behind his back and it probably isn't going to change for another 18 months. He must stare at this list of contracts every day and shake his head. Maybe we could get Clarke back on loan - and possibly RND depending on how Sheff Utd see him? I don't see why RND would sign for us for a season? We'd have 2 left backs who would both want to be playing and can we afford that? We either need a young inexperienced left back who is coming to learn or an old one happy to be back up.
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Post by lordb on Feb 10, 2021 11:24:58 GMT
It doesn’t work like that on here mate They are full of praise for the contracts given to Souttar and Collins but if they go on a poor run of form they’ll be reaming the club for giving them long contracts It’s that simple The simple truth is that yes you tie down your up and coming prospects in order to maximise their potential re sale value, you have to have someone or a team of people working for the club who are able to identify those players scouts who are able to spot young talent from elsewhere, it is not sensible to give long contracts to players who don't have the desire to play for the club, are injury prone or over the hill. It's a calculated risk with young players with potential however they will not demand the salary of players like Gregory, Vokes, Ince, Wimmer, Badou, Etebo, Berahino, Afobe and probably Fletcher, none of these players will have or have had no or little re sale value, the situation we find ourselves in is down to managerial incompetence from the board imo it's that simple. I'd take Fletcher out of that argument free transfer, two year deal & he's shown plenty of desire, he's a good player at this level, agree re his injury record but still think he's a good signing (& can't affix 'good signing' to many over the last 5 years) Gregory again free transfer isn't going to be on a fortune either (unlike others on the list & others not on that list) & again has shown plenty of desire but 3 year deal at his age, that wasn't smart Mikel, not on list, 1 or 2 year deal, good signing on the right deal Brown, ok he's been rubbish but cheap & young & shows lots of desire Doughty, young, cheap highly rated, we will see Fox, free, good attitude, solid signing Chester, divides opinion but for me good signing, free & sensible contract length no expensive loans either, Matondo loan looks like Schalke have agreed to everything we asked, no loan fee, majority wages paid by them (it's usually the other way round) O'Neill signings so far are all sensible are they not? they won't all come off, no club achieves that, but most have & costing buttons with no stupid contracts
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