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Post by greyman on Aug 26, 2019 5:57:58 GMT
Nathan Jones faces challenge to restore Stoke City’s sense of identity
The Journeyman visits . . . Stoke City
More than 20 minutes were still left on the clock when Leeds United’s gleeful travelling support began to inquire if a fire drill had been set off inside the Bet365 Stadium. Patrick Bamford had just made it 3-0 to cap a scintillating display from the Sky Bet Championship leaders and the Stoke City fans had seen enough.
By the time the final whistle was blown, leaving Stoke languishing at the foot of the table, the home stands were all but empty. Nathan Jones, nevertheless, strode on to the pitch to applaud the smattering who remained, then marched defiantly down the tunnel with the away fans’ taunt of “you’re getting sacked in the morning” ringing in his ears. “We’re a shoulda woulda coulda team at the minute,” Jones said. “We’re all underachieving. One way or another, that won’t continue.”
Five games in: too soon to panic? One would certainly hope so. The 46-year-old former Luton Town manager arrived in January to much goodwill but won only three games as Stoke laboured to a 16th-place finish. And after ten new signings and a summer to hone his preferred 4-4-2 diamond formation, evidence of the exciting, dynamic, football that Jones’s Luton team became known for has been fleeting.
Despite a convincing defeat by Preston in mid-week, EFL analysts pointed to encouraging underlying numbers. After all, it is hard to legislate for Jack Butland, the Stoke goalkeeper who could quite easily be playing in the Premier League and part of Gareth Southgate’s England squad, conceding from 55 per cent of all the shots on target that he has faced. Expected goals tables even had Stoke positioned in the play-offs.
As Gary Rowett found to his cost last season, of course, Stoke are still suffering a debilitating hangover from their relegation from the Premier League in 2018. Their dealings in the transfer-market have been nothing short of catastrophic. Players such as Kevin Wimmer, Giannelli Imbula, Moritz Bauer, Badou Ndiaye and Mame Diouf, who cost a combined £60 million, are training with the club’s under-23s or cannot find a place in Jones’s match-day squad.
After Rowett’s disastrous £50 million splurge last summer Jones’s signings included five free transfers and three loans from the Premier League. Benik Afobe, meanwhile, is scoring goals on loan at Bristol City a year after moving to the Bet365 from Wolves for £12 million. Sam Vokes, a £7 million arrival from Burnley in January, cannot find a place on the bench. Ryan Woods, Tom Ince, Danny Bath, James McClean and Sam Clucas cost a combined £30 million and have rarely lived up to their price tags.
Quite how the most expensively assembled squad in the Championship is reliant on Lee Gregory, a free from Millwall, and Scott Hogan, on loan from Aston Villa, to lead the line up front is a mystery. And it said much about Stoke, too, that on Saturday, when Jones made six changes to his starting XI, the captain’s armband was given to Nathan Collins, an 18-year-old centre half making his third league start.
The club’s calamitous dealings have largely been laid at the door of Tony Scholes, the chief executive, and Mark Cartwright, the technical director who, it was announced last month, is leaving in September. His successor will be expected to forage for bargains under a shadow of EFL profit and sustainability rules. But could the appointment not be seen as an opportunity to exhibit some vision and intelligence, in much the same way Norwich City, for example, did with the appointment of Stuart Webber? To imbue a sense of identity, something Stoke have been largely devoid of since the days of Tony Pulis?
All in all, though, it is enough to make you wonder whether Jones may come to regret leaving the upwardly mobile Luton for the Potteries. In taking Luton from League Two to the brink of the Championship, and scoring 301 goals in 170 games in the process, Jones had come to be regarded as one of the brightest young coaches outside the Premier League.
He is not short of self-belief. The chance to prove yourself at a bigger club, in a higher division, is hard to resist, too — as is the lure of a fatter pay packet. But the list of lower league managers who have successfully negotiated the step up to the Championship in recent years is not exactly lengthy.
Paul Hurst, the most recent to try, lasted 14 Championship games at Ipswich Town, another club with long-standing issues, who were relegated, last season. He is now in charge of Scunthorpe United who are bottom League Two.
It is a very different task managing a club littered with overpaid, underperforming players and their concomitant egos. “It’s a big challenge,” Jones said. “We’ve had to change a lot, the dynamic, the environment. We’ve made massive strides with that, but we’re still losing games. That has to change.
“I came from a side, at the level below, that did exactly what Leeds do to teams. They’re relentless, absolutely relentless. That’s a mentality. At the minute, we’re not at that level.
“I’ve had three years of very good success. This is my first foray into the bottom three. I don’t like it. I don’t want to stay here. But this is when you see how good managers can be. It’s how you show your character, your mettle, how you come through these times. As long as the players are with you, then you can come through it.”
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Post by heworksardtho on Aug 26, 2019 6:25:42 GMT
We are Doomed 😎
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Post by Mr_DaftBurger on Aug 26, 2019 6:31:46 GMT
"As long as the players are with you............"
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Post by barnscfc1 on Aug 26, 2019 6:34:16 GMT
Its just waffle...
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Post by future100 on Aug 26, 2019 6:38:26 GMT
Nice to see Scholes and Cartwright getting the recognition they deserve.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2019 6:40:20 GMT
Thanks for the input Mike. What's next, two banks of four and hoof it into the channels? |
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Post by Fred Ferret on Aug 26, 2019 6:48:30 GMT
What a scene of utter carnage.
You couldn’t make it up.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2019 6:54:13 GMT
'...To imbue a sense of identity, something Stoke have been largely devoid of since the days of Tony Pulis?...'
And that from a neutral journalist.
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Post by hawth121087 on Aug 26, 2019 6:58:00 GMT
'...To imbue a sense of identity, something Stoke have been largely devoid of since the days of Tony Pulis?...' And that from a neutral journalist. Lazy journalism - we weren’t moaning about identity when we were out playing some of the best teams in the country. We did have three successive 9th place finishes after TP, the media seem to forget. |
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Post by theoptimist on Aug 26, 2019 6:59:22 GMT
Thanks for the input Mike. What's next, two banks of four and hoof it into the channels? No need to wait for hoof ... we're already doing it! Ask Gregory who spent most of Saturday chasing the lost causes. For all the talk from Jones, he just a poor Pulis. |
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Post by supacoopa101 on Aug 26, 2019 7:01:05 GMT
Doesn't make for good reading does it?
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Post by stokiesteve on Aug 26, 2019 7:02:58 GMT
I like his fight. At least he stands by his decisions and doesn’t blame anyone else
But that article puts it all into perspective.
It’s a shambles.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2019 7:08:06 GMT
I like his fight. At least he stands by his decisions and doesn’t blame anyone else But that article puts it all into perspective. It’s a shambles. I liked Lambert's fight and Lambert in general. He couldn't do the job he signed on for, though...….. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2019 7:08:33 GMT
'...To imbue a sense of identity, something Stoke have been largely devoid of since the days of Tony Pulis?...' And that from a neutral journalist. Lazy journalism - we weren’t moaning about identity when we were out playing some of the best teams in the country. We did have three successive 9th place finishes after TP, the media seem to forget. Truthful journalism. The whole article. The truth hurts. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2019 7:13:21 GMT
Percy article in the Telegraph, behind a paywall though.
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Post by Fred Ferret on Aug 26, 2019 7:14:06 GMT
I am looking for a nuclear reaction sometime this week. I don’t care who it’s from.
I want to see an almighty reaction from within: across the team, within the team management, from the hierarchy. Between all three groups. I want everyone in that club to bloody well stand up and be counted.
IF anyone has any self-respect a reaction should happen, if any show indifference, limp-wrested playing to the galleries, or brittle character, they should be surgically removed. Any diseased or infected element needs eradicating.
This carnival of disaster must stop. A sort of “bonfire of vanities” is required.
Some one, some clique must pay for this fucking mess!
Enough is enough.
JFDI
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Post by werrington on Aug 26, 2019 7:14:35 GMT
Lazy journalism - we weren’t moaning about identity when we were out playing some of the best teams in the country. We did have three successive 9th place finishes after TP, the media seem to forget. Truthful journalism. The whole article. The truth hurts. Some of it is, some of it isn’t |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2019 7:17:17 GMT
Percy article in the Telegraph, behind a paywall though. 'It wasn't my mate Gary's fault' Absolute bollocks Percy. |
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Post by greyman on Aug 26, 2019 7:19:02 GMT
Percy article in the Telegraph, behind a paywall though. There must be some private moments, in times of introspection, when Nathan Jones wonders whether quitting Luton for Stoke was a good career move after all. Shortly before his appointment at the bet365 Stadium Jones had won ten matches out of 11 in League One, with his reputation as a shrewd, progressive young manager on the rise. His move to Stoke in January was a reward for those successive promotions, a deserved recognition for his diligent work in the lower leagues and journey up the ladder from his first steps coaching at Yeovil. Seven months later, Jones finds himself bottom of the Championship with the patience of supporters starting to wear thin. Some fans want him sacked, while others are demanding to know whether Diamond Formations Are Forever There is no suggestion at this point that Jones is in danger, despite a run of three wins in 25 league games, but these are desperately worrying times for the Coates family. Jones was the club’s third manager in a year when he was appointed and the latest one struck by the malaise which seems to run deep. Remember, this is a club which finished ninth in the Premier League for the third year running in 2016 under Mark Hughes. Where has it all gone so wrong? How has it been allowed to get to this? Why are so many experienced players, many signed at high cost, finding it so difficult to perform? It is like Superman’s struggles with Kryptonite when many of these players pull on the Stoke jersey. When they leave, their powers seem to return. Benik Afobe, a £12 million signing, already has three goals on loan at Bristol City, while Erik Pieters - previously a member of Stoke’s ‘bomb squad’ - is now at Burnley with his new team-mates finding it inexplicable that he was jettisoned by a Championship club. And then there are the continuing tales of poor discipline and mutiny. These stories were sadly rife during Stoke’s relegation campaign and continued last season, too. One player allegedly refused to take part in a warm-down session after a game as he had a flight to catch. Another player, out of the first-team picture, told Gary Rowett to his face during talks over his future that he was happy to stick around as he was convinced the manager would soon be sacked. One other racked up fines over the season of over £100,000. These antics bred resentment in the dressing room - see recent comments from Glen Johnson, Charlie Adam and Peter Crouch - and served to spread the apathy. Recruitment, plus the departures of experienced professionals such as Jon Walters, Glenn Whelan and Phil Bardsley, were held up as huge mitigating factors. Jones’s predecessor, Rowett, identified some of these issues quickly but was booted out after one too many darts at the fans. Rowett lost only three league games in his last 17 - which almost seems Guardiolaesque in these troubled times - but he was sacked due to perceived poor results for a team with promotion ambitions, a lack of entertainment and a failure to get his expensively assembled squad to gel. Was he harshly treated? Possibly, yes. Behind the scenes it is understood he was calling out how he saw the problems and challenging the club’s hierarchy to change things. Maybe he was a convenient patsy, but it’s history now and hindsight can be wonderful. The focus must now be on Jones, and how he extricates himself from this mess. After the short reigns of Paul Lambert and Rowett, he will surely be given time. In his defence, Jones insists the atmosphere and working environment is now far better than when he came in. Stoke are also battling to offload the remaining members of the ‘bomb squad’ (Giannelli Imbula, Kevin Wimmer, Moritz Bauer, Mame Biram Diouf and Bruno Martins Indi) before the European deadline on September 2. Jones will soon be joined by a former colleague, Phil Chapple, who is coming in as a director of football/recruitment chief, which suggests backing from the board remains. There is unquestionably a good manager there - talk to anyone who witnessed his teams at Luton - who has maybe lost his way a bit. The recruitment over the summer was sensible and steady, largely relying on no-frills signings who know the league. Newcastle striker Dwight Gayle would have been the dream final signing, but the EFL’s new rules on spending made it incredibly difficult to pull off. Jones needs a win from somewhere, anywhere, and quickly. Late last season he insisted he would get it right, and it is only five games in. There are many good characters and players in the squad, who now need to step up. It cannot always be the manager's fault. The board must also show leadership and authority. The Coates family, namely chairman Peter and his son John, will be in turmoil over this - fans could questions some of their decisions, but never their backing or commitment. They are lifelong fans and will remember the dark days of the early 90s, when Stoke last operated in the third tier. They will know, more than anybody, that a return to that division would be a disaster. At the moment, it is all a bit of a mess. Or, to pinch a quote from the Coen brothers's film No Country For Old Men, "if it ain't, it'll do 'til the mess gets here." |
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Aug 26, 2019 7:20:25 GMT
Lazy journalism - we weren’t moaning about identity when we were out playing some of the best teams in the country. We did have three successive 9th place finishes after TP, the media seem to forget. Truthful journalism. The whole article. The truth hurts. It’s spot on on the whole (especially the bit about needing a Webber type with some vision) but that bit that it’s all been shit since Pulis left patently isn’t. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2019 7:20:40 GMT
That last sentence is the biggest question mark......”aslong as the players are with you”
I’m praying that they are
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Aug 26, 2019 7:21:24 GMT
Percy article in the Telegraph, behind a paywall though. 'It wasn't my mate Gary's fault' Absolute bollocks Percy. Yeah I took him to task about that on Twitter and it became clear he didn’t really know what he was talking about. Bit of a surprise as he normally knows his onions. |
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Post by greyman on Aug 26, 2019 7:23:09 GMT
Truthful journalism. The whole article. The truth hurts. It’s spot on on the whole (especially the bit about needing a Webber type with some vision) but that bit that it’s all been shit since Pulis left patently isn’t. That's now the narrative for some people, that it immediately went to shit after Pulis. Excusable to some degree for people with little interest or knowledge but baffling to hear it come from our own supporters. |
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Post by FullerMagic on Aug 26, 2019 7:24:20 GMT
Not sure JP's analysis is up to much at all there, apart from revealing he gets on with Rowett. Clearly better for transfer exclusives.
"There is no suggestion at this point that Jones is in danger.."
Well, why on earth would there be? Blimey.
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Post by Mr_DaftBurger on Aug 26, 2019 7:30:20 GMT
"Behind the scenes it is understood he was calling out how he saw the problems and challenging the club’s hierarchy to change things."
This, to me, identifies the main problem!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2019 7:39:27 GMT
'It wasn't my mate Gary's fault' Absolute bollocks Percy. Yeah I took him to task about that on Twitter and it became clear he didn’t really know what he was talking about. Bit of a surprise as he normally knows his onions. Yeah I saw that Rob and said on a thread on here that I thought his reply was a bit ingenious* to your excellent point you were making. *Stunning predictive text. 'disingenuous' |
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Post by amathus on Aug 26, 2019 7:40:55 GMT
"Behind the scenes it is understood he was calling out how he saw the problems and challenging the club’s hierarchy to change things." This, to me, identifies the main problem! This this this and this. Jones is not the problem........ It's not the squad that needs the overhaul, it's the way the club is run. Cartwright's departure is a step in the right direction but far too late and he's a Scholes scapegoat. |
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Post by thefarpost on Aug 26, 2019 7:45:32 GMT
"Behind the scenes it is understood he was calling out how he saw the problems and challenging the club’s hierarchy to change things." This, to me, identifies the main problem!
Bojan, Afobe and even Berahino are all scoring now that they have shaken off Stoke's curse
SCFC need an outside organization (management consultant type) to come in and root out the problem
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Aug 26, 2019 7:48:22 GMT
"Behind the scenes it is understood he was calling out how he saw the problems and challenging the club’s hierarchy to change things." This, to me, identifies the main problem!
Bojan, Afobe and even Berahino are all scoring now that they have shaken off Stoke's curse
SCFC need an outside organization (management consultant type) to come in and root out the problem
To be fair Bojan didn’t get the chance and Afobe has one more goal than he did for us this time last year. Berahino is an arsehole. |
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Post by GreaterGlasgowstokie on Aug 26, 2019 7:48:46 GMT
Those examples Percy gives about the players lack of professionalism. They all relate to one player don't they? Berahino?
I think rowett fucked up massively in the transfer window, and jones has just brought in freebies that don't deal with the problems, but this lot don't seem to be a bad bunch, just not very good
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