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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jul 6, 2023 8:59:34 GMT
Not exactly Paul. Consult VAR Goal disallowed. Followed by own goal. Many Scots would vote for independence, as would many Irish irrespective of trade/ borders/ going into the unknown etc, as, imho, would have many South Africans, Indians etc.Many of the strughkes in the world are about identity and freedom. And Independence for the Scots and Irish would ( probably) cause change seismic change Sticking by the sovereignty argument and waiting for the tangible benefits is a lot more palatable if you're comfortably retired with a decent pension rather than in your early 20's and making your way in the world though would you agree? Those who are comfortably retired may just be doing what they think is right and every genetation of 20 year olds have had tge challenge to make their way in the world. I literslly have worked with 18-25 year olds at Umiversity for over 15 years and indeed they have challenges for the future...I have every sympathy with ALL young people...the ones I am working with are still pursuing careers in Law, the Environment , Vetinary training, Accountancy etc etc etc( I still have students doing years abroad). ...My neighbours are doing apprenticeships in Plumbing, as an electrician.Many, less qualified people, are forced into low paid service jobs....none of that has changed because of Brexit. Of course their are major changes because of Brexit, as there have been on entering the EU.....How we handle it is dependent upon many factors...some out of our control,some on political devisions , both of ourselves and other bodies because of the EU. And young people are not an homogenous group of victims, and are even capable of grasping opportunitues, changing their minds and being creative ( one 32 year old I have worked with , left university with a business degree, set up a business and ( and I am not lying) has a " portfolio of 10 houses and counting"( which I don't agree with by the way)....he did not make his money THROUGH housing but through the service industry and as his dad says, ' He works damn hard" Every generation of young people, indeed all people has its challenges, be glad you weren't born in 1930, or 1940 .....mind you , it would be easy to play the victim card then ( the New Left seems to rely on victims)...although that generation seemed to just get on with it.
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Post by str8outtahampton on Jul 6, 2023 9:02:49 GMT
I'll keep this very short so there is no ambiguity Decisions on CAP are not made in Brussels but by MPs You are arguing a case that doesn't exist Not true But I'm not even saying that. I'm talking about the knowledge and debate of CAP by ordinary people....but if you want to link our MPs ( or even MEP s in other countries) to CAP it is a very confluted and in fact disillusionary to say they have influence. But as I said to Oggy I'll try to keep off this tgread/ rerunning the 2016 election. It SEEMS that a good number of people think the EU is perfect....because it isn't us/ the UK, because we don't really know how it works and and because it is remote from us....one issue of the country is that we tend to leave things to MPs ...the EU takes that a whole lot further....and we certsinly don't need 2 parliaments, Remote Courts of Justice , Commissions ( a concept alien to the uk) etc..the democratic process needs to be kept as simple as possible. John, I suspect pretty much everyone on the planet thinks the EU is flawed. That’s not the key point, which is whether the UK is better or worse off outside it. It’s precisely because few people know how it works that the Leave campaign was able to peddle its lies - some of which you seem to have bought into. For example, Commissions are very familiar to the UK. The Commission is the EU’s civil service. And on a side point, despite what wretches like Farage and his mouthpieces would have you believe, it employs a small fraction of the number of people in the UK civil service. Not much point going into the nuances of the decision making process. Suffice to say that very many big issues require unanimity of elected member Governments). One of these is accession. In other words, the suggestion that 100m odd Turkish people might automatically have the right to live and work in the UK was a bare-faced lie. (The very essence of Project Fear). The UK Government could veto any proposal for Turkey to join. For me, the shame is less that we have left. More that the decision was taken on the basis of hugely misleading and untrue campaign. The truth is that nobody could predict the consequences (although the signs now look pretty grim). The benefits and risks couldn’t be quantified. So arguably the pitiful Project Fear slogan hurled out by Leave could have been re-branded as Project Prudent.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jul 6, 2023 9:07:13 GMT
I didn't say had a " say"..I said it was remote, people didn"t know what it was, were unable ti infuence it ( your MEP was imptent,) and it wasn't discussed. And also , it was highly criticised designed to help the French. And what we have now is remote, we weren’t able to influence and is significantly worse with around half the funding, as farmers have said. So we are all much worse off for it. All i am hearing from you is that because CAP involves foreigners, it is bad. Because our replacement doesn’t involve foreigners it is good. You don’t care that the thing replacing CAP is much worse. I haven't said CAP is bad, I' ve said that it has been highly criticised ( even by "foreigners") the ordinary UK people didn't relate to it, and don't know about it...the accusation you keep making about " Brexiteers not knowing what they voted for".neaithet do Eurofanatics, but the ststus quo is always easier...I don't know why you are bringing " foreigners" into it....but I do think your bitterness at losing the vote is causing you to be overly critical/ nasty against people who happen not to agree with you....you know " Brexiteers are thick , racists" As I say( again) I'm not reliving the 2016 Referendum....Surely , we will be back in following 2014 election.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jul 6, 2023 9:23:41 GMT
Not true But I'm not even saying that. I'm talking about the knowledge and debate of CAP by ordinary people....but if you want to link our MPs ( or even MEP s in other countries) to CAP it is a very confluted and in fact disillusionary to say they have influence. But as I said to Oggy I'll try to keep off this tgread/ rerunning the 2016 election. It SEEMS that a good number of people think the EU is perfect....because it isn't us/ the UK, because we don't really know how it works and and because it is remote from us....one issue of the country is that we tend to leave things to MPs ...the EU takes that a whole lot further....and we certsinly don't need 2 parliaments, Remote Courts of Justice , Commissions ( a concept alien to the uk) etc..the democratic process needs to be kept as simple as possible. John, I suspect pretty much everyone on the planet thinks the EU is flawed. That’s not the key point, which is whether the UK is better or worse off outside it. It’s precisely because few people know how it works that the Leave campaign was able to peddle its lies - some of which you seem to have bought into. For example, Commissions are very familiar to the UK. The Commission is the EU’s civil service. And on a side point, despite what wretches like Farage and his mouthpieces would have you believe, it employs a small fraction of the number of people in the UK civil service. Not much point going into the nuances of the decision making process. Suffice to say that very many big issues require unanimity of elected member Governments). One of these is accession. In other words, the suggestion that 100m odd Turkish people might automatically have the right to live and work in the UK was a bare-faced lie. (The very essence of Project Fear). The UK Government could veto any proposal for Turkey to join. For me, the shame is less that we have left. More that the decision was taken on the basis of hugely misleading and untrue campaign. The truth is that nobody could predict the consequences (although the signs now look pretty grim). The benefits and risks couldn’t be quantified. So arguably the pitiful Project Fear slogan hurled out by Leave could have been re-branded as Project Prudent. Ive only read to what you say is the key point.....the key point of the referendum was whether the UK wanted to remain in the EU, an organisation whose aims are political and economic union...it is possible not to want that.....the same as an Irish person may want independence from the UK...Irrespective of trade, borders, the unknown future etc
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jul 6, 2023 9:30:02 GMT
Not true But I'm not even saying that. I'm talking about the knowledge and debate of CAP by ordinary people....but if you want to link our MPs ( or even MEP s in other countries) to CAP it is a very confluted and in fact disillusionary to say they have influence. But as I said to Oggy I'll try to keep off this tgread/ rerunning the 2016 election. It SEEMS that a good number of people think the EU is perfect....because it isn't us/ the UK, because we don't really know how it works and and because it is remote from us....one issue of the country is that we tend to leave things to MPs ...the EU takes that a whole lot further....and we certsinly don't need 2 parliaments, Remote Courts of Justice , Commissions ( a concept alien to the uk) etc..the democratic process needs to be kept as simple as possible. John, I suspect pretty much everyone on the planet thinks the EU is flawed. That’s not the key point, which is whether the UK is better or worse off outside it. It’s precisely because few people know how it works that the Leave campaign was able to peddle its lies - some of which you seem to have bought into. For example, Commissions are very familiar to the UK. The Commission is the EU’s civil service. And on a side point, despite what wretches like Farage and his mouthpieces would have you believe, it employs a small fraction of the number of people in the UK civil service. Not much point going into the nuances of the decision making process. Suffice to say that very many big issues require unanimity of elected member Governments). One of these is accession. In other words, the suggestion that 100m odd Turkish people might automatically have the right to live and work in the UK was a bare-faced lie. (The very essence of Project Fear). The UK Government could veto any proposal for Turkey to join. For me, the shame is less that we have left. More that the decision was taken on the basis of hugely misleading and untrue campaign. The truth is that nobody could predict the consequences (although the signs now look pretty grim). The benefits and risks couldn’t be quantified. So arguably the pitiful Project Fear slogan hurled out by Leave could have been re-branded as Project Prudent. Readung the rest the Cimmission certainly is not the same as the Civil service. We do not need two ststems. And the important thing to remember about the EU ( and probably politics in general)...is tgst it changes, the direction of travel, Ever closer union....YOU might not believe it ,but I believe we would have been required to join the Euro in the future AND not to do so would have left us on the periphery, and our politicians woukd have colluded " in our interests"..I don't want that. The very fact that EU armies, Turkey wanting to join shows the direction of travel( I've got nothing whstsoever against Turkey) It is a pity that we did not have such passion when we joined the EEC and more importsntly when it morphed into the EU
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jul 6, 2023 10:07:31 GMT
Not true But I'm not even saying that. I'm talking about the knowledge and debate of CAP by ordinary people....but if you want to link our MPs ( or even MEP s in other countries) to CAP it is a very confluted and in fact disillusionary to say they have influence. But as I said to Oggy I'll try to keep off this tgread/ rerunning the 2016 election. It SEEMS that a good number of people think the EU is perfect....because it isn't us/ the UK, because we don't really know how it works and and because it is remote from us....one issue of the country is that we tend to leave things to MPs ...the EU takes that a whole lot further....and we certsinly don't need 2 parliaments, Remote Courts of Justice , Commissions ( a concept alien to the uk) etc..the democratic process needs to be kept as simple as possible. John, I suspect pretty much everyone on the planet thinks the EU is flawed. That’s not the key point, which is whether the UK is better or worse off outside it. It’s precisely because few people know how it works that the Leave campaign was able to peddle its lies - some of which you seem to have bought into. For example, Commissions are very familiar to the UK. The Commission is the EU’s civil service. And on a side point, despite what wretches like Farage and his mouthpieces would have you believe, it employs a small fraction of the number of people in the UK civil service. Not much point going into the nuances of the decision making process. Suffice to say that very many big issues require unanimity of elected member Governments). One of these is accession. In other words, the suggestion that 100m odd Turkish people might automatically have the right to live and work in the UK was a bare-faced lie. (The very essence of Project Fear). The UK Government could veto any proposal for Turkey to join. For me, the shame is less that we have left. More that the decision was taken on the basis of hugely misleading and untrue campaign. The truth is that nobody could predict the consequences (although the signs now look pretty grim). The benefits and risks couldn’t be quantified. So arguably the pitiful Project Fear slogan hurled out by Leave could have been re-branded as Project Prudent. And also this refetence to the misleading campaign ( whuch had been discussed many times)....you could say....people got from it what they wanted, inho many many people made up their minds WITHOUT reference to the campaign...ie as has been said in the past, for many the decision was an emotional one ( whether you want now to open the doors to the debate ' was that a wise basis to go forward ' is entirely up to you)...for many British people instinctively....they do not want to be part of EUROPE ( as they see the EU)...you might not like that, but I believe that. Also there WAS tremendous pressure from ALL the main parties to remain....yet ordinary people decided they did not want to. Really, The issue now is how do we move forward as a country...there is absolutely nothing wrong with a political party putting in its manifesto a commitment to " start the process of joining the EU within the lifetime of the government"...or promising a referendum , instead of the constant moaning " I told you so"....but perhaps this time we could fully embrace " Europe" and its ideals , the Euro, free movement , precedence of the Court of Justice, Ever Closer Union....what's wrong with that?
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Jul 6, 2023 10:10:53 GMT
Not true But I'm not even saying that. I'm talking about the knowledge and debate of CAP by ordinary people....but if you want to link our MPs ( or even MEP s in other countries) to CAP it is a very confluted and in fact disillusionary to say they have influence. But as I said to Oggy I'll try to keep off this tgread/ rerunning the 2016 election. It SEEMS that a good number of people think the EU is perfect....because it isn't us/ the UK, because we don't really know how it works and and because it is remote from us....one issue of the country is that we tend to leave things to MPs ...the EU takes that a whole lot further....and we certsinly don't need 2 parliaments, Remote Courts of Justice , Commissions ( a concept alien to the uk) etc..the democratic process needs to be kept as simple as possible. John, I suspect pretty much everyone on the planet thinks the EU is flawed. That’s not the key point, which is whether the UK is better or worse off outside it. It’s precisely because few people know how it works that the Leave campaign was able to peddle its lies - some of which you seem to have bought into. For example, Commissions are very familiar to the UK. The Commission is the EU’s civil service. And on a side point, despite what wretches like Farage and his mouthpieces would have you believe, it employs a small fraction of the number of people in the UK civil service. Not much point going into the nuances of the decision making process. Suffice to say that very many big issues require unanimity of elected member Governments). One of these is accession. In other words, the suggestion that 100m odd Turkish people might automatically have the right to live and work in the UK was a bare-faced lie. (The very essence of Project Fear). The UK Government could veto any proposal for Turkey to join. For me, the shame is less that we have left. More that the decision was taken on the basis of hugely misleading and untrue campaign. The truth is that nobody could predict the consequences (although the signs now look pretty grim). The benefits and risks couldn’t be quantified. So arguably the pitiful Project Fear slogan hurled out by Leave could have been re-branded as Project Prudent. Excellent summary.
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Post by gawa on Jul 6, 2023 10:11:33 GMT
Sticking by the sovereignty argument and waiting for the tangible benefits is a lot more palatable if you're comfortably retired with a decent pension rather than in your early 20's and making your way in the world though would you agree? And young people are not an homogenous group of victims, and are even capable of grasping opportunitues, changing their minds and being creative ( one 32 year old I have worked with , left university with a business degree, set up a business and ( and I am not lying) has a " portfolio of 10 houses and counting"( which I don't agree with by the way)....he did not make his money THROUGH housing but through the service industry and as his dad says, ' He works damn hard" Every generation of young people, indeed all people has its challenges, be glad you weren't born in 1930, or 1940 .....mind you , it would be easy to play the victim card then ( the New Left seems to rely on victims)...although that generation seemed to just get on with it. This is incredibly insulting to young people and shows the selfish attitude of people from older generations. But any way please do tell me about these new opportunities which Brexit has presented me?
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jul 6, 2023 10:13:04 GMT
And young people are not an homogenous group of victims, and are even capable of grasping opportunitues, changing their minds and being creative ( one 32 year old I have worked with , left university with a business degree, set up a business and ( and I am not lying) has a " portfolio of 10 houses and counting"( which I don't agree with by the way)....he did not make his money THROUGH housing but through the service industry and as his dad says, ' He works damn hard" Every generation of young people, indeed all people has its challenges, be glad you weren't born in 1930, or 1940 .....mind you , it would be easy to play the victim card then ( the New Left seems to rely on victims)...although that generation seemed to just get on with it. This is incredibly insulting to young people and shows the selfish attitude of people from older generations. But any way please do tell me about these new opportunities which Brexit has presented me? I don't think it is insulting in anyway. Quite the opposite, I have nothing but admiration for this young generation. ( as a bit of an aside this year I am working with 2 trainee medics, 3 vets, and 1 law student....absolutely incredible, hard working, clever, thoughtful young people... and therecare many mire across other disciplines) I think you'll have to find your own opportunitues...I'm not aware of your circumstances
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Post by gawa on Jul 6, 2023 10:24:04 GMT
This is incredibly insulting to young people and shows the selfish attitude of people from older generations. But any way please do tell me about these new opportunities which Brexit has presented me? I don't think it is insulting in anyway. Quite the opposite, I have nothing but admiration for this young generation. I think you'll have to find your own opportunitues...I'm not aware of your circumstances Of course you don't because as long as you're not being fucked over you don't really care about anyone else. Everyone else is a victim because big John is OK. Your generation are a bunch of fucking dossers where most of the families only had one parent working full time because they're lazy and for most of the working age they had record unemployment and sat around dossing living off housing benefits and cheap social housing. And if they dared had any health issues they actually had a doctor they could see same day. I don't need to be lectured about being a victim from a generation of lazy dossers. Sorry but if you want to label a whole generation as victims then I'll tell you some home truths about the boomers who have had everything handed to them on a plate and it's always everyone else's fault. It's the Eus fault is it. Or is it the tories fault cause they did brexit wrong? The wrong brexit. Yeh. Never your fault though because everything you have you worked hard for and everyone else is just a victim. There's no chance at all bigjohn got it easy. He just worked hard than everyone else and they're all victims.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jul 6, 2023 10:31:57 GMT
I don't think it is insulting in anyway. Quite the opposite, I have nothing but admiration for this young generation. I think you'll have to find your own opportunitues...I'm not aware of your circumstances Of course you don't because as long as you're not being fucked over you don't really care about anyone else. Everyone else is a victim because big John is OK. Your generation are a bunch of fucking dossers where most of the families only had one parent working full time because they're lazy and for most of the working age they had record unemployment and sat around dossing living off housing benefits and cheap social housing. And if they dared had any health issues they actually had a doctor they could see same day. I don't need to be lectured about being a victim from a generation of lazy dossers. That's your opinion, but things are not quite like that. A bit of a ridiculous statement really, not even relevant to the EU....but I don't think most of my generation are dossers etc who had it easy, a slight exagerration I think ( also very insulting to a lot of hard working, working class people who also did not have it easy,) . ....you sound a bit like a victim....Important to me, My dad was a miner for 47 years in council housing in Fegg Hayes, most of our neighbours were similar He had to do his best to earn a living for his family....most working class people have to do the same pre and post Brexit. Now you have edited it , you seem to want to attack the boomers.....actually I agree with some of that the immediate past generations have not done this generation any favours in many many ways...but that is a much much wider issue than Brexit. I don't see the point of getting too personal about me, 7 years after the referendum, I think a few people voted leave for different reasons, it isn't very healthy to carry alot of hatred imo Am interesting perspective on Victimhood by the Communist Brexiteer, Claire Fox. philosophynow.org/issues/120/I_Find_That_Offensive_by_Claire_Fox
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Post by yeswilko on Jul 6, 2023 10:35:27 GMT
Of course you don't because as long as you're not being fucked over you don't really care about anyone else. Everyone else is a victim because big John is OK. Your generation are a bunch of fucking dossers where most of the families only had one parent working full time because they're lazy and for most of the working age they had record unemployment and sat around dossing living off housing benefits and cheap social housing. And if they dared had any health issues they actually had a doctor they could see same day. I don't need to be lectured about being a victim from a generation of lazy dossers. That's your opinion, but things are not quite like that. A bit of a ridiculous statement really, not even relevant to the EU....but I don't think most of my generation are dossers etc who had it easy, a slight exagerration I think . ....you soubd a bit like a victim....Important to me, My dad was a miner for 47 years in council housing in Fegg Hayes, most of our neighbours were similar He had to do his best to earn a living for his family....most working class people have to do the same pre and post Brexit Encouraged to make their situation worse by that scumbag Farage. I think we can all agree he's not working class.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jul 6, 2023 10:37:49 GMT
That's your opinion, but things are not quite like that. A bit of a ridiculous statement really, not even relevant to the EU....but I don't think most of my generation are dossers etc who had it easy, a slight exagerration I think . ....you soubd a bit like a victim....Important to me, My dad was a miner for 47 years in council housing in Fegg Hayes, most of our neighbours were similar He had to do his best to earn a living for his family....most working class people have to do the same pre and post Brexit Encouraged to make their situation worse by that scumbag Farage. I think we can all agree he's not working class. Nor is Corbyn, Fox, Galloway and Lynch?...and the Labour party itself, whose recommendation was to vote Remain. It seems it has got to be personal against Farage
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Post by phileetin on Jul 6, 2023 11:03:12 GMT
Of course you don't because as long as you're not being fucked over you don't really care about anyone else. Everyone else is a victim because big John is OK. Your generation are a bunch of fucking dossers where most of the families only had one parent working full time because they're lazy and for most of the working age they had record unemployment and sat around dossing living off housing benefits and cheap social housing. And if they dared had any health issues they actually had a doctor they could see same day. I don't need to be lectured about being a victim from a generation of lazy dossers. That's your opinion, but things are not quite like that. A bit of a ridiculous statement really, not even relevant to the EU....but I don't think most of my generation are dossers etc who had it easy, a slight exagerration I think . ....you soubd a bit like a victim....Important to me, My dad was a miner for 47 years in council housing in Fegg Hayes, most of our neighbours were similar He had to do his best to earn a living for his family....most working class people have to do the same pre and post Brexit. Now you have edited it , you seem to want to attack the boomers.....actually I agree with some of that the immediate past generations have not done this generation any favours in many many ways...but that is a much much wider issue than Brexit. I don't see the point of getting too personal about me, 7 years after the referendum, I think a few people voted leave for different reasons, it isn't very healthy to carry alot of hstred imo there's no point presenting different views on this thread it always degenerates into personal insults and abuse .
The main thing i've noticed is despite the thread being 1100 pages long its the same dozen or so posters who are pedalling their views throughout so it doesn't look as if thay have persuaded any body to their cause.
i,ve come to the conclusion that its best to avoid voicing an opinion and let the regulars on this thread wallow in their mutually shared misery.
sorry should be the government shambles thread but same argumment applies.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jul 6, 2023 11:16:13 GMT
That's your opinion, but things are not quite like that. A bit of a ridiculous statement really, not even relevant to the EU....but I don't think most of my generation are dossers etc who had it easy, a slight exagerration I think . ....you soubd a bit like a victim....Important to me, My dad was a miner for 47 years in council housing in Fegg Hayes, most of our neighbours were similar He had to do his best to earn a living for his family....most working class people have to do the same pre and post Brexit. Now you have edited it , you seem to want to attack the boomers.....actually I agree with some of that the immediate past generations have not done this generation any favours in many many ways...but that is a much much wider issue than Brexit. I don't see the point of getting too personal about me, 7 years after the referendum, I think a few people voted leave for different reasons, it isn't very healthy to carry alot of hstred imo there's no point presenting different views on this thread it always degenerates into personal insults and abuse .
The main thing i've noticed is despite the thread being 1100 pages long its the same dozen or so posters who are pedalling their views throughout so it doesn't look as if thay have persuaded any body to their cause.
i,ve come to the conclusion that its best to avoid voicing an opinion and let the regulars on this thread wallow in their mutually shared misery.
sorry should be the government shambles thread but same argumment applies.
Perhaps the most sendible post on here
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jul 6, 2023 11:17:00 GMT
Just for a change, how about attacking Farage's ultra right wing mate.
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Post by wannabee on Jul 6, 2023 11:22:11 GMT
I'll keep this very short so there is no ambiguity Decisions on CAP are not made in Brussels but by MPs You are arguing a case that doesn't exist Not true But I'm not even saying that. I'm talking about the knowledge and debate of CAP by ordinary people....but if you want to link our MPs ( or even MEP s in other countries) to CAP it is a very confluted and in fact disillusionary to say they have influence. But as I said to Oggy I'll try to keep off this tgread/ rerunning the 2016 election. It SEEMS that a good number of people think the EU is perfect....because it isn't us/ the UK, because we don't really know how it works and and because it is remote from us....one issue of the country is that we tend to leave things to MPs ...the EU takes that a whole lot further....and we certsinly don't need 2 parliaments, Remote Courts of Justice , Commissions ( a concept alien to the uk) etc..the democratic process needs to be kept as simple as possible. You said Not true .... Of course it's true, I'm not surprised you are unwilling to debate when you are unable to accept Basic matter of Fact EU countries implement the CAP 2023-27 with a CAP Strategic Plan at national level Each Plan combines a wide range of targeted interventions addressing the specific needs of that EU country and deliver tangible results in relation to EU-level objectives, while contributing to the ambitions of the European Green Deal.EU countries were required to produce a thorough assessment of what must be done, based on a strengths, weaknesses, opportunities and threats (SWOT) analysis of their territory and agri-food sector. They were given until 31 December 2021 to submit their CAP Strategic Plans. Following this, the Commission had six months to approve the Plans ahead of their implementation in January 2023. The approval process was based on the criteria laid down in Regulation (EU) 2021/2115 establishing rules on support for strategic plans to be drawn up by EU countries under the common agricultural policy (CAP Strategic Plans). The Commission assessed whether the EU countries’ CAP Strategic Plans contribute to, and are consistent with, EU legislation and commitments in relation to climate and the environment, including those laid out in the Farm to Fork and Biodiversity strategies. The Commission supported EU countries throughout the whole process of preparation of their CAP Strategic Plan so that:• EU countries take full advantage of the CAP 2023-27 and its instruments to support their farmers in the transition towards increased sustainability in our food systems. • Each CAP Strategic Plan includes an intervention strategy explaining how each EU country will use CAP instruments to achieve the CAP objectives, in keeping with the Green Deal ambitions. agriculture.ec.europa.eu/cap-my-country/cap-strategic-plans_enI don't think anyone is claiming EU is perfect, no system of Governance is, but you need to compare if you change what is the alternative you end up with, hence "be careful what you wish for" The reason people generally, apart from lobbying, leave things to MPs is that is the system of Governance we have chosen I.e Parliamentary Democracy where the chosen MPs is entrusted to vote on behalf of all Constituents You do realise that UK has left EU but UK has not left ECJ ? as a consequence of signing a Trade and Cooperation Agreement TCA and UK appoints 3 Judges to that Court The European Court of Human Rights ECHR has nothing to do with EU it is part of Council of Europe which Churchill was one of its prime movers in establishing. All European Countries except Russia and Belarus are members and it does what it says on the tin, make rulings on adherence to Human Rights.
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Post by yeswilko on Jul 6, 2023 11:24:19 GMT
Encouraged to make their situation worse by that scumbag Farage. I think we can all agree he's not working class. Nor is Corbyn, Fox, Galloway and Lynch?...and the Labour party itself, whose recommendation was to vote Remain. It seems it has got to be personal against Farage Mostly with Farage it was his method to get the votes. Blaming everything on foreigners and immigration isn't exactly genius but it works. The breaking point poster was vile.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jul 6, 2023 11:34:14 GMT
Not true But I'm not even saying that. I'm talking about the knowledge and debate of CAP by ordinary people....but if you want to link our MPs ( or even MEP s in other countries) to CAP it is a very confluted and in fact disillusionary to say they have influence. But as I said to Oggy I'll try to keep off this tgread/ rerunning the 2016 election. It SEEMS that a good number of people think the EU is perfect....because it isn't us/ the UK, because we don't really know how it works and and because it is remote from us....one issue of the country is that we tend to leave things to MPs ...the EU takes that a whole lot further....and we certsinly don't need 2 parliaments, Remote Courts of Justice , Commissions ( a concept alien to the uk) etc..the democratic process needs to be kept as simple as possible. You said Not true .... Of course it's true, I'm not surprised you are unwilling to debate when you are unable to accept Basic matter of Fact EU countries implement the CAP 2023-27 with a CAP Strategic Plan at national level Each Plan combines a wide range of targeted interventions addressing the specific needs of that EU country and deliver tangible results in relation to EU-level objectives, while contributing to the ambitions of the European Green Deal.EU countries were required to produce a thorough assessment of what must be done, based on a strengths, weaknesses, opportunities and threats (SWOT) analysis of their territory and agri-food sector. They were given until 31 December 2021 to submit their CAP Strategic Plans. Following this, the Commission had six months to approve the Plans ahead of their implementation in January 2023. The approval process was based on the criteria laid down in Regulation (EU) 2021/2115 establishing rules on support for strategic plans to be drawn up by EU countries under the common agricultural policy (CAP Strategic Plans). The Commission assessed whether the EU countries’ CAP Strategic Plans contribute to, and are consistent with, EU legislation and commitments in relation to climate and the environment, including those laid out in the Farm to Fork and Biodiversity strategies. The Commission supported EU countries throughout the whole process of preparation of their CAP Strategic Plan so that:• EU countries take full advantage of the CAP 2023-27 and its instruments to support their farmers in the transition towards increased sustainability in our food systems. • Each CAP Strategic Plan includes an intervention strategy explaining how each EU country will use CAP instruments to achieve the CAP objectives, in keeping with the Green Deal ambitions. agriculture.ec.europa.eu/cap-my-country/cap-strategic-plans_enI don't think anyone is claiming EU is perfect, no system of Governance is, but you need to compare if you change what is the alternative you end up with, hence "be careful what you wish for" The reason people generally, apart from lobbying, leave things to MPs is that is the system of Governance we have chosen I.e Parliamentary Democracy where the chosen MPs is entrusted to vote on behalf of all Constituents You do realise that UK has left EU but UK has not left ECJ ? as a consequence of signing a Trade and Cooperation Agreement TCA and UK appoints 3 Judges to that Court The European Court of Human Rights ECHR has nothing to do with EU it is part of Council of Europe which Churchill was one of its prime movers in establishing. All European Countries except Russia and Belarus are members and it does what it says on the tin, make rulings on adherence to Human Rights. I've done more debating than most on here ( from about 2015-8)...don't be surprised. We have left. How was Mandelson, the great Labour man democratically appointed. www.politico.eu/article/controversial-commissioner/corporateeurope.org/en/blog/mandelsons-links-oligarch-raise-concerns-over-commissioners-conflicts-interests
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jul 6, 2023 11:44:23 GMT
Not true But I'm not even saying that. I'm talking about the knowledge and debate of CAP by ordinary people....but if you want to link our MPs ( or even MEP s in other countries) to CAP it is a very confluted and in fact disillusionary to say they have influence. But as I said to Oggy I'll try to keep off this tgread/ rerunning the 2016 election. It SEEMS that a good number of people think the EU is perfect....because it isn't us/ the UK, because we don't really know how it works and and because it is remote from us....one issue of the country is that we tend to leave things to MPs ...the EU takes that a whole lot further....and we certsinly don't need 2 parliaments, Remote Courts of Justice , Commissions ( a concept alien to the uk) etc..the democratic process needs to be kept as simple as possible. You said Not true .... Of course it's true, I'm not surprised you are unwilling to debate when you are unable to accept Basic matter of Fact EU countries implement the CAP 2023-27 with a CAP Strategic Plan at national level Each Plan combines a wide range of targeted interventions addressing the specific needs of that EU country and deliver tangible results in relation to EU-level objectives, while contributing to the ambitions of the European Green Deal.EU countries were required to produce a thorough assessment of what must be done, based on a strengths, weaknesses, opportunities and threats (SWOT) analysis of their territory and agri-food sector. They were given until 31 December 2021 to submit their CAP Strategic Plans. Following this, the Commission had six months to approve the Plans ahead of their implementation in January 2023. The approval process was based on the criteria laid down in Regulation (EU) 2021/2115 establishing rules on support for strategic plans to be drawn up by EU countries under the common agricultural policy (CAP Strategic Plans). The Commission assessed whether the EU countries’ CAP Strategic Plans contribute to, and are consistent with, EU legislation and commitments in relation to climate and the environment, including those laid out in the Farm to Fork and Biodiversity strategies. The Commission supported EU countries throughout the whole process of preparation of their CAP Strategic Plan so that:• EU countries take full advantage of the CAP 2023-27 and its instruments to support their farmers in the transition towards increased sustainability in our food systems. • Each CAP Strategic Plan includes an intervention strategy explaining how each EU country will use CAP instruments to achieve the CAP objectives, in keeping with the Green Deal ambitions. agriculture.ec.europa.eu/cap-my-country/cap-strategic-plans_enI don't think anyone is claiming EU is perfect, no system of Governance is, but you need to compare if you change what is the alternative you end up with, hence "be careful what you wish for" The reason people generally, apart from lobbying, leave things to MPs is that is the system of Governance we have chosen I.e Parliamentary Democracy where the chosen MPs is entrusted to vote on behalf of all Constituents You do realise that UK has left EU but UK has not left ECJ ? as a consequence of signing a Trade and Cooperation Agreement TCA and UK appoints 3 Judges to that Court The European Court of Human Rights ECHR has nothing to do with EU it is part of Council of Europe which Churchill was one of its prime movers in establishing. All European Countries except Russia and Belarus are members and it does what it says on the tin, make rulings on adherence to Human Rights. I am well aware of the EU institutions, thank you. Particularly how remote and anti democratic they are. How many predidents are thete now, I can't recall if it is one, five or seven?I have visited with them several times and engaged with many ( overwhelmingly pro) EU personalities. A basic error on your lesson...I said European Court of Justice , not the ECHR....you fo realise there is a fifference. european-union.europa.eu/institutions-law-budget/institutions-and-bodies/types-institutions-and-bodies_en#:~:text=The%20European%20Union's%20institutional%20set,the%20EU%20and%20European%20people. www.eurodiaconia.org/resources/social-policy-toolkit/chapter-i-back-to-the-basics/the-institutions-and-their-roles/.
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Post by foster on Jul 6, 2023 11:47:49 GMT
That's your opinion, but things are not quite like that. A bit of a ridiculous statement really, not even relevant to the EU....but I don't think most of my generation are dossers etc who had it easy, a slight exagerration I think . ....you soubd a bit like a victim....Important to me, My dad was a miner for 47 years in council housing in Fegg Hayes, most of our neighbours were similar He had to do his best to earn a living for his family....most working class people have to do the same pre and post Brexit. Now you have edited it , you seem to want to attack the boomers.....actually I agree with some of that the immediate past generations have not done this generation any favours in many many ways...but that is a much much wider issue than Brexit. I don't see the point of getting too personal about me, 7 years after the referendum, I think a few people voted leave for different reasons, it isn't very healthy to carry alot of hstred imo there's no point presenting different views on this thread it always degenerates into personal insults and abuse . The main thing i've noticed is despite the thread being 1100 pages long its the same dozen or so posters who are pedalling their views throughout so it doesn't look as if thay have persuaded any body to their cause. i,ve come to the conclusion that its best to avoid voicing an opinion and let the regulars on this thread wallow in their mutually shared misery. sorry should be the government shambles thread but same argumment applies.
We need some outbursts to liven these threads up a bit. It's always just rinse and repeat otherwise.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jul 6, 2023 11:57:59 GMT
there's no point presenting different views on this thread it always degenerates into personal insults and abuse . The main thing i've noticed is despite the thread being 1100 pages long its the same dozen or so posters who are pedalling their views throughout so it doesn't look as if thay have persuaded any body to their cause. i,ve come to the conclusion that its best to avoid voicing an opinion and let the regulars on this thread wallow in their mutually shared misery. sorry should be the government shambles thread but same argumment applies.
We need some outbursts to liven these threads up a bit. It's always just rinse and repeat otherwise. Fos, yes Rinse and repeat from the beginning of the Brexit referendum campaign.....and will go on to the next election....nine years.
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Post by oggyoggy on Jul 6, 2023 11:59:41 GMT
And what we have now is remote, we weren’t able to influence and is significantly worse with around half the funding, as farmers have said. So we are all much worse off for it. All i am hearing from you is that because CAP involves foreigners, it is bad. Because our replacement doesn’t involve foreigners it is good. You don’t care that the thing replacing CAP is much worse. I haven't said CAP is bad, I' ve said that it has been highly criticised ( even by "foreigners") the ordinary UK people didn't relate to it, and don't know about it...the accusation you keep making about " Brexiteers not knowing what they voted for".neaithet do Eurofanatics, but the ststus quo is always easier...I don't know why you are bringing " foreigners" into it....but I do think your bitterness at losing the vote is causing you to be overly critical/ nasty against people who happen not to agree with you....you know " Brexiteers are thick , racists" As I say( again) I'm not reliving the 2016 Referendum....Surely , we will be back in following 2014 election. You are talking nonsense. Those who know about the EU knew what voting for the status quo meant. Leave was a blind vote. You defend brexit to the death, but cannot name a benefit we have seen since brexit, and cannot even name a potential benefit if your ideal leader was in charge of it! It makes no sense to me.
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Post by wannabee on Jul 6, 2023 12:01:13 GMT
You said Not true .... Of course it's true, I'm not surprised you are unwilling to debate when you are unable to accept Basic matter of Fact EU countries implement the CAP 2023-27 with a CAP Strategic Plan at national level Each Plan combines a wide range of targeted interventions addressing the specific needs of that EU country and deliver tangible results in relation to EU-level objectives, while contributing to the ambitions of the European Green Deal.EU countries were required to produce a thorough assessment of what must be done, based on a strengths, weaknesses, opportunities and threats (SWOT) analysis of their territory and agri-food sector. They were given until 31 December 2021 to submit their CAP Strategic Plans. Following this, the Commission had six months to approve the Plans ahead of their implementation in January 2023. The approval process was based on the criteria laid down in Regulation (EU) 2021/2115 establishing rules on support for strategic plans to be drawn up by EU countries under the common agricultural policy (CAP Strategic Plans). The Commission assessed whether the EU countries’ CAP Strategic Plans contribute to, and are consistent with, EU legislation and commitments in relation to climate and the environment, including those laid out in the Farm to Fork and Biodiversity strategies. The Commission supported EU countries throughout the whole process of preparation of their CAP Strategic Plan so that:• EU countries take full advantage of the CAP 2023-27 and its instruments to support their farmers in the transition towards increased sustainability in our food systems. • Each CAP Strategic Plan includes an intervention strategy explaining how each EU country will use CAP instruments to achieve the CAP objectives, in keeping with the Green Deal ambitions. agriculture.ec.europa.eu/cap-my-country/cap-strategic-plans_enI don't think anyone is claiming EU is perfect, no system of Governance is, but you need to compare if you change what is the alternative you end up with, hence "be careful what you wish for" The reason people generally, apart from lobbying, leave things to MPs is that is the system of Governance we have chosen I.e Parliamentary Democracy where the chosen MPs is entrusted to vote on behalf of all Constituents You do realise that UK has left EU but UK has not left ECJ ? as a consequence of signing a Trade and Cooperation Agreement TCA and UK appoints 3 Judges to that Court The European Court of Human Rights ECHR has nothing to do with EU it is part of Council of Europe which Churchill was one of its prime movers in establishing. All European Countries except Russia and Belarus are members and it does what it says on the tin, make rulings on adherence to Human Rights. I've done more debating than most on here ( from about 2015-8)...don't be surprised. We have left. How was Mandelson, the great Labour man democratically appointed. www.politico.eu/article/controversial-commissioner/corporateeurope.org/en/blog/mandelsons-links-oligarch-raise-concerns-over-commissioners-conflicts-interestsHow fid I'm sure you have BigJohn I wasn't a member of this MB at the time You decided not to reply to my post but rather introduce some new subject, OK I'll bite. There are 27 Commissioners appointed to the Commission one for each Country. You seem upset that Mandelson was appointed by UK Government, fair enough Given your linked reason as an objection to Mandelsons appointment you must have been distraught when Boris appointed Evgeny Lebedev the son of an Oligarch and High Ranking KGB Officer as one of the 777 unelected Members of the House of Lords?
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Post by oggyoggy on Jul 6, 2023 12:04:22 GMT
That's your opinion, but things are not quite like that. A bit of a ridiculous statement really, not even relevant to the EU....but I don't think most of my generation are dossers etc who had it easy, a slight exagerration I think . ....you soubd a bit like a victim....Important to me, My dad was a miner for 47 years in council housing in Fegg Hayes, most of our neighbours were similar He had to do his best to earn a living for his family....most working class people have to do the same pre and post Brexit. Now you have edited it , you seem to want to attack the boomers.....actually I agree with some of that the immediate past generations have not done this generation any favours in many many ways...but that is a much much wider issue than Brexit. I don't see the point of getting too personal about me, 7 years after the referendum, I think a few people voted leave for different reasons, it isn't very healthy to carry alot of hstred imo there's no point presenting different views on this thread it always degenerates into personal insults and abuse . The main thing i've noticed is despite the thread being 1100 pages long its the same dozen or so posters who are pedalling their views throughout so it doesn't look as if thay have persuaded any body to their cause. i,ve come to the conclusion that its best to avoid voicing an opinion and let the regulars on this thread wallow in their mutually shared misery. sorry should be the government shambles thread but same argumment applies.
It is only a few on here resorting to insults, mostly those in support of Farage and brexit. Felonious particularly. Bigjohnritchie keeps calling leave voters racist, think and gullible. I think he is trying to use it to support his argument though. I am just asking people for a brexit benefit and nobody can name one. I am seeking opinions and all I get is being told I am boring or some other insult for asking a perfectly valid question and seeking opinions on an internet forum meant for discussion.
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Post by oggyoggy on Jul 6, 2023 12:05:41 GMT
I'm sure you have BigJohn I wasn't a member of this MB at the time You decided not to reply to my post but rather introduce some new subject, OK I'll bite. There are 27 Commissioners appointed to the Commission one for each Country. You seem upset that Mandelson was appointed by UK Government, fair enough Given your linked reason as an objection to Mandelsons appointment you must have been distraught when Boris appointed Evgeny Lebedev the son of an Oligarch and High Ranking KGB Officer as one of the 777 unelected Members of the House of Lords? I have debated the issue forever with him. He never accepts that we have a far, far, far higher percentage of unelected law makers than the EU.
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Post by str8outtahampton on Jul 6, 2023 12:11:15 GMT
You said Not true .... Of course it's true, I'm not surprised you are unwilling to debate when you are unable to accept Basic matter of Fact EU countries implement the CAP 2023-27 with a CAP Strategic Plan at national level Each Plan combines a wide range of targeted interventions addressing the specific needs of that EU country and deliver tangible results in relation to EU-level objectives, while contributing to the ambitions of the European Green Deal.EU countries were required to produce a thorough assessment of what must be done, based on a strengths, weaknesses, opportunities and threats (SWOT) analysis of their territory and agri-food sector. They were given until 31 December 2021 to submit their CAP Strategic Plans. Following this, the Commission had six months to approve the Plans ahead of their implementation in January 2023. The approval process was based on the criteria laid down in Regulation (EU) 2021/2115 establishing rules on support for strategic plans to be drawn up by EU countries under the common agricultural policy (CAP Strategic Plans). The Commission assessed whether the EU countries’ CAP Strategic Plans contribute to, and are consistent with, EU legislation and commitments in relation to climate and the environment, including those laid out in the Farm to Fork and Biodiversity strategies. The Commission supported EU countries throughout the whole process of preparation of their CAP Strategic Plan so that:• EU countries take full advantage of the CAP 2023-27 and its instruments to support their farmers in the transition towards increased sustainability in our food systems. • Each CAP Strategic Plan includes an intervention strategy explaining how each EU country will use CAP instruments to achieve the CAP objectives, in keeping with the Green Deal ambitions. agriculture.ec.europa.eu/cap-my-country/cap-strategic-plans_enI don't think anyone is claiming EU is perfect, no system of Governance is, but you need to compare if you change what is the alternative you end up with, hence "be careful what you wish for" The reason people generally, apart from lobbying, leave things to MPs is that is the system of Governance we have chosen I.e Parliamentary Democracy where the chosen MPs is entrusted to vote on behalf of all Constituents You do realise that UK has left EU but UK has not left ECJ ? as a consequence of signing a Trade and Cooperation Agreement TCA and UK appoints 3 Judges to that Court The European Court of Human Rights ECHR has nothing to do with EU it is part of Council of Europe which Churchill was one of its prime movers in establishing. All European Countries except Russia and Belarus are members and it does what it says on the tin, make rulings on adherence to Human Rights. I've done more debating than most on here ( from about 2015-8)...don't be surprised. We have left. How was Mandelson, the great Labour man democratically appointed. www.politico.eu/article/controversial-commissioner/corporateeurope.org/en/blog/mandelsons-links-oligarch-raise-concerns-over-commissioners-conflicts-interestsI imagine Mandelson was appointed, like all Commissioners (by Qualified Majority Vote) by the European Council, ie the elected Governments of the member states. I thought a Commissioner was broadly the EU equivalent of a civil service Permanent Secretary. However, you seem to know more about this than me, and are pretty clear that it (the Commission) is not the equivalent of the Civil Service. Quite possible I have been wrong all these years - often the case. But perhaps you could let us know what the role of the Commission is?
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jul 6, 2023 12:12:45 GMT
I'm sure you have BigJohn I wasn't a member of this MB at the time You decided not to reply to my post but rather introduce some new subject, OK I'll bite. There are 27 Commissioners appointed to the Commission one for each Country. You seem upset that Mandelson was appointed by UK Government, fair enough Given your linked reason as an objection to Mandelsons appointment you must have been distraught when Boris appointed Evgeny Lebedev the son of an Oligarch and High Ranking KGB Officer as one of the 777 unelected Members of the House of Lords? I'm afraid it will take a bit more than a messageboard to upset me. As you say Mandelson was appointed not elected, a very influential man....even those who think they are the true Left have problems with the Prince of Darkness. Have you sorted out your confusion between the European Court of Justice and the European Court of Humam Rights? Pretty Basic Appointed
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jul 6, 2023 12:13:16 GMT
I'm sure you have BigJohn I wasn't a member of this MB at the time You decided not to reply to my post but rather introduce some new subject, OK I'll bite. There are 27 Commissioners appointed to the Commission one for each Country. You seem upset that Mandelson was appointed by UK Government, fair enough Given your linked reason as an objection to Mandelsons appointment you must have been distraught when Boris appointed Evgeny Lebedev the son of an Oligarch and High Ranking KGB Officer as one of the 777 unelected Members of the House of Lords? I have debated the issue forever with him. He never accepts that we have a far, far, far higher percentage of unelected law makers than the EU. We don't want both then.
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Post by oggyoggy on Jul 6, 2023 12:16:10 GMT
I have debated the issue forever with him. He never accepts that we have a far, far, far higher percentage of unelected law makers than the EU. We don't want both then. We know all about what you don’t want. Care to share what you do want that we couldn’t previously do until leaving the EU?
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