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Post by heworksardtho on Aug 19, 2018 13:14:52 GMT
Were they singing the Harry Roberts song ?
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Post by A-teen_six_T3 on Aug 19, 2018 13:15:59 GMT
I think you’ll find the guy in the second row isn’t giving the thumbs up he’s got his thumb on the spray. Absolutely not a chance if you being correct there. He clearly gives the thumbs up Can you please show me where the pepper spray is?
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Post by Han Solo on Aug 19, 2018 13:21:41 GMT
Seen this situation 100s of times over the years following football, Unfortunately there is knob heads on both sides so neither side can complain that they hold the moral high ground in this Let's face some reality..... All the wannabes bouncing up and down with out stretched arms, they goad and rile the police whilst looking rather threatening towards the rank and file over the no mans land between the two factions.....just what exactly if they get within striking distance are they prepaired to do under all the glare of cctv and no possible route of escape, nothing, zero, nadder and all for what...they can't have a cigarette and cant wait an hour until they can do so All the police lining up rocking backwards and forwards in their stance, looking threatening over no mans land, weeks of training under their belt yet are still deliver their pava in anger and aching to deploy, they have lots of tactics to defuse the situation yet decide to carpet bomb the enemy, just stupidity on the leadership who were in charge of that situation. Both sides need to take a look at the video and when they do both sides will agree that the best options available were over looked by both sides in the dispute Nothing see here, loutish behaviour and over the top crowd control, 1-1 To both sides What is the best option though? There is no easy answer. I just don’t think talking works when you have 20-30 young lads who aren’t prepared to listen. I think some responsibility needs to be put on the clubs to get the ringleaders banned. I love my football and have never felt the urgency to get pissed up and start playing up.
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Post by Han Solo on Aug 19, 2018 13:23:34 GMT
This just looks like the police took the opportunity of using a tactic, they've trained for, in a 'live' situation. It’s obviously premeditated Edit: If only Stoke could execute set pieces so decisively It has to be though otherwise you’d be having fights breaking all over the place. They have to be a unit not 3 here 4 there.
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Post by bathstoke on Aug 19, 2018 13:27:07 GMT
It’s obviously premeditated Edit: If only Stoke could execute set pieces so decisively It has to be though otherwise you’d be having fights breaking all over the place. They have to be a unit not 3 here 4 there. Truth is they’d never have done it against Cardiff or Millwall, cause they know they’d have a riot on their hands. Fact is our hooligans have gone the same way as our team, soft...
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Post by Han Solo on Aug 19, 2018 13:32:26 GMT
It has to be though otherwise you’d be having fights breaking all over the place. They have to be a unit not 3 here 4 there. Truth is they’d never have done it against Cardiff or Millwall, cause they know they’d have a riot on their hands. Fact is our hooligans have gone the same way as our team, soft... I’d rather we didn’t have a reputation for having lunatic fans we’ve got enough problems as it is
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Post by mozzer on Aug 19, 2018 13:44:45 GMT
Seen this situation 100s of times over the years following football, Unfortunately there is knob heads on both sides so neither side can complain that they hold the moral high ground in this Let's face some reality..... All the wannabes bouncing up and down with out stretched arms, they goad and rile the police whilst looking rather threatening towards the rank and file over the no mans land between the two factions.....just what exactly if they get within striking distance are they prepaired to do under all the glare of cctv and no possible route of escape, nothing, zero, nadder and all for what...they can't have a cigarette and cant wait an hour until they can do so All the police lining up rocking backwards and forwards in their stance, looking threatening over no mans land, weeks of training under their belt yet are still deliver their pava in anger and aching to deploy, they have lots of tactics to defuse the situation yet decide to carpet bomb the enemy, just stupidity on the leadership who were in charge of that situation. Both sides need to take a look at the video and when they do both sides will agree that the best options available were over looked by both sides in the dispute Nothing see here, loutish behaviour and over the top crowd control, 1-1 To both sides What is the best option though? There is no easy answer. I just don’t think talking works when you have 20-30 young lads who aren’t prepared to listen. I think some responsibility needs to be put on the clubs to get the ringleaders banned. I love my football and have never felt the urgency to get pissed up and start playing up. Oh I have many a time when I was younger, thing is I didn't take to the internet to complain about it afterwards when I got a belt up the ear from some over zealous copper, Saying that there was no internet in them days, nor mobile phones but you get the drift
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Post by Han Solo on Aug 19, 2018 13:49:33 GMT
What is the best option though? There is no easy answer. I just don’t think talking works when you have 20-30 young lads who aren’t prepared to listen. I think some responsibility needs to be put on the clubs to get the ringleaders banned. I love my football and have never felt the urgency to get pissed up and start playing up. Oh I have many a time when I was younger, thing is I didn't take to the internet to complain about it afterwards when I got a belt up the ear from some over zealous copper, Saying that there was no internet in them days, nor mobile phones but you get the drift Can’t argue with that. They want it both ways. It’s the old live by the sword die by the sword.
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Post by spirered on Aug 19, 2018 13:52:30 GMT
I cant add photos but if you watch the video On 4 seconds the copper all in black gives instructions to his collegues On 6 seconds there is a thumbs up from another copper in the second row On 7 seconds they spray This isn't a copper using his spray in self defence or a copper using his spray to deter a violent person. Its a co-ordinated attack by the police on a group of fans. I think its clear that some of them didnt want to use the spray, didnt feel the need to use the spray but were given orders by someone. Its a complete over reaction and it wasn't used responsibly. They, or the officer who gave the order and the thumbs up need to be held accountable for his kr her actions. We can go on all day wether Stoke fans were in the wrong or whether they deserved it...its not the point in question. The point is the police used unnecessary 'force' and took unnecessary actions. As many people have said theese are kids who give it the big un' I know that, its obvious they weren't going to charge at them. Redicilous decision to give the orders to spray. I really don't care what the police did, they wouldn't need to do anything of we didn't have this element of low life fookwits following our club. The police should have more powers to incapacitate these pricks. Go on stoke city, if proven on cctv that they were involved in the anti social behaviour..ban them for life.
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Post by djduncanjames on Aug 19, 2018 13:53:40 GMT
www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/45238177?ns_campaign=bbc_match_of_the_day&ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=facebook&ns_linkname=sportAnother point from this article. The police are saying that the trouble started when Stoke fans tried to "forcibly exit the stadium". Why did they have to resort to attempting to "forcibly" exit? Were they being denied their right to leave? Isn't that false imprisonment? You can explain that if they leave for any reason they will not be readmitted but you can't simply barricade the exit and detain them there against their will. Whether that was the police or PNE doing that, I don't know, but if they're claiming that the disorder was due to that then they're essentially admitting that it was their actions that were the root cause of it. I was seriously wondering this myself, are away fans normally locked into the ground for the entire match? I've never been away with Stoke other than Wembley. What if someone needed to leave or get heart medication from their car or whatever
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Post by Han Solo on Aug 19, 2018 13:53:56 GMT
You claim I can't form an opinion based on that clip but that is literally what you are doing but the other way round and using more speculation than fact. From that clip, the facts are: There is a huge gap, as you yourself have pointed out, between the fans and police. Therefore, there is not an immediate threat to police— not a fact. The only fact in that sentence is the size of the gap. However, you do not see or hear what the police do as the camera is pointing towards the police, not the stoke fans. You cannot say there was no immediate threat ——projectiles being thrown etc.—— The Stoke fans are goading the police, but they are making no attempt to get at the Police, they are making no attempt to attack the Police, there is nothing being thrown at police. —— From people that were there they were threatening police, but I suppose that’s ok.—— The first and only violent actions in the video are from the Police themselves, who step forward to get at the fans, and they instigate the fracas by approaching the fans. —— for which you don’t know the reasons. These are facts from the video. Now if you want to speculate about whether Stoke fans were kicking doors etc beforehand, fine, spray them then at that moment, that would be appropriate. However, there is nothing from the evidence available to suggest that this was appropriate, at this moment in time. I'm going to reiterate that my friend and I heard, first hand, two policemen discussing the incident after the fact, and one of them said, clear as day, "I sprayed them for no reason" and seemed nervous about it and seemed to be looking for advice from his mate who indicated he should defend himself by saying the Stoke fans came towards him. I heard this before I saw the video. I can see that policeman in that video. It is clear that the Stoke fans did not "come towards" him. This copper himself knows that he overreacted. That, with what I've seen, and from the quite hostile attitude from the police that I witnessed yesterday are enough to convince me that those coppers are completely in the wrong. First of all you have missed some ‘facts’ off your list. Those being: The police had their baton and spray out in front of them giving a clear warning of what was coming if the behaviour continued. The behaviour continued. Another fact, as mentioned, a quick google will tell you that the spray only works within 13 feet. Therefore you’re only getting affected by the spray if you’re within close quarters and if you ignored the prior warning of seeing the spray out front of the police. Another ‘fact’. Police can use for for other reasons than there being an ‘immediate threat’. Police can use force in the prevention of crime IE to prevent further offences being committed IE public order, I refer you to section 5, 4, 4a and 3 of the public order act. That would seem to be the case in this scenario. You mention about stoke fans kicking doors etc, well my whole point was that things occurred before the 17 second clip and the clip only covers a certain angle. As for your further comment about the BBC reporting that the police wouldn’t let fans leave and your accusation of them of ‘denying them their right to leave’ or even accusing them of ‘false imprisonment’ which in itself is ridiculous and leads me to think you have never actually attended a football match before. It happens all the time. The purpose being that the away fans and home fans aren’t released at the same time in order to prevent a large scale disorder between opposing fans. But now that you’ve brought up the point of people’s ‘human rights’ wouldn’t it be nice if the police had their human rights respected and were able to go to work and do their job without being threatened, spat and abused just for doing their jobs? Excellent post
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Post by wizzardofdribble on Aug 19, 2018 13:59:25 GMT
So anybody in a pub or club whose had a few drinks and is chanting & singing can expect to be pepper sprayed can they?
Football fans are treated like shit.
Perhaps it's because we're white and working class.
Do you think Old Bill would treat any other section of society like that?
Too busy protecting grooming gangs.
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Post by Han Solo on Aug 19, 2018 14:02:28 GMT
So anybody in a pub or club whose had a few drinks and is chanting & singing can expect to be pepper sprayed can they? Football fans are treated like shit. Perhaps it's because we're white and working class. In a pub/club the responsibility is put on the landlord/ licensee to do the policing so it’s very different plus at football the numbers are far bigger and you have 1000s of fans who don’t choose to get aled up and cause problems.
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Post by spirered on Aug 19, 2018 14:04:41 GMT
So anybody in a pub or club whose had a few drinks and is chanting & singing can expect to be pepper sprayed can they? Football fans are treated like shit. Perhaps it's because we're white and working class. Yup, if you can't have a drink and behave yourself then you deserve all you get. The vast majority of people are law abiding citizens that understand that they can't go around making threats and damaging other people's property. Getting tanked up isn't an excuse to allow people to act like pricks Just hope stoke ban the lot of them
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Post by Pretty Little Boother on Aug 19, 2018 14:09:45 GMT
You claim I can't form an opinion based on that clip but that is literally what you are doing but the other way round and using more speculation than fact. From that clip, the facts are: There is a huge gap, as you yourself have pointed out, between the fans and police. Therefore, there is not an immediate threat to police— not a fact. The only fact in that sentence is the size of the gap. However, you do not see or hear what the police do as the camera is pointing towards the police, not the stoke fans. You cannot say there was no immediate threat ——projectiles being thrown etc.—— The Stoke fans are goading the police, but they are making no attempt to get at the Police, they are making no attempt to attack the Police, there is nothing being thrown at police. —— From people that were there they were threatening police, but I suppose that’s ok.—— The first and only violent actions in the video are from the Police themselves, who step forward to get at the fans, and they instigate the fracas by approaching the fans. —— for which you don’t know the reasons. These are facts from the video. Now if you want to speculate about whether Stoke fans were kicking doors etc beforehand, fine, spray them then at that moment, that would be appropriate. However, there is nothing from the evidence available to suggest that this was appropriate, at this moment in time. I'm going to reiterate that my friend and I heard, first hand, two policemen discussing the incident after the fact, and one of them said, clear as day, "I sprayed them for no reason" and seemed nervous about it and seemed to be looking for advice from his mate who indicated he should defend himself by saying the Stoke fans came towards him. I heard this before I saw the video. I can see that policeman in that video. It is clear that the Stoke fans did not "come towards" him. This copper himself knows that he overreacted. That, with what I've seen, and from the quite hostile attitude from the police that I witnessed yesterday are enough to convince me that those coppers are completely in the wrong. First of all you have missed some ‘facts’ off your list. Those being: The police had their baton and spray out in front of them giving a clear warning of what was coming if the behaviour continued. The behaviour continued. Another fact, as mentioned, a quick google will tell you that the spray only works within 13 feet. Therefore you’re only getting affected by the spray if you’re within close quarters and if you ignored the prior warning of seeing the spray out front of the police. Another ‘fact’. Police can use for for other reasons than there being an ‘immediate threat’. Police can use force in the prevention of crime IE to prevent further offences being committed IE public order, I refer you to section 5, 4, 4a and 3 of the public order act. That would seem to be the case in this scenario. You mention about stoke fans kicking doors etc, well my whole point was that things occurred before the 17 second clip and the clip only covers a certain angle. As for your further comment about the BBC reporting that the police wouldn’t let fans leave and your accusation of them of ‘denying them their right to leave’ or even accusing them of ‘false imprisonment’ which in itself is ridiculous and leads me to think you have never actually attended a football match before. It happens all the time. The purpose being that the away fans and home fans aren’t released at the same time in order to prevent a large scale disorder between opposing fans. But now that you’ve brought up the point of people’s ‘human rights’ wouldn’t it be nice if the police had their human rights respected and were able to go to work and do their job without being threatened, spat and abused just for doing their jobs? Utter fucking bullshit about them not letting home and away fans leave at the same time "all the time". I've been going to home games since 95 and away games for about 13 years. I'm aware of maybe twice that a set of fans has been kept in after the game to avoid crowd trouble, certainly never in at least the last 10 years, and I've never experienced it myself. If anything, in the vast majority of cases fans arrive and leave at the same time and share pubs and transport with very little mither and probably in 80+% of grounds there is no problem with them letting fans out for cigarettes at half time. If I had to leave because I was ill or there was some sort of emergency or transport issues or quite frankly because I just wanted to leave, I would expect in 100% of cases to be let out. You are an authoritarian boot licker if you think it is a good thing that someone can deny your right to leave a fucking football ground, or anywhere for that matter, for some totally arbitrary and vague and unfounded fear of a scrap.
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Post by djduncanjames on Aug 19, 2018 14:10:13 GMT
So anybody in a pub or club whose had a few drinks and is chanting & singing can expect to be pepper sprayed can they? Football fans are treated like shit. Perhaps it's because we're white and working class. Do you think Old Bill would treat any other section of society like that? Too busy protecting grooming gangs. why do you think all football fans are white?
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Post by callas12 on Aug 19, 2018 14:11:15 GMT
So anybody in a pub or club whose had a few drinks and is chanting & singing can expect to be pepper sprayed can they? Football fans are treated like shit. Perhaps it's because we're white and working class. Do you think Old Bill would treat any other section of society like that? Too busy protecting grooming gangs. Can safely say I've never been to a pub and had ale thrown on me, or been subjected to smoke bombs going off causing breathing issues, nor customers getting loud and lary coz they weren't allowed out for a cigarette fix & trying to wreck the place as seems to be the case here! There's a saying, if your poke the hornets nest, expect to get stung. Simple as that really..
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Post by Pretty Little Boother on Aug 19, 2018 14:15:41 GMT
www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/45238177?ns_campaign=bbc_match_of_the_day&ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=facebook&ns_linkname=sportAnother point from this article. The police are saying that the trouble started when Stoke fans tried to "forcibly exit the stadium". Why did they have to resort to attempting to "forcibly" exit? Were they being denied their right to leave? Isn't that false imprisonment? You can explain that if they leave for any reason they will not be readmitted but you can't simply barricade the exit and detain them there against their will. Whether that was the police or PNE doing that, I don't know, but if they're claiming that the disorder was due to that then they're essentially admitting that it was their actions that were the root cause of it. I was seriously wondering this myself, are away fans normally locked into the ground for the entire match? I've never been away with Stoke other than Wembley. What if someone needed to leave or get heart medication from their car or whatever There's normally no problem whatsoever in leaving a ground, unlike the lies being peddled by that poster above. That's not to say that they'd necessarily let you back in again, Preston is in the minority of cases for not letting smokers out, but if it was any other ground and they legitimately wanted to leave and it was explained to them that they wouldn't be allowed back in, then they would be allowed.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2018 14:20:53 GMT
You claim I can't form an opinion based on that clip but that is literally what you are doing but the other way round and using more speculation than fact. From that clip, the facts are: There is a huge gap, as you yourself have pointed out, between the fans and police. Therefore, there is not an immediate threat to police— not a fact. The only fact in that sentence is the size of the gap. However, you do not see or hear what the police do as the camera is pointing towards the police, not the stoke fans. You cannot say there was no immediate threat ——projectiles being thrown etc.—— The Stoke fans are goading the police, but they are making no attempt to get at the Police, they are making no attempt to attack the Police, there is nothing being thrown at police. —— From people that were there they were threatening police, but I suppose that’s ok.—— The first and only violent actions in the video are from the Police themselves, who step forward to get at the fans, and they instigate the fracas by approaching the fans. —— for which you don’t know the reasons. These are facts from the video. Now if you want to speculate about whether Stoke fans were kicking doors etc beforehand, fine, spray them then at that moment, that would be appropriate. However, there is nothing from the evidence available to suggest that this was appropriate, at this moment in time. I'm going to reiterate that my friend and I heard, first hand, two policemen discussing the incident after the fact, and one of them said, clear as day, "I sprayed them for no reason" and seemed nervous about it and seemed to be looking for advice from his mate who indicated he should defend himself by saying the Stoke fans came towards him. I heard this before I saw the video. I can see that policeman in that video. It is clear that the Stoke fans did not "come towards" him. This copper himself knows that he overreacted. That, with what I've seen, and from the quite hostile attitude from the police that I witnessed yesterday are enough to convince me that those coppers are completely in the wrong. First of all you have missed some ‘facts’ off your list. Those being: The police had their baton and spray out in front of them giving a clear warning of what was coming if the behaviour continued. The behaviour continued. Another fact, as mentioned, a quick google will tell you that the spray only works within 13 feet. Therefore you’re only getting affected by the spray if you’re within close quarters and if you ignored the prior warning of seeing the spray out front of the police. Another ‘fact’. Police can use for for other reasons than there being an ‘immediate threat’. Police can use force in the prevention of crime IE to prevent further offences being committed IE public order, I refer you to section 5, 4, 4a and 3 of the public order act. That would seem to be the case in this scenario. You mention about stoke fans kicking doors etc, well my whole point was that things occurred before the 17 second clip and the clip only covers a certain angle. As for your further comment about the BBC reporting that the police wouldn’t let fans leave and your accusation of them of ‘denying them their right to leave’ or even accusing them of ‘false imprisonment’ which in itself is ridiculous and leads me to think you have never actually attended a football match before. It happens all the time. The purpose being that the away fans and home fans aren’t released at the same time in order to prevent a large scale disorder between opposing fans. But now that you’ve brought up the point of people’s ‘human rights’ wouldn’t it be nice if the police had their human rights respected and were able to go to work and do their job without being threatened, spat and abused just for doing their jobs? Are you a police officer?
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Post by djduncanjames on Aug 19, 2018 14:23:19 GMT
I was seriously wondering this myself, are away fans normally locked into the ground for the entire match? I've never been away with Stoke other than Wembley. What if someone needed to leave or get heart medication from their car or whatever There's normally no problem whatsoever in leaving a ground, unlike the lies being peddled by that poster above. That's not to say that they'd necessarily let you back in again, Preston is in the minority of cases for not letting smokers out, but if it was any other ground and they legitimately wanted to leave and it was explained to them that they wouldn't be allowed back in, then they would be allowed. Yeah I figured as much, it's the same at concerts and baseball / basketball at the big stadiums here in Toronto. No ins and outs. I guess you could get back in if you had another ticket. Oddly they you go out and smoke at TFC games here and it runs really smoothly, they just scan your tickets on the way in and on the way out and back in again. Loads go out for a spliff or a fag or whatever really. Some people stash cans outside the ground coz its cheaper and you don't have to line up. I like going outside because the concourses get rammed and its nice to have a bit of a stretch and walk around a bit.. Away fans dont travel in thousands in the MLS mind you.
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Post by Han Solo on Aug 19, 2018 14:34:06 GMT
I was seriously wondering this myself, are away fans normally locked into the ground for the entire match? I've never been away with Stoke other than Wembley. What if someone needed to leave or get heart medication from their car or whatever There's normally no problem whatsoever in leaving a ground, unlike the lies being peddled by that poster above. That's not to say that they'd necessarily let you back in again, Preston is in the minority of cases for not letting smokers out, but if it was any other ground and they legitimately wanted to leave and it was explained to them that they wouldn't be allowed back in, then they would be allowed. I’d say a lot of the decisions arent necessarily done in advanced it’s probably a call made at the time and is based around visible behaviour. I guess if there are obvious signs it’s going to kick off they’ll keep them in. Let’s not forget 1 - the police may have received intelligence re problems of serious public order outside. 2 - they may have been keeping them in because known Preston hooligans may have been waiting outside. The issue about medication is a very different one and I’m sure common sense would rule and they’d be assisted.
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Post by numpty40 on Aug 19, 2018 14:39:19 GMT
The away game at Blackburn later in the season will be interesting. I would imagine Lancs police will be treating this game as 'high risk' or whatever term it is they use.
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Post by SamB_SCFC on Aug 19, 2018 14:43:37 GMT
As with everything in life these days there seems to be an extreme reaction on both sides. It's either the police are brutalist scumbags who have indiscriminately sprayed salt of the earth fans with a potentially deadly chemical agent after minimal provocation. They wanted to do this in advance and used the slightest provocation to turn on the fans. Or the fans were absolute scumbags who should all be identified and banned from Stoke matches for life.
The truth as always is somewhere in the middle. The ultimate responsibility for this lies with the fans. If a significant minority hasn't decided to give it the big un to the police and tried to kick the door open despite it being clear that they weren't going to be allowed out. They behaved criminally and therefore should expect a response from law enforcement to keep the peace and apprehend those responsible. It doesn't matter that you want a fag and Stoke have conceded on the stroke of half time. There's no excuse for trying to intimidate the police into letting you out for a fag. You have to expect a response to that kind of behaviour. However, the police have protocols to follow and CS gas is potentially dangerous and shouldn't really be sprayed indiscriminately. Were there other tactics they could have used? Almost certainly.
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Post by stokielancer on Aug 19, 2018 14:46:14 GMT
Conclusion - A percentage of Stoke fans are nobs!
Police didn’t act in a responsible, reasonable or proportionate manner. I would imagine jobs will be lost by those acting aggressively. This is far more serious than a debate on a forum!
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Post by A-teen_six_T3 on Aug 19, 2018 16:10:11 GMT
I cant add photos but if you watch the video On 4 seconds the copper all in black gives instructions to his collegues On 6 seconds there is a thumbs up from another copper in the second row On 7 seconds they spray This isn't a copper using his spray in self defence or a copper using his spray to deter a violent person. Its a co-ordinated attack by the police on a group of fans. I think its clear that some of them didnt want to use the spray, didnt feel the need to use the spray but were given orders by someone. Its a complete over reaction and it wasn't used responsibly. They, or the officer who gave the order and the thumbs up need to be held accountable for his kr her actions. We can go on all day wether Stoke fans were in the wrong or whether they deserved it...its not the point in question. The point is the police used unnecessary 'force' and took unnecessary actions. As many people have said theese are kids who give it the big un' I know that, its obvious they weren't going to charge at them. Redicilous decision to give the orders to spray. I really don't care what the police did, they wouldn't need to do anything of we didn't have this element of low life fookwits following our club. The police should have more powers to incapacitate these pricks. Go on stoke city, if proven on cctv that they were involved in the anti social behaviour..ban them for life. What an absolute redicilous post. Grow up and get your rose tinted specs off. People act up when they've had a beer. It happens it doesn't mean they should be attacked by the police. Calling these lads pricks isn't very clever either. You are portraying yourself to be this all mighty do gooder and then calling some people you dont know or have never met pricks. It makes 0 sense
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Post by Caerwrangonpotter on Aug 19, 2018 16:15:56 GMT
The away game at Blackburn later in the season will be interesting. I would imagine Lancs police will be treating this game as 'high risk' or whatever term it is they use. Considering our last visit to Ewood Park didn't go well with regards Police & fans then it will make it more open to scrutiny than before
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Post by Malcolm Clarke on Aug 19, 2018 16:25:29 GMT
As with everything in life these days there seems to be an extreme reaction on both sides. It's either the police are brutalist scumbags who have indiscriminately sprayed salt of the earth fans with a potentially deadly chemical agent after minimal provocation. They wanted to do this in advance and used the slightest provocation to turn on the fans. Or the fans were absolute scumbags who should all be identified and banned from Stoke matches for life. The truth as always is somewhere in the middle. The ultimate responsibility for this lies with the fans. If a significant minority hasn't decided to give it the big un to the police and tried to kick the door open despite it being clear that they weren't going to be allowed out. They behaved criminally and therefore should expect a response from law enforcement to keep the peace and apprehend those responsible. It doesn't matter that you want a fag and Stoke have conceded on the stroke of half time. There's no excuse for trying to intimidate the police into letting you out for a fag. You have to expect a response to that kind of behaviour. However, the police have protocols to follow and CS gas is potentially dangerous and shouldn't really be sprayed indiscriminately. Were there other tactics they could have used? Almost certainly. It wouldn't surprise me at all if the outcome of the investigation is somewhere not too far from the position you describe. As you say there is a tendency to see everything in black and white, and this thread is a good example of that from both 'sides', whereas the reality is often a shade of grey. But let's wait and see what emerges. The FSF will be represented at the police de-brief, which itself is much to the credit of the Lancashire constabulary and wouldn't have happened a few years ago.
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Post by callas12 on Aug 19, 2018 16:41:34 GMT
As with everything in life these days there seems to be an extreme reaction on both sides. It's either the police are brutalist scumbags who have indiscriminately sprayed salt of the earth fans with a potentially deadly chemical agent after minimal provocation. They wanted to do this in advance and used the slightest provocation to turn on the fans. Or the fans were absolute scumbags who should all be identified and banned from Stoke matches for life. The truth as always is somewhere in the middle. The ultimate responsibility for this lies with the fans. If a significant minority hasn't decided to give it the big un to the police and tried to kick the door open despite it being clear that they weren't going to be allowed out. They behaved criminally and therefore should expect a response from law enforcement to keep the peace and apprehend those responsible. It doesn't matter that you want a fag and Stoke have conceded on the stroke of half time. There's no excuse for trying to intimidate the police into letting you out for a fag. You have to expect a response to that kind of behaviour. However, the police have protocols to follow and CS gas is potentially dangerous and shouldn't really be sprayed indiscriminately. Were there other tactics they could have used? Almost certainly. It wouldn't surprise me at all if the outcome of the investigation is somewhere not too far from the position you describe. As you say there is a tendency to see everything in black and white, and this thread is a good example of that from both 'sides', whereas the reality is often a shade of grey. But let's wait and see what emerges. The FSF will be represented at the police de-brief, which itself is much to the credit of the Lancashire constabulary and wouldn't have happened a few years ago. At least the matters been identified & addressed & sounds like it'll be fully de-briefed with all associated parties represented. Abroad this would never happen, CS would be fired off from a van into a crowd without any response or reproach.
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Post by stokeloyal on Aug 19, 2018 16:48:26 GMT
Conclusion - A percentage of Stoke fans are nobs! Police didn’t act in a responsible, reasonable or proportionate manner. I would imagine jobs will be lost by those acting aggressively. This is far more serious than a debate on a forum! Coppers lose their jobs? Hahaha Good one, you only have to look at the number of deaths following police intervention vs number of police who've faced charges to know theres one rule for them and another for us. They're more likely face a pat on the back...
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Post by boothenboy75 on Aug 19, 2018 16:56:29 GMT
We certainly have a few brain dead fucktards who support us, and if the police want to investigate them and charge them there'd be few who defend them.
What the police don't have the right to do though is use pepper (or whatever it is) spray indiscriminately in a confined area where theres women and kids, and its a sad state of affairs that we have Stoke fans trying to defend their behaviour.
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