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Post by salopstick on Feb 16, 2019 7:43:32 GMT
I was asking for your personal opinion, If you don't have one that's fine. My personal opinion is that I agree with Corbyn and Skinner 100% ion the videos that I've posted. Do you disagree with them Like plaiting fog I’m still waiting for him to tell us how he believes in a EU that reforms when the EU has already dismissed reforms. He’s on a purely anti Brexit anti government agenda and after years of telling us the corbyn is the real deal conveniently ignore his leaders U-Turn. Some remainers I can see their points but don’t necessary agree. But when they come from the left it’s hypocrisy
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Post by oggyoggy on Feb 16, 2019 8:24:33 GMT
I've been doing it for two or three years on here. It's simple really and very repetitive. I can't put it much better than the videos I've just posted as from Corbyn and Skinner. If you don't like their argument , which is exactly the same as mine, there's little point in asking the question. It's not a game. I was asking for your personal opinion, If you don't have one that's fine. He wants more sovereignty. But then fails to answer the point that if we want to continue exporting to our largest trading partner then we will have to abide by their rules without having a say in them. Also, with less influence in the world once we leave, we will have less say over global issues, but we will follow them as we will have to, so less sovereignty again.
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Post by oggyoggy on Feb 16, 2019 8:25:55 GMT
My personal opinion is that I agree with Corbyn and Skinner 100% ion the videos that I've posted. Do you disagree with them Like plaiting fog I’m still waiting for him to tell us how he believes in a EU that reforms when the EU has already dismissed reforms. He’s on a purely anti Brexit anti government agenda and after years of telling us the corbyn is the real deal conveniently ignore his leaders U-Turn. Some remainers I can see their points but don’t necessary agree. But when they come from the left it’s hypocrisy Define reform. Surely every single change/extra law/change in administration is a reform of sorts. So the EU reforms all the time.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Feb 16, 2019 8:35:01 GMT
My personal opinion is that I agree with Corbyn and Skinner 100% ion the videos that I've posted. Do you disagree with them Like plaiting fog I’m still waiting for him to tell us how he believes in a EU that reforms when the EU has already dismissed reforms. He’s on a purely anti Brexit anti government agenda and after years of telling us the corbyn is the real deal conveniently ignore his leaders U-Turn. Some remainers I can see their points but don’t necessary agree. But when they come from the left it’s hypocrisy I know Salop its absolutely ridiculous, clearly Remainers do not want to recognise the entire purpose of the EU and did not know what they were voting for. The organisation itself, consistently has stated that the aim is to move ever closer to a United States of Europe. The way that is envisaged to be set up is a direct threat to democracy.....and democracy is what has been achieved by the working class( but as Benn said... it's an ongoing battle that each generation has got to fight anew).....the real working class instinctively knew that and thus the vote in working class areas. Or to put it another way, not only do we not like other people telling us what to do, it is a very dangerous thing to give away your decision making to a group of untouchables who simply have not got your interest at heart. To try to reform the EU in the ways that would satisfy democracy is a totsl contradiction.....its like becoming an enthusiastic member of Stoke City's board promising bright new changes.... first item on the agenda...." Let's stop being a football club and become a Rugby club ( Wenger would say that we almost achieved that☺️).....you can't reform the fundamental purpose of an organisation......it isn't just a trading block..... which is the falsehood of what the talk about a "deal" tries to sell us. ...,......... The European Union must turn into a major sovereign power on the global stage making the world in its image, Jean-Claude Juncker has said, setting out plans to make Europe militarily and economically independent from its traditional ally the US. www.theguardian.com/world/2018/sep/12/juncker-calls-on-eu-to-seize-chance-to-become-major-sovereign-powerGuy makes clear the immoveable belief in no internal borders and monetary control/ union......the whole purpose of the EU to work towards a United States of Europe, controlled from Brussels, not by democracy but simply through the implementation and administration of the model.
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Post by followyoudown on Feb 16, 2019 8:39:27 GMT
The first question was a joke the person it was aimed at got it so dont worry. I am fully aware what the backstop is I have mentioned it several times, however when the backstop prevents the WA being agreed making no deal more likely and therefore no backstop it is clearly counterproductive. And the hard border is a problem for Leo and the EU, the UK have said they wont put one up and there is no one who can force them too. Ireland has a problem if there is no deal they will have to have a border with the EU either on the island or with Holland or France. It is an entirely confected argument that will come back to bite the irish and the EU. Why do you think the EU should undermine their whole project for us? They would prefer no deal as it is less bad for them. Therefore they won’t agree to there being no backstop, particularly as we already agreed it! There is only a backstop if the withdrawal agreement is approved, an illegal non time limited backstop is preventing the withdrawal agreement being approved so that means no deal and no backstop - please tell me you get this as your claim this is what the EU really wants is laughable as they then have to have a hard border with ireland themselves as they have already said no hard border between the Ireland's.
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Post by harryburrows on Feb 16, 2019 9:21:00 GMT
Why do you think the EU should undermine their whole project for us? They would prefer no deal as it is less bad for them. Therefore they won’t agree to there being no backstop, particularly as we already agreed it! There is only a backstop if the withdrawal agreement is approved, an illegal non time limited backstop is preventing the withdrawal agreement being approved so that means no deal and no backstop - please tell me you get this as your claim this is what the EU really wants is laughable as they then have to have a hard border with ireland themselves as they have already said no hard border between the Ireland's. W No mate what they actually say is the backstop is vital / none negotiable to prevent the apocalypse of a border on the island of Ireland . Unless there is a no deal in which case a border is a legal. Requirement and essential to maintain the integrity of the single market . It would be hilarious if it wasn't for the fact these fuckers have been ruling us for decades
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Post by foghornsgleghorn on Feb 16, 2019 11:22:11 GMT
4000 making engines at Dagenham, 1500 at Bridgend, or don't they count ?
Different thing. I said car production. BTW, Ford finally abandoned all vehicle manufacture in 2013 - ending more than 100 years of vehicle production in the UK - when they moved Transit production to Turkey. Fucking, bastard Brexit again. Respect to Ford for being so prescient in foreseeing Brexit so many years in advance and planning accordingly. After all, Brexit is So the 5,500 UK Ford manufacturing jobs count because they would probably fuck off soon anyway? A defeatist attitude a long way from the idea that Brexit will lead to the renaissance in UK manufacturing held so dear by some Brexiters.
This is why the binary argument about the EU needing us more than we need them because of us being net importers is a red herring. Will Brexiters stop buying Ford /BMW / Mercedes cars etc post-Brexit? Will they stop shopping at Aldi or Lidl ? Will we run our own trains rather than having them run by the Dutch or Germans ?
Jon
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Post by wagsastokie on Feb 16, 2019 12:03:11 GMT
Different thing. I said car production. BTW, Ford finally abandoned all vehicle manufacture in 2013 - ending more than 100 years of vehicle production in the UK - when they moved Transit production to Turkey. Fucking, bastard Brexit again. Respect to Ford for being so prescient in foreseeing Brexit so many years in advance and planning accordingly. After all, Brexit is So the 5,500 UK Ford manufacturing jobs count because they would probably fuck off soon anyway? A defeatist attitude a long way from the idea that Brexit will lead to the renaissance in UK manufacturing held so dear by some Brexiters.
This is why the binary argument about the EU needing us more than we need them because of us being net importers is a red herring. Will Brexiters stop buying Ford /BMW / Mercedes cars etc post-Brexit? Will they stop shopping at Aldi or Lidl ? Will we run our own trains rather than having them run by the Dutch or Germans ?
Jon
Any loss of manufacturing jobs at ford has far more to do with Eu emission directives than brexit The tofu eating save the planet luvies have a lot to answer for when it comes to ordinary working people’s jobs Brexit is just being used as a excuse and there’s nothing so blind as those who don’t want to see
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Post by harryburrows on Feb 16, 2019 13:03:58 GMT
I was asking for your personal opinion, If you don't have one that's fine. He wants more sovereignty. But then fails to answer the point that if we want to continue exporting to our largest trading partner then we will have to abide by their rules without having a say in them. Also, with less influence in the world once we leave, we will have less say over global issues, but we will follow them as we will have to, so less sovereignty again. So what are these global issues the EU has so much influence over ?
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Post by oggyoggy on Feb 16, 2019 14:45:03 GMT
Why do you think the EU should undermine their whole project for us? They would prefer no deal as it is less bad for them. Therefore they won’t agree to there being no backstop, particularly as we already agreed it! There is only a backstop if the withdrawal agreement is approved, an illegal non time limited backstop is preventing the withdrawal agreement being approved so that means no deal and no backstop - please tell me you get this as your claim this is what the EU really wants is laughable as they then have to have a hard border with ireland themselves as they have already said no hard border between the Ireland's. I get what you are saying. But the EU knows we have far more to lose with no deal so why should they budge? They have all the negotiating power as only a completely negligent government will let us leave with no deal. And no deal is preferred by the EU to a deal with no backstop because it can maintain the integrity of their four freedoms that way.
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Post by oggyoggy on Feb 16, 2019 14:49:43 GMT
He wants more sovereignty. But then fails to answer the point that if we want to continue exporting to our largest trading partner then we will have to abide by their rules without having a say in them. Also, with less influence in the world once we leave, we will have less say over global issues, but we will follow them as we will have to, so less sovereignty again. So what are these global issues the EU has so much influence over ? Everything. Every international treaty when it is negotiated for example. The EU is the richest and biggest market on earth. Of course it has as much weight as can be had over global issues. Certainly more so than a small nation by itself.
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Post by harryburrows on Feb 16, 2019 15:14:01 GMT
So what are these global issues the EU has so much influence over ? Everything. Every international treaty when it is negotiated for example. The EU is the richest and biggest market on earth. Of course it has as much weight as can be had over global issues. Certainly more so than a small nation by itself. The EU has no influence over global matters, it's the largest nations , Russian , china , USA, India , all the rest is just hot air and wishful thinking
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Post by oggyoggy on Feb 16, 2019 19:37:11 GMT
Everything. Every international treaty when it is negotiated for example. The EU is the richest and biggest market on earth. Of course it has as much weight as can be had over global issues. Certainly more so than a small nation by itself. The EU has no influence over global matters, it's the largest nations , Russian , china , USA, India , all the rest is just hot air and wishful thinking Rubbish. Absolute rubbish. It’s the biggest economy on earth. So it has power. It Accounts for a disproportionately large percentage of global trade. It’s the world leader on human rights and loads of international areas with the biggest global financial and legal systems. Its the world leader of employment rights. A world leader on science and innovation in loads of areas. It is massively influential as a bloc and certainly more influential than each individual member state when negotiating with the nations you have listed. That’s the key point.
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Post by prettything on Feb 16, 2019 20:00:06 GMT
So the 5,500 UK Ford manufacturing jobs count because they would probably fuck off soon anyway? A defeatist attitude a long way from the idea that Brexit will lead to the renaissance in UK manufacturing held so dear by some Brexiters.
This is why the binary argument about the EU needing us more than we need them because of us being net importers is a red herring. Will Brexiters stop buying Ford /BMW / Mercedes cars etc post-Brexit? Will they stop shopping at Aldi or Lidl ? Will we run our own trains rather than having them run by the Dutch or Germans ?
Jon
Any loss of manufacturing jobs at ford has far more to do with Eu emission directives than brexit The tofu eating save the planet luvies have a lot to answer for when it comes to ordinary working people’s jobs Brexit is just being used as a excuse and there’s nothing so blind as those who don’t want to see “Tofu eating save the planet luvvies have a lot to answer for”. I really do despair. So anyone who wants to reverse global warming for future generations and stop the untold economic and eviromental destruction, are “tofu eating luvvies”? Wow. Just, wow.
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Post by followyoudown on Feb 16, 2019 20:06:33 GMT
There is only a backstop if the withdrawal agreement is approved, an illegal non time limited backstop is preventing the withdrawal agreement being approved so that means no deal and no backstop - please tell me you get this as your claim this is what the EU really wants is laughable as they then have to have a hard border with ireland themselves as they have already said no hard border between the Ireland's. I get what you are saying. But the EU knows we have far more to lose with no deal so why should they budge? They have all the negotiating power as only a completely negligent government will let us leave with no deal. And no deal is preferred by the EU to a deal with no backstop because it can maintain the integrity of their four freedoms that way. Really the EU has nothing to lose have you not seen the rise of anti eu parties in this country ? Lets also see as no deal gets closer how the EU telling german or spanish car workers or french farmers sorry we are going to make you unemployed because the UK refuses to grant lithuanian ballet dancers freedom of movement goes down. Look at reports of pressure now being applied to Leo on the backstop as too what deal the EU prefer.
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Post by numpty40 on Feb 16, 2019 22:05:06 GMT
A second referendum with the only two options: 1. Leave with no deal. 2. Remain.
We all know without doubt what we are voting for. Leave would smash it, that's why that option would never happen.
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Post by yeokel on Feb 16, 2019 22:35:01 GMT
A second referendum with the only two options: 1. Leave with no deal. 2. Remain. We all know without doubt what we are voting for. Leave would smash it, that's why that option would never happen. A second referendum with only two options. 1. Be strong and see it through. There may be some turbulence along the way but we will end up in a better place. 2. Cave in and be under their cosh for ever. Be strong would smash it. And we have already decided that is the way forward, no need for a second referendum.
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Post by harryburrows on Feb 17, 2019 6:31:31 GMT
The EU has no influence over global matters, it's the largest nations , Russian , china , USA, India , all the rest is just hot air and wishful thinking Rubbish. Absolute rubbish. It’s the biggest economy on earth. So it has power. It Accounts for a disproportionately large percentage of global trade. It’s the world leader on human rights and loads of international areas with the biggest global financial and legal systems. Its the world leader of employment rights. A world leader on science and innovation in loads of areas. It is massively influential as a bloc and certainly more influential than each individual member state when negotiating with the nations you have listed. That’s the key point. Most of that is irrelevant codswallop
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Post by wagsastokie on Feb 17, 2019 7:17:00 GMT
Rubbish. Absolute rubbish. It’s the biggest economy on earth. So it has power. It Accounts for a disproportionately large percentage of global trade. It’s the world leader on human rights and loads of international areas with the biggest global financial and legal systems. Its the world leader of employment rights. A world leader on science and innovation in loads of areas. It is massively influential as a bloc and certainly more influential than each individual member state when negotiating with the nations you have listed. That’s the key point. Most of that is irrelevant codswallop Only most
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Post by harryburrows on Feb 17, 2019 7:20:20 GMT
Most of that is irrelevant codswallop Only most Well most of those things are British and technically we are in the EU
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Post by followyoudown on Feb 17, 2019 8:13:00 GMT
Everything. Every international treaty when it is negotiated for example. The EU is the richest and biggest market on earth. Of course it has as much weight as can be had over global issues. Certainly more so than a small nation by itself. The EU has no influence over global matters, it's the largest nations , Russian , china , USA, India , all the rest is just hot air and wishful thinking I missed this yesterday jeez its laughable the EU is a trading block with ideas above its station. It has no power, no seat on the UN, no army yet . After the skipal attack it was EU members who took action not the EU. How did the EU got on in the Ukraine.....
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Post by The Drunken Communist on Feb 17, 2019 8:26:47 GMT
The EU has no influence over global matters, it's the largest nations , Russian , china , USA, India , all the rest is just hot air and wishful thinking Rubbish. Absolute rubbish. It’s the biggest economy on earth. So it has power. It Accounts for a disproportionately large percentage of global trade. It’s the world leader on human rights and loads of international areas with the biggest global financial and legal systems. Its the world leader of employment rights. A world leader on science and innovation in loads of areas. It is massively influential as a bloc and certainly more influential than each individual member state when negotiating with the nations you have listed. That’s the key point. Great Britain, France, Sweden, Denmark etc... were world leaders in human rights, legal systems, science & innovation etc... long before the EU was even thought of. It's baffling how you think that Europe was some backwater shithole lagging behind everywhere else on Earth untill the glorious EU came along.
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Post by felonious on Feb 17, 2019 8:28:30 GMT
Rubbish. Absolute rubbish. It’s the biggest economy on earth. So it has power. It Accounts for a disproportionately large percentage of global trade. It’s the world leader on human rights and loads of international areas with the biggest global financial and legal systems. Its the world leader of employment rights. A world leader on science and innovation in loads of areas. It is massively influential as a bloc and certainly more influential than each individual member state when negotiating with the nations you have listed. That’s the key point. Most of that is irrelevant codswallop The EU is a world leader on propaganda Harry
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Post by felonious on Feb 17, 2019 8:29:56 GMT
The EU has no influence over global matters, it's the largest nations , Russian , china , USA, India , all the rest is just hot air and wishful thinking I missed this yesterday jeez its laughable the EU is a trading block with ideas above its station. It has no power, no seat on the UN, no army yet . After the skipal attack it was EU members who took action not the EU. How did the EU got on in the Ukraine..... The EU caused massive problems for Ukraine.
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Post by harryburrows on Feb 17, 2019 9:11:38 GMT
Rubbish. Absolute rubbish. It’s the biggest economy on earth. So it has power. It Accounts for a disproportionately large percentage of global trade. It’s the world leader on human rights and loads of international areas with the biggest global financial and legal systems. Its the world leader of employment rights. A world leader on science and innovation in loads of areas. It is massively influential as a bloc and certainly more influential than each individual member state when negotiating with the nations you have listed. That’s the key point. Great Britain, France, Sweden, Denmark etc... were world leaders in human rights, legal systems, science & innovation etc... long before the EU was even thought of. It's baffling how you think that Europe was some backwater shithole lagging behind everywhere else on Earth untill the glorious EU came along. Yes mate how about human rights abuses in France , completely ignored by the EU as it's giving popularism a good kicking
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2019 9:22:19 GMT
Great Britain, France, Sweden, Denmark etc... were world leaders in human rights, legal systems, science & innovation etc... long before the EU was even thought of. It's baffling how you think that Europe was some backwater shithole lagging behind everywhere else on Earth untill the glorious EU came along. Yes mate how about human rights abuses in France , completely ignored by the EU as it's giving popularism a good kicking And the Spanish for daring to have a referendum
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Post by xchpotter on Feb 17, 2019 9:43:55 GMT
Oh no, not another EU is the saviour of the world argument. Just remember they have stopped WWIII, elimated poverty, found a cure for cancer....I’m guessing they will also be saving us from Zombie apocalypse and it’s only the EU that makes the sun rise each day. Come on Brexiteers.....you’ve never had it so good.
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Post by The Drunken Communist on Feb 17, 2019 11:21:10 GMT
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Post by trickydicky73 on Feb 17, 2019 11:30:56 GMT
A second referendum with the only two options: 1. Leave with no deal. 2. Remain. We all know without doubt what we are voting for. Leave would smash it, that's why that option would never happen. Maybe that's why talk of a second referendum has died down recently?
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Post by salopstick on Feb 17, 2019 12:11:59 GMT
The EU has no influence over global matters, it's the largest nations , Russian , china , USA, India , all the rest is just hot air and wishful thinking Rubbish. Absolute rubbish. It’s the biggest economy on earth. So it has power. It Accounts for a disproportionately large percentage of global trade. It’s the world leader on human rights and loads of international areas with the biggest global financial and legal systems. Its the world leader of employment rights. A world leader on science and innovation in loads of areas. It is massively influential as a bloc and certainly more influential than each individual member state when negotiating with the nations you have listed. That’s the key point. It’s not influential. With the help of certain countries and people it’s very dictatorial
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