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Post by mrred on Aug 4, 2019 10:12:02 GMT
I would have said 2 seasons or 3 transfer windows. We're still in a right fucking mess and have been for over 3 years. That needs consistency. However he's completely shit the bed with his constant promises and big talk. He's fucked himself over from day one. - Having a team to be proud of. - Fast paced, attacking football - Luton were the second highest scorers in the FL behind Man City, watch this space. - Next season will be different. - Big change in culture from top to bottom. - Players look exceptional in training / pre-season Then we get the same shit as last season, yesterday? Couldnt have failed harder if he tried. I want this to work out because wherever we go from there managerial wise is scary. But fuck me if he hasn't set himself up for a fail. The chest pumping after the Leeds game said it all to me. He looked absolutely fucking terrified during his interview post match. Why are you comparing everything he has said on 60 minutes of yesterday’s match? We have played one competitive fixture this season for fucks sake. Because he's been here since January and theres a massive disparity between what he's saying to what is happening on the pitch. Yester could have been lifted from any matc last season and no one would know any different.
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Post by cousindupree on Aug 4, 2019 10:21:11 GMT
yesterday was a real shock. Not just because we lost to a team that will be struggling in the lower half of the league but the performance. After half a season, almost a full transfer window and a pre-season of coaching and drilling his players, yesterday was truly groundhog day. You could have cut and pasted a number of last seasons poor performances and placed it at the Bet 365 yesterday. How can simply NOTHING have improved? Jones is an inexperienced manager and has shown to be quite naive at times with subs and tactics, but I think he is a quick learner and maybe he can grow into being a capable manager at this level. He sees one of his strengths as being self belief in his methods and philosophy, it's an admirable quality. However experience will gradually tell him that flexibility and acceptance that maybe not everything he believes is right and it's how you react to that and change that defines you. He has some seemingly dogmatic views...the diamond system, no loanees, no overseas players. He needs to accept if he hasn't got the players for his system he simply has to change. Also loanees and overseas players if astutely recruited are part of the make up of a successful side at this level. Both Leeds and Fulham this season and Derby last season have made smart loan moves, why not Nathan please explain? We have to stick with him lets face it the Coates's track record of appointing managers has been pretty poor, there is no evidence with John Coates (who recruited Lambert and Rowett!) that they will get a replacement right.
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Post by tony1234 on Aug 4, 2019 10:22:57 GMT
Its premature, I know, but the next big question is:- if the diamond really isn't going to work for the reasons we all know, then will NJ change it in time? Its a fundamental fact that we need a system that best suits our best players. And that's tricky because, our best players (from past performances) include Ince, Woods, N'Diaye and Clucas - who have hardly been stellar - as well as Etebo. Perhaps the challenge NJ ought to adopt now though is to get players who have proven their ability to be good or outstanding Champs players playing to their potential, using whatever system it takes, rather than seeing the challenge as fitting everyone into the diamond, irrespective of what they are good at. If I was sitting down now with NJ over a scotch, i think i'd be suggesting:- there is a good chance the diamond won't work and it will cost you your job sooner or later. You might want to consider, for the rest of the window, any players you might need to make a fist of a Plan B. Personally, I'd be after a left sided, goal scoring attacking midfielder with some pace and guile, (backed up by Verlinden); and trying to persuade N'Diaye to give it one last shot. Just in case of course. Otherwise, am not sure he'll have anywhere to go if it doesn't click. Something like.... Butland Edwards Batth Lindsay Clucas Etebo N'Diaye Ince Powell ???? Gregory or Campbell ???? = Loan for Harry Wilson, Robbie Brady, Jordan Ibe, Tom Lawrence, Junior Hoilett, .... If we played that formation he would pick MacLean Well, if he does need to change the system and players - and doesn't - it will only be pride. "Clothe yourself with humility" Peter 5:5 or, read the story of Lord Raglan and the Charge of the Light Brigade - www.historyextra.com/period/victorian/the-charge-of-the-light-brigade-who-blundered-in-the-valley-of-death/The interesting thing about our squad is that we actually still have in our ranks 80-90% of a good team (as I think the one above would be). We also have about 8 players who are useless or don't work for us. A few more games like yesterday, and i suspect this season might reach a "make or break moment" faster than i'd envisaged.
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Post by itsajoytobeapotter on Aug 4, 2019 10:30:17 GMT
Here we go again. Jones NEEDS 3 seasons and 5 windows to turn us into Luton Isnt this what the Choirboys wanted ? You mean League 2 Champions?
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Post by thevoid on Aug 4, 2019 10:34:41 GMT
Based on the youthful, pacey team he assembled at Luton I expected him to at least have begun the building blocks of something similar here but a lot of his signings have been immobile plodders- Batth, Vokes, Cousins (I'll reserve judgement on Gregory) or hasbeens (Ward). And McClean has not got the nous to learn a new role, he's an Average Joe in his specialist one. Jones is a walking contradiction and he's starting to get on my tits.
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Post by numberounominion on Aug 4, 2019 11:22:09 GMT
He has a good crop of youngsters... Edwards Collins verlinden Campbell sorensen
He doesn't play them
He plays overpaid over rated past it ( ' experienced ') overpriced professionals from elsewhere
Meanwhile the youngsters will be moved on to succeed elsewhere
Total fuckwittery
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Post by sealion100 on Aug 4, 2019 11:47:13 GMT
Enter Ashley Williams Thursday 5pm
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Post by Gary Hackett on Aug 4, 2019 12:00:30 GMT
He's not going anywhere, there's no way the board will fire another manager unless we're looking at relegation in the new year.
We have to hope Jones learns very quickly and is prepared to be flexible to change things when he realises he's not the messiah and can't always turn shit into gold.
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Post by nonameface on Aug 4, 2019 12:05:08 GMT
Should never have sacked Rowett, once he was sacked however Jones was and still is a decent appointment. These managers need time, there's been too much wrong to fix quickly. So long as we aren't getting relegated he should get the season.
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Post by crapslinger on Aug 4, 2019 12:07:11 GMT
He's not going anywhere, there's no way the board will fire another manager unless we're looking at relegation in the new year. We have to hope Jones learns very quickly and is prepared to be flexible to change things when he realises he's not the messiah and can't always turn shit into gold. It seems more likely that he will turn potential gold to shit at the moment, dropping Edwards for Smith is incompetence.
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Post by stokeykez on Aug 4, 2019 12:12:49 GMT
He's not going anywhere, there's no way the board will fire another manager unless we're looking at relegation in the new year. We have to hope Jones learns very quickly and is prepared to be flexible to change things when he realises he's not the messiah and can't always turn shit into gold. It seems more likely that he will turn potential gold to shit at the moment, dropping Edwards for Smith is incompetence. Persistently stubborn with a formation that leaves us very vulnerable. Wouldn't mind if we were shit hot and could saturate defensive vulnerabilities but how eze ran straight through our defence like a big kid in a little kids game was flabbergasting, especially given that he bosdrf the game on both occasions we played them last year. Stubborn managers will bring a team down, play like we did in the last 30 minutes and we would not have lost that game. Training on the diamond formation and competing on matchday with the formation are poles apart. I've always supported NJ but if his stubbornness means we are going to be brushed aside as easy as yesterday patience will run out.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2019 12:31:06 GMT
IMHO we stick with Jones.
But, if the consensus is we should sack him, realistically (and that is the key word), would you replace him with?
As I say, I would stick with him, just interested in others views.
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Post by sealion100 on Aug 4, 2019 13:05:02 GMT
Till after the forest game .. if nothings changed then it’s time !
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Post by sheds1862 on Aug 4, 2019 13:06:30 GMT
IMHO we stick with Jones. But, if the consensus is we should sack him, realistically (and that is the key word), would you replace him with? As I say, I would stick with him, just interested in others views. Stick at the moment. Chris Hughton or the smug Gary Monk
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Post by thunderduck on Aug 4, 2019 13:08:15 GMT
We've had a good three years of rot, and it would be naive to expect us to just turn that around on a dime - yesterday was the first game of a long season, look at any of the teams promoted in the last couple of years and how they started, a bad lose early on does not necessarily define a season. With regards to the diamond, he was unable to play it at all last season due to the generally horrendous state the club and its players were in, and a few kickabouts in preseason were definitely not enough for the group to be able to pick it up and execute it to the required level yesterday. That is obviously shit, but it doesn't mean that he needs sacking and for us to turn into another modern club that chops and changes systems and managers whilst it slowly descends into the depths of the football league. We need time to rebuild, and that's what we're doing. It took Pulis two seasons to get us promoted, and Mark Hughes three seasons to undo it. We as a club need to be able to look further than a month, something the Coates family realised when they hired Jones, and now we as a supporter group need to as well. Which is very hard to do when we're presented with the shit that's been served up so far, but realism needs to enter our heads at some point. He definitely hasn't helped with his comments, but the situation is what it is and there are no easy answers, and we have to understand that
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Post by smallthorner on Aug 4, 2019 13:12:07 GMT
We've had a good three years of rot, and it would be naive to expect us to just turn that around on a dime - yesterday was the first game of a long season, look at any of the teams promoted in the last couple of years and how they started, a bad lose early on does not necessarily define a season. With regards to the diamond, he was unable to play it at all last season due to the generally horrendous state the club and its players were in, and a few kickabouts in preseason were definitely not enough for the group to be able to pick it up and execute it to the required level yesterday. That is obviously shit, but it doesn't mean that he needs sacking and for us to turn into another modern club that chops and changes systems and managers whilst it slowly descends into the depths of the football league. We need time to rebuild, and that's what we're doing. It took Pulis two seasons to get us promoted, and Mark Hughes three seasons to undo it. We as a club need to be able to look further than a month, something the Coates family realised when they hired Jones, and now we as a supporter group need to as well. Which is very hard to do when we're presented with the shit that's been served up so far, but realism needs to enter our heads at some point. He definitely hasn't helped with his comments, but the situation is what it is and there are no easy answers, and we have to understand that Signing some players with pace and who would fit the diamond would help though surely.
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Post by thunderduck on Aug 4, 2019 13:22:56 GMT
We've had a good three years of rot, and it would be naive to expect us to just turn that around on a dime - yesterday was the first game of a long season, look at any of the teams promoted in the last couple of years and how they started, a bad lose early on does not necessarily define a season. With regards to the diamond, he was unable to play it at all last season due to the generally horrendous state the club and its players were in, and a few kickabouts in preseason were definitely not enough for the group to be able to pick it up and execute it to the required level yesterday. That is obviously shit, but it doesn't mean that he needs sacking and for us to turn into another modern club that chops and changes systems and managers whilst it slowly descends into the depths of the football league. We need time to rebuild, and that's what we're doing. It took Pulis two seasons to get us promoted, and Mark Hughes three seasons to undo it. We as a club need to be able to look further than a month, something the Coates family realised when they hired Jones, and now we as a supporter group need to as well. Which is very hard to do when we're presented with the shit that's been served up so far, but realism needs to enter our heads at some point. He definitely hasn't helped with his comments, but the situation is what it is and there are no easy answers, and we have to understand that Signing some players with pace and who would fit the diamond would help though surely. I think the obsession with pace overlooks other footballing qualities that are needed to be successful at this level. The idea of the diamond is that you have a team press that cuts off the opposition and means you can get yourself into scoring positions more easily- once the first goal went in we basically lost all shape and become totally ineffective and had to watch QPR do to us what we were meant to be doing to them, controlling the game. McLean's runs were effective, and were it not for the strikers not really doing what they were meant to be doing the whole time, which is agreed a massive problem, we'd have probably had at least some better chances. Having pace won't solve the problem, the diamond's advantage is that it doesn't need players with super specific skill sets to play it, just discipline and effort, two things effectively non-existent at the club these past few years
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Post by dreamtheater on Aug 4, 2019 13:31:23 GMT
first ten games - by then we're either shaping up or sadly, hes shipping out - given our finances,
we simply cant afford to fall short again this season
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Post by LankyPotter on Aug 4, 2019 13:34:30 GMT
He gets at least a season, cannot keep chopping and changing.
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Post by numberounominion on Aug 4, 2019 13:35:05 GMT
Signing some players with pace and who would fit the diamond would help though surely. I think the obsession with pace overlooks other footballing qualities that are needed to be successful at this level. The idea of the diamond is that you have a team press that cuts off the opposition and means you can get yourself into scoring positions more easily- once the first goal went in we basically lost all shape and become totally ineffective and had to watch QPR do to us what we were meant to be doing to them, controlling the game. McLean's runs were effective, and were it not for the strikers not really doing what they were meant to be doing the whole time, which is agreed a massive problem, we'd have probably had at least some better chances. Having pace won't solve the problem, the diamond's advantage is that it doesn't need players with super specific skill sets to play it, just discipline and effort, two things effectively non-existent at the club these past few years By very definition a diamond is narrow You have two central ish players, let us say Clucas and Allen and then two more midfielders INSIDE your central two, one infront ( Powell) and one behind (cousins) . Every time you line up narrow, you are encouraging the opposition to get at you down the sides. Which is why almost no one plays this way and we have won 3 out of 22. And one of those wins was against spygate leeds United, where events at Clayton wood caused Nj to drop his diamond. Surely 2 wins in 21, a win rate of under ten per cent. Tells you, it just Aint working.
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Post by smallthorner on Aug 4, 2019 13:35:46 GMT
Signing some players with pace and who would fit the diamond would help though surely. I think the obsession with pace overlooks other footballing qualities that are needed to be successful at this level. The idea of the diamond is that you have a team press that cuts off the opposition and means you can get yourself into scoring positions more easily- once the first goal went in we basically lost all shape and become totally ineffective and had to watch QPR do to us what we were meant to be doing to them, controlling the game. McLean's runs were effective, and were it not for the strikers not really doing what they were meant to be doing the whole time, which is agreed a massive problem, we'd have probably had at least some better chances. Having pace won't solve the problem, the diamond's advantage is that it doesn't need players with super specific skill sets to play it, just discipline and effort, two things effectively non-existent at the club these past few years I'm obviously no expert but I don't necessarily agree with you. I reckon pace is a prerequisite of a successful team in this division. Are you saying that you don't need pace for this diamond formation.? Genuine question.
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Post by tony1234 on Aug 4, 2019 13:40:30 GMT
With the chairman down to the cleaner stating that promotion is this seasons aim, they can not fail to be alarmed by NJs record. So with this seasons objective and NJs current record in mind how on earth do you play this one? Do we go for the he will turn it around approach and use Christmas as a cut off?, do we accept that the task is huge and re-define this seasons objective? or do we follow the much trodden path of crisis clubs and sack him sooner rather than later? I honestly don’t have a clue how I feel about this, maybe the last 2 1/2 seasons have dumbed my SCFC senses, but apart from the self depreciating humour of another lame performance and defeat, I find myself caring less, and erring towards, just accept until we have got rid of all the deadwood, which may take 3 years, sorted out the finances and back room then our target is to survive in the championship. Strange times Why persevere with a lame duck manager? The cynic in me says - after Rowett, the job in hand is to prepare for an age in the Championship on wage levels at 30% of the PL. So, there was little point appointing an Allardyce, Moyes, Billic sort who'd want to spend and take more control. NJ's qualifications were to know lower league players very well (perhaps even offering the promise of recruiting 3-4 Luton players) and build a fit, determined, chipper team that punched above its weight. His qualities were not, on the other hand, motivating PL or top Championship standard players to give their all, doing well in the market of recruiting 5-10m players, getting up from the Championship, or having international contacts to get in loan signings from top clubs. (its not NJ's fault i hasten to add). So if you were Coates/Scholes, the reason to persevere now is the reason he's there in the first place. He's actually doing his job - recruiting his squad of waifs and strays. Results are secondary. Complicit with NJ, Scholes has now importantly managed to successfully position NJ, as the person to point fingers at if fans' exprectations are not met. Its all going as well as possible in terms of assembling a budget squad, while staying out of the firing line of fans' ire - Results on the pitch being a minor inconvenience. If they continue to go badly, well, .... he'd be confident of finding the next eager beaver young buck for standing in the firing line. Notice how the ire towards Scholes has dropped over the last 3-6 mths. Interesting.
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Post by palerider on Aug 4, 2019 15:08:30 GMT
I’m surprised a lot of fans are shocked that we lost yesterday ,we played the game with a weaker team than we Finished last season with and we all know how bad that was,,Smith for Edwards,wtf, no shawcross,McLean at fullback No Etebo,and still relying on voakes and afobe for goals, We need to get used to the fact that this is where we are right now,we cannot spend big because of ffp and we cannot shift The dead wood to release much needed funds,it took us twenty plus years to get it right before and those who were around During the storming of the waddo season have seen a lot worse, We need to show patience now and accept that success is not easy
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Post by loosestools on Aug 4, 2019 15:16:50 GMT
The manager who who shall not be mentioned was an expert at keeping the game in the narrow middle corridor and restricting width. Boring as it was.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2019 15:18:42 GMT
I think the obsession with pace overlooks other footballing qualities that are needed to be successful at this level. The idea of the diamond is that you have a team press that cuts off the opposition and means you can get yourself into scoring positions more easily- once the first goal went in we basically lost all shape and become totally ineffective and had to watch QPR do to us what we were meant to be doing to them, controlling the game. McLean's runs were effective, and were it not for the strikers not really doing what they were meant to be doing the whole time, which is agreed a massive problem, we'd have probably had at least some better chances. Having pace won't solve the problem, the diamond's advantage is that it doesn't need players with super specific skill sets to play it, just discipline and effort, two things effectively non-existent at the club these past few years I'm obviously no expert but I don't necessarily agree with you. I reckon pace is a prerequisite of a successful team in this division. Are you saying that you don't need pace for this diamond formation.? Genuine question. The ability to move the ball quickly is the key. No player can run as quickly as the ball can be played. Provided the players have a modicum of pace, which clearly they have, then the diamond ought to work.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2019 15:23:39 GMT
I'm obviously no expert but I don't necessarily agree with you. I reckon pace is a prerequisite of a successful team in this division. Are you saying that you don't need pace for this diamond formation.? Genuine question. The ability to move the ball quickly is the key. No player can run as quickly as the ball can be played. Provided the players have a modicum of pace, which clearly they have, then the diamond ought to work. Not this again. Yesterday clearly showed you do need pace and by pace I mean speed. Those two front men yesterday caused problems because they were fast. Our problem is by the time Afobe and Vokes have made to the box at least 6 members of the other team have managed to pack the penalty box.
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Post by iglugluk on Aug 4, 2019 15:24:40 GMT
It's hard to keep the faith with what he's selling.. He needs to sort things out quickly as far as I'm concerned as it seems he is currently peddling potential relegation
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Post by lawrieleslie on Aug 4, 2019 16:00:35 GMT
Got to give him another 9 games. It takes time for the new players to gel together and hope we add a couple more before the window closes. How many new players did QPR field yesterday that needed time to gel?
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Post by loosestools on Aug 4, 2019 16:02:06 GMT
Got to give him another 9 games. It takes time for the new players to gel together and hope we add a couple more before the window closes. How many new players did QPR field yesterday that needed time to gel? And did anyone know who they were?
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Post by Caerwrangonpotter on Aug 4, 2019 16:03:12 GMT
If things are that bad after 10 games, then so be it....Just remember that Stoke City don't do sackings when the fans want them even if it so blatantly obvious
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