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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2019 9:24:33 GMT
Please take some time to read this and watch the video in the link. It's a super read and so much of it fits into what we're going through right now.
One clip from the article that is so, so true:
"I feel sorry for our managers. We’re so uneducated still in our country that we have a manager and the board puts the weight of the world on his shoulders, making him feel he has to win, win, win, and then criticises him for not playing young players or a certain style."
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Post by Olgrligm on Apr 28, 2019 9:31:12 GMT
Yet people on here want the current bloke sacked after four months with a team that is completely unfit for purpose due to previous managers.
If you want Steve Bruce or Harry Redknapp to come in and spend loads of money getting us into the playoffs and relegating us then that's great, but please recognise that this is not supposed to be a quick fix and get behind the long term project.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2019 9:37:03 GMT
Please take some time to read this and watch the video in the link. It's a super read and so much of it fits into what we're going through right now.
One clip from the article that is so, so true:
"I feel sorry for our managers. We’re so uneducated still in our country that we have a manager and the board puts the weight of the world on his shoulders, making him feel he has to win, win, win, and then criticises him for not playing young players or a certain style."
One difference is that Norwich don't have money to burn, so they don't. We have, so everybody expects Jones to go out and buy his own players and everything will be fine, as if that method hasn't failed us before. The other difference is that Farke gives young players an opportunity and then he trusts them, according to Webber. Jones gives some young players an opportunity but then he does not trust them, as Collins and Verlinden have both found when they were dropped after splendid performances. The nail in Jones' coffin was displayed, by Delap's remarks pre match, when he dropped Verlinden in favour of Ince, because he thought that Ince is a better player. He probably is, but he hasn't shown that very often, whereas Verlinden hasn't let anyone down yet. |
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Post by chuckrocky on Apr 28, 2019 9:37:15 GMT
Have a read of that then have a read of the Gary vs Nathan thread.
He ain’t wrong.
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Post by fca47 on Apr 28, 2019 9:56:53 GMT
See they have an interview with Neil Adams, who is their loans manager. That is one of their innovations that other clubs are copying. Perhaps we could get Neil back, our loan system seems to be a shambles, with lots of unhappy players in the U21s etc.
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Post by kelw on Apr 28, 2019 10:01:17 GMT
See they have an interview with Neil Adams, who is their loans manager. That is one of their innovations that other clubs are copying. Perhaps we could get Neil back, our loan system seems to be a shambles, with lots of unhappy players in the U21s etc. Norwich is really his club. More association with them than us so no reason he would come to a club he played for 30 odd years ago for a short while, local or not. Norwich came 14th last year. Shows what can be done. They had a poor start to the season, similar to us the year we went up. Is a long season and Farke got it right as it went on. |
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Post by fca47 on Apr 28, 2019 10:07:07 GMT
Watching that video with Webber does really bring it home, everything he said about their situation, rings true at Stoke. Tried to buy their way out of the division without any clear idea where they were going, haphazard recruitment and people not suited to the situation. Stoke need to take stock and support Jones. But also shake up other parts of the club, complacency rules at Stoke.
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Post by devondumpling on Apr 28, 2019 10:23:22 GMT
Be useful if we had a sporting Director in the first place?
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Post by cooper67 on Apr 28, 2019 11:15:05 GMT
He's not the greatest of speakers but you can't complain of the turnaround he has made at the club.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2019 12:19:35 GMT
See they have an interview with Neil Adams, who is their loans manager. That is one of their innovations that other clubs are copying. Perhaps we could get Neil back, our loan system seems to be a shambles, with lots of unhappy players in the U21s etc. Norwich is really his club. More association with them than us so no reason he would come to a club he played for 30 odd years ago for a short while, local or not. Norwich came 14th last year. Shows what can be done. They had a poor start to the season, similar to us the year we went up. Is a long season and Farke got it right as it went on. There's just too many differences between their situation and ours. Their solution was to stay clear of expensive buys and promote from within and trust them even if they make mistakes. Our solution remains "to buy in the summer" to the detriment of our academy players, whom the manager, same procedure as all his predecessors, does not really trust. |
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Apr 28, 2019 12:23:25 GMT
Norwich is really his club. More association with them than us so no reason he would come to a club he played for 30 odd years ago for a short while, local or not. Norwich came 14th last year. Shows what can be done. They had a poor start to the season, similar to us the year we went up. Is a long season and Farke got it right as it went on. There's just too many differences between their situation and ours. Their solution was to stay clear of expensive buys and promote from within and trust them even if they make mistakes. Our solution remains "to buy in the summer" to the detriment of our academy players, whom the manager, same procedure as all his predecessors, does not really trust. They’ve signed plenty of players as well as promoting from within, they’ve just been much, much smarter about it. The big difference is they have a blueprint in which everyone pulls in the same direction and knows what the objectives are. We, much like Man Utd, seem to have had owners, CEO, scouts and manager singing from different hymnsheets. The NJ appointment is the first step towards rectifying that. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2019 12:43:58 GMT
There's just too many differences between their situation and ours. Their solution was to stay clear of expensive buys and promote from within and trust them even if they make mistakes. Our solution remains "to buy in the summer" to the detriment of our academy players, whom the manager, same procedure as all his predecessors, does not really trust. They’ve signed plenty of players as well as promoting from within, they’ve just been much, much smarter about it. The big difference is they have a blueprint in which everyone pulls in the same direction and knows what the objectives are. We, much like Man Utd, seem to have had owners, CEO, scouts and manager singing from different hymnsheets. The NJ appointment is the first step towards rectifying that. Until proven otherwise I'll accept that. |
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Post by cousindupree on Apr 28, 2019 12:53:37 GMT
There isn't a lot of similarities between what Norwich have done and what we are trying to achieve. Norwich had the vision and contacts to find a manager schooled in the art of management at Borussia Dortmund and Norwich have a significant number of european imports in their starting xi. Some incredibly savvy buys presumably initiated by a decent scouting network and the contacts the manager has in Europe.
Contrast that with our approach... a manager schooled in management at Luton Town and trying to reproduce what he did there in Div 2 at SCFC in the championship. Added to that his recruitment will be enthusiastic but untried at this level recruits from Div 1 and Div 2.
I know many posters are happy with this approach but it's an approach which is likely to keep us in this division for a good many years.
No inexperienced manager from Div 1 has gotten a team promoted since Eddie Howe although Chris Wilder may change all that in 3 years at Sheff U.
If NJ gets us promoted within 3 years it will be some achievement for an inexperienced manager
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Apr 28, 2019 13:05:28 GMT
There isn't a lot of similarities between what Norwich have done and what we are trying to achieve. Norwich had the vision and contacts to find a manager schooled in the art of management at Borussia Dortmund and Norwich have a significant number of european imports in their starting xi. Some incredibly savvy buys presumably initiated by a decent scouting network and the contacts the manager has in Europe. Contrast that with our approach... a manager schooled in management at Luton Town and trying to reproduce what he did there in Div 2 at SCFC in the championship. Added to that his recruitment will be enthusiastic but untried at this level recruits from Div 1 and Div 2. I know many posters are happy with this approach but it's an approach which is likely to keep us in this division for a good many years. No inexperienced manager from Div 1 has gotten a team promoted since Eddie Howe although Chris Wilder may change all that in 3 years at Sheff U. If NJ gets us promoted within 3 years it will be some achievement for an inexperienced manager Again, you’re making assumptions about Jones’ contacts that none of us can possibly know at this stage. Just because he’s only managed in certain divisions doesn’t mean all his targets are going to come from there. Rudge has never managed in Holland, he still found Van Der Laan for Vale and Hoekstra for us. Hughes had never managed in Germany and only played there for five minutes, he still had contacts there. |
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Post by The man from Utch on Apr 29, 2019 2:18:32 GMT
The NJ appointment is the first step towards rectifying that. I for one believe it is. |
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Post by chuckrocky on Apr 29, 2019 7:40:15 GMT
There isn't a lot of similarities between what Norwich have done and what we are trying to achieve. Norwich had the vision and contacts to find a manager schooled in the art of management at Borussia Dortmund and Norwich have a significant number of european imports in their starting xi. Some incredibly savvy buys presumably initiated by a decent scouting network and the contacts the manager has in Europe. Contrast that with our approach... a manager schooled in management at Luton Town and trying to reproduce what he did there in Div 2 at SCFC in the championship. Added to that his recruitment will be enthusiastic but untried at this level recruits from Div 1 and Div 2. I know many posters are happy with this approach but it's an approach which is likely to keep us in this division for a good many years. No inexperienced manager from Div 1 has gotten a team promoted since Eddie Howe although Chris Wilder may change all that in 3 years at Sheff U. If NJ gets us promoted within 3 years it will be some achievement for an inexperienced manager You massively contradict yourself. First you say Farke’s recruitment was savvy, bringing in players from all over Europe. Then you say Jones’ recruitment will be wrong because he won’t bring in proven Championship players. The two promoted clubs have gone up with squads largely unproven in the Championship and managers with very little experience of the league. Also you can potentially add Dean Smith and Frank Lampard on to your list of lower league/inexperienced managers getting promoted to the Premier League. West Brom could also end up getting promoted with Moore and Shan both playing parts. |
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Post by onionman on Apr 29, 2019 9:44:32 GMT
The similarities in where the clubs were going wrong are striking but that interview also hammers home the radical changes from top to bottom that have turned Norwich around.
Yes we’ve appointed a different type of manager who it seems likely will be backed in the summer, but what about the rest of the revolution?
Can anyone imagine a Stoke sporting director in two years time giving such an intelligent interview explaining the secret to the club’s transformation?
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Post by nottsover60 on Apr 29, 2019 10:14:22 GMT
Their solution was to stay clear of expensive buys and promote from within and trust them even if they make mistakes. Our solution remains "to buy in the summer" to the detriment of our academy players, whom the manager, same procedure as all his predecessors, does not really trust. How do you know that is our solution unless the 'our' you refer to is the our fans who already drawing up lists of expensive names they think we should buy? Everything Jones has said about recruitment has contradicted that. He wants to use the academy, he wants to recruit young, hungry, coachable players who want to play for Stoke not come for money. Yes he wants to recruit in the summer but that is because our squad is not fit for his purpose not because he wants to spend money. Give him a chance before condemning him. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2019 11:02:33 GMT
Their solution was to stay clear of expensive buys and promote from within and trust them even if they make mistakes. Our solution remains "to buy in the summer" to the detriment of our academy players, whom the manager, same procedure as all his predecessors, does not really trust. How do you know that is our solution unless the 'our' you refer to is the our fans who already drawing up lists of expensive names they think we should buy? Everything Jones has said about recruitment has contradicted that. He wants to use the academy, he wants to recruit young, hungry, coachable players who want to play for Stoke not come for money. Yes he wants to recruit in the summer but that is because our squad is not fit for his purpose not because he wants to spend money. Give him a chance before condemning him. I've yet to see proof that he "trusts" young players. I've seen damning proof that he trusts a lazy layabout Ince more than he does a young, hungry, classy Verlinden only two days ago. I've seen, ever since he came here, that he has more trust in 1D McClean than in Bojan (whom he falsely claims to have given enough chances), driving the man Jones said was "a big part of what Jones is trying achieve" away from the club. I've seen him trust a goalless selfish Afobe over time instead of recalling young, hungry, goalscoring Campbell, so tell me why I should trust his constantly stereotyped phony messages? He says the same things all the time without actually ever "saying something"... |
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Post by JurgenVandeurzen on Apr 29, 2019 11:15:37 GMT
I've started reading this and straight away within the first sentence is our problem.
We need a Sporting Director, somebody who understands business AND football.
Until we have one of these I genuinely fear for our future. I believe in NJ we have the right manager, now we need to get the right bodies in ABOVE HIM!
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Post by marshy on Apr 29, 2019 11:44:17 GMT
How do you know that is our solution unless the 'our' you refer to is the our fans who already drawing up lists of expensive names they think we should buy? Everything Jones has said about recruitment has contradicted that. He wants to use the academy, he wants to recruit young, hungry, coachable players who want to play for Stoke not come for money. Yes he wants to recruit in the summer but that is because our squad is not fit for his purpose not because he wants to spend money. Give him a chance before condemning him. I've yet to see proof that he "trusts" young players. I've seen damning proof that he trusts a lazy layabout Ince more than he does a young, hungry, classy Verlinden only two days ago. I've seen, ever since he came here, that he has more trust in 1D McClean than in Bojan (whom he falsely claims to have given enough chances), driving the man Jones said was "a big part of what Jones is trying achieve" away from the club. I've seen him trust a goalless selfish Afobe over time instead of recalling young, hungry, goalscoring Campbell, so tell me why I should trust his constantly stereotyped phony messages? He says the same things all the time without actually ever "saying something"... He gave Verlinden his first start, made Edwards a mainstay in the team and sent Martina back, gave Campbell his first start and gave 17 year old Collins his first start. Yes they haven't played every game. Apart from Edwards he is gradually putting them in. Jones can be bashed for a lack of wins but certainly not his inability to play youngsters as, especially in comparison to his predecessors, he is doing so much more than he could do. |
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Post by Roy Cropper on Apr 29, 2019 12:02:13 GMT
Norwich is really his club. More association with them than us so no reason he would come to a club he played for 30 odd years ago for a short while, local or not. Norwich came 14th last year. Shows what can be done. They had a poor start to the season, similar to us the year we went up. Is a long season and Farke got it right as it went on. There's just too many differences between their situation and ours. Their solution was to stay clear of expensive buys and promote from within and trust them even if they make mistakes. Our solution remains "to buy in the summer" to the detriment of our academy players, whom the manager, same procedure as all his predecessors, does not really trust. Honestly what are you smoking? Who was the last manager to start a 17 year old in a league game? Do you think the likes of Rashford, Lingaard, Kane, Winks etc. etc. have started every game since their debut? That's not how youth development works. We've got the most progressive, academy focussed manager we've had in my lifetime and people are actually criticising. We don't deserve nice things, never have. |
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Post by sportsman on Apr 29, 2019 13:55:04 GMT
I think Jones would have played the kids a bit more if there was not the pressure on every game we play to win.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2019 14:13:46 GMT
I've yet to see proof that he "trusts" young players. I've seen damning proof that he trusts a lazy layabout Ince more than he does a young, hungry, classy Verlinden only two days ago. I've seen, ever since he came here, that he has more trust in 1D McClean than in Bojan (whom he falsely claims to have given enough chances), driving the man Jones said was "a big part of what Jones is trying achieve" away from the club. I've seen him trust a goalless selfish Afobe over time instead of recalling young, hungry, goalscoring Campbell, so tell me why I should trust his constantly stereotyped phony messages? He says the same things all the time without actually ever "saying something"... He gave Verlinden his first start, made Edwards a mainstay in the team and sent Martina back, gave Campbell his first start and gave 17 year old Collins his first start. Yes they haven't played every game. Apart from Edwards he is gradually putting them in. Jones can be bashed for a lack of wins but certainly not his inability to play youngsters as, especially in comparison to his predecessors, he is doing so much more than he could do. No. With nothing to play for vs Millwall, he left out all youngsters. That's when he showed his true colours. |
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Post by marshy on Apr 29, 2019 14:20:15 GMT
He gave Verlinden his first start, made Edwards a mainstay in the team and sent Martina back, gave Campbell his first start and gave 17 year old Collins his first start. Yes they haven't played every game. Apart from Edwards he is gradually putting them in. Jones can be bashed for a lack of wins but certainly not his inability to play youngsters as, especially in comparison to his predecessors, he is doing so much more than he could do. No. With nothing to play for vs Millwall, he left out all youngsters. That's when he showed his true colours. So you ignore everything I said and picked out 1 game where he didn't start them? Comical |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2019 19:48:42 GMT
No. With nothing to play for vs Millwall, he left out all youngsters. That's when he showed his true colours. So you ignore everything I said and picked out 1 game where he didn't start them? Comical It's the most recent game and perhaps one of the games we've played under Jones where there was nothing at stake. If he felt that Collins and Verlinden were too tired with "only" four days of rest, he could have introduced Jarvis, Shenton, or Tymon from the bench, for some choice gradual grooming minutes. Only they weren't on the bench either were they (maybe Jarvis was, I can't find the actual matchfacts)...? |
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Post by FrankButcher on Apr 29, 2019 19:51:08 GMT
I've started reading this and straight away within the first sentence is our problem. We need a Sporting Director, somebody who understands business AND football. Until we have one of these I genuinely fear for our future. I believe in NJ we have the right manager, now we need to get the right bodies in ABOVE HIM! Spot on 👍 Cartwright out!! |
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Post by nottsover60 on Apr 29, 2019 19:57:18 GMT
So you ignore everything I said and picked out 1 game where he didn't start them? Comical It's the most recent game and perhaps one of the games we've played under Jones where there was nothing at stake. If he felt that Collins and Verlinden were too tired with "only" four days of rest, he could have introduced Jarvis, Shenton, or Tymon from the bench, for some choice gradual grooming minutes. Only they weren't on the bench either were they (maybe Jarvis was, I can't find the actual matchfacts)...? Unfortunately we were playing a team involved in the relegation places. Would it have been fair to Rotherham for Jones to have put out a young team? |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2019 7:51:27 GMT
It's the most recent game and perhaps one of the games we've played under Jones where there was nothing at stake. If he felt that Collins and Verlinden were too tired with "only" four days of rest, he could have introduced Jarvis, Shenton, or Tymon from the bench, for some choice gradual grooming minutes. Only they weren't on the bench either were they (maybe Jarvis was, I can't find the actual matchfacts)...? Unfortunately we were playing a team involved in the relegation places. Would it have been fair to Rotherham for Jones to have put out a young team? He didn't mind playing a couple of youngsters vs a team involved in the promotion places. Was that fair on Leeds? |
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Post by nottsover60 on Apr 30, 2019 8:21:24 GMT
The circumstances were slightly different in that Ince was returning from injury and BMI was injured. Also the aggressive atmosphere and likely physical approach to the game were different.
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