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Post by shangamuzo on Nov 26, 2018 14:00:47 GMT
How many questions would you want on a referendum then ? Stick to the football stuff. On Brexit you are well out of your depth-Chap! I didn't mention the number of questions did I? I simply said that when you've got such an over simplified question on the referendum paper, then the answer was always going to be whatever the voter imagined it could be and thus impossible to deliver and I was agreeing with Gary, that if it did go back to the people, then the remain option would have to be equally fully explained with opt out options, it couldn't simply be an option to blindly remain. That's what you implied isn't it ? |
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Post by shangamuzo on Nov 26, 2018 14:02:18 GMT
(Yawn)
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Post by Paul Spencer on Nov 26, 2018 14:02:32 GMT
I couldn't agree with you more Gary. The reason we're in this mess now is because the questions on the referendum paper were ridiculously over simplified. Either answer could mean whatever the voter personally wanted it to mean, ergo it would always be impossible to deliver what people thought that they had voted for. Dimwitted and slow to respond. Eh?  |
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Post by Paul Spencer on Nov 26, 2018 14:03:53 GMT
I didn't mention the number of questions did I? I simply said that when you've got such an over simplified question on the referendum paper, then the answer was always going to be whatever the voter imagined it could be and thus impossible to deliver and I was agreeing with Gary, that if it did go back to the people, then the remain option would have to be equally fully explained with opt out options, it couldn't simply be an option to blindly remain. That's what you implied isn't it ? Erm ... nope. |
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Post by shangamuzo on Nov 26, 2018 14:05:11 GMT
Dimwitted and slow to respond. Eh? Eh? You'll just have to Remain ignorant- it shouldn't be too difficult LOL. |
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Post by shangamuzo on Nov 26, 2018 14:05:48 GMT
That's what you implied isn't it ? Erm ... nope. Yes it was.. |
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Nov 26, 2018 14:07:35 GMT
If Remain had won the referendum does anyone believe that we'd now be arguing the case for a second referendum where we voted on what type of Remain we wanted? (Of course it would have to be a 'hard' or 'soft' Remain. A 'hard' Remain would give us a fully fledge Remain, the Euro, EU army, the works. A 'soft' Remain would give us so many opt-outs it'd actually be closer to Leave than Remain.) Do you believe if there was a Remain victory anyone on here would be calling for us to drive on the opposite side of the road, sign up for the Euro, and enter Schengen? And if they did, do you think Leave campaigners would take it as the 'will of the people'? |
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Post by Paul Spencer on Nov 26, 2018 14:10:46 GMT
The clue was in the use of the words "either answer" as in one or the other, you appear to have missed that. But now I'm getting in sucked into spamming this thread with you, lord knows why? I think I'll leave it there. |
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Post by The Drunken Communist on Nov 26, 2018 14:16:16 GMT
If Remain had won the referendum does anyone believe that we'd now be arguing the case for a second referendum where we voted on what type of Remain we wanted? (Of course it would have to be a 'hard' or 'soft' Remain. A 'hard' Remain would give us a fully fledge Remain, the Euro, EU army, the works. A 'soft' Remain would give us so many opt-outs it'd actually be closer to Leave than Remain.) Do you believe if there was a Remain victory anyone on here would be calling for us to drive on the opposite side of the road, sign up for the Euro, and enter Schengen? And if they did, do you think Leave campaigners would take it as the 'will of the people'? The Euro & Schengen, sure. Ever closer Union is what it's all about. There wouldn't be anyone trying to argue how we should only Remain a little bit, though, or we should Remain in this bit & that bit, but Leave this other bit & that other bit. It'd be a case of "We voted to Remain so we're Remaining in everything." There'd be none of the bollocks we're hearing now about "Oh we only voted to Leave this bit, not that bit" etc... |
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Post by trickydicky73 on Nov 26, 2018 14:24:55 GMT
If Remain had won the referendum does anyone believe that we'd now be arguing the case for a second referendum where we voted on what type of Remain we wanted? (Of course it would have to be a 'hard' or 'soft' Remain. A 'hard' Remain would give us a fully fledge Remain, the Euro, EU army, the works. A 'soft' Remain would give us so many opt-outs it'd actually be closer to Leave than Remain.) What's your view on Rip's Hard/Soft Brexit referendum, DC? And what about Paul's three wayer? |
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Nov 26, 2018 14:30:09 GMT
Do you believe if there was a Remain victory anyone on here would be calling for us to drive on the opposite side of the road, sign up for the Euro, and enter Schengen? And if they did, do you think Leave campaigners would take it as the 'will of the people'? The Euro & Schengen, sure. Ever closer Union is what it's all about. There wouldn't be anyone trying to argue how we should only Remain a little bit, though, or we should Remain in this bit & that bit, but Leave this other bit & that other bit. It'd be a case of "We voted to Remain so we're Remaining in everything." There'd be none of the bollocks we're hearing now about "Oh we only voted to Leave this bit, not that bit" etc... So you think a vote to Remain was a vote to join the Euro and Schengen? |
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Post by trickydicky73 on Nov 26, 2018 14:38:13 GMT
I guess I'm talking about the imminent future. It will be considered, debated and voted on and it won't get through parliament. If as a result, it goes back to the people, then as a result of having far more information to base a decesion on, then the option not to leave should be there. Personally, I don't think this will happen. I think parliament will reject her deal and depending on how close the vote is, she may go back to them again but she will still fail and ultimately she will have no choice but to resign and we'll be thrust into a general election. What happens to Brexit then is anybody's guess but I assume it will very much depend on how Labour decides they want to play their hand now that they will be forced into finally showing it. I agree that it very likely won't get through Parliament. I personally think that the MP's should vote in accordance with how their constituency voted in the referendum - i.e if the constituency voted Remain, then the MP should vote remain in Parliament, and Leave if the constituency voted leave. They're there to represent the constituency wishes after all. My personal feeling is that Parliament will vote down both May's Deal and No Deal, although the specific real points of the "Deal" are still to be negotiated after March 2019. The fallout from a HOC defeat is anybody's guess right now but a general election does seem more and more likely. Corbyn and Starmer seem certain they can renegotiate a better deal with Brussels but I think this is pie in the sky as Brussels would no doubt want even more concessions if they were prepared to renegotiate at all. It's all just one big mess. Or is it an elaborate charade? |
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Post by The Drunken Communist on Nov 26, 2018 14:56:35 GMT
What's your view on Rip's Hard/Soft Brexit referendum, DC? And what about Paul's three wayer? There is no 'hard' or 'soft' Brexit, there's Brexit or there isn't. No-one was talking about 'hard' or 'soft' Brexits before the referendum, they were terms that were quickily chucked into the mix once 'the Plebs' decided to vote the wrong way. It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if we did have a second vote for a hard or soft Brexit, if hard won that we'd then suddenly start hearing about do we want an 'Ultra Hard Brexit' or do we want a 'Hard Brexit-Lite where we remain in some bits'. They wont let it lie because we've voted the wrong way, so they'll keep trying new ways to make us vote the correct way. It'd be the same with any other type of vote. Leave would be split into multiple options, Hard Brexit, Soft Brexit, Brexit Plus, True Brexit, Three Bags Full Brexit, and then you'd have Remain. That wouldn't get split, there'd be no Remain & join the Euro, Remain & join Schengen, Remain but Leave if we have to join the Euro etc... No, it'd be done to split the Brexit vote but keep the Remain vote as one block, and therefore maximise the chance of us voting the 'correct' way. |
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Post by Clayton Wood on Nov 26, 2018 14:58:55 GMT
The Euro & Schengen, sure. Ever closer Union is what it's all about. There wouldn't be anyone trying to argue how we should only Remain a little bit, though, or we should Remain in this bit & that bit, but Leave this other bit & that other bit. It'd be a case of "We voted to Remain so we're Remaining in everything." There'd be none of the bollocks we're hearing now about "Oh we only voted to Leave this bit, not that bit" etc... So you think a vote to Remain was a vote to join the Euro and Schengen? We don't know do we? The perils of leaving were shoved through everybody's letter box, yet the benefits of remain and on what terms were never mentioned. Which was half the problem with the Remain campaign in my opinion. If the only reason to stay was it is less worse than leave then no wonder it went the way it did, especially with the overplayed project fear campaign. |
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Post by trickydicky73 on Nov 26, 2018 15:09:35 GMT
What's your view on Rip's Hard/Soft Brexit referendum, DC? And what about Paul's three wayer? There is no 'hard' or 'soft' Brexit, there's Brexit or there isn't. No-one was talking about 'hard' or 'soft' Brexits before the referendum, they were terms that were quickily chucked into the mix once 'the Plebs' decided to vote the wrong way. It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if we did have a second vote for a hard or soft Brexit, if hard won that we'd then suddenly start hearing about do we want an 'Ultra Hard Brexit' or do we want a 'Hard Brexit-Lite where we remain in some bits'. They wont let it lie because we've voted the wrong way, so they'll keep trying new ways to make us vote the correct way. It'd be the same with any other type of vote. Leave would be split into multiple options, Hard Brexit, Soft Brexit, Brexit Plus, True Brexit, Three Bags Full Brexit, and then you'd have Remain. That wouldn't get split, there'd be no Remain & join the Euro, Remain & join Schengen, Remain but Leave if we have to join the Euro etc... No, it'd be done to split the Brexit vote but keep the Remain vote as one block, and therefore maximise the chance of us voting the 'correct' way. I agree. It's also scary to think that there is no party that is willing to listen to working class people's concerns. As we agreed before, certain people on here would change their tune if Corbyn grew some bollocks. |
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Nov 26, 2018 15:14:51 GMT
What's your view on Rip's Hard/Soft Brexit referendum, DC? And what about Paul's three wayer? There is no 'hard' or 'soft' Brexit, there's Brexit or there isn't. No-one was talking about 'hard' or 'soft' Brexits before the referendum, they were terms that were quickily chucked into the mix once 'the Plebs' decided to vote the wrong way. It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if we did have a second vote for a hard or soft Brexit, if hard won that we'd then suddenly start hearing about do we want an 'Ultra Hard Brexit' or do we want a 'Hard Brexit-Lite where we remain in some bits'. They wont let it lie because we've voted the wrong way, so they'll keep trying new ways to make us vote the correct way. It'd be the same with any other type of vote. Leave would be split into multiple options, Hard Brexit, Soft Brexit, Brexit Plus, True Brexit, Three Bags Full Brexit, and then you'd have Remain. That wouldn't get split, there'd be no Remain & join the Euro, Remain & join Schengen, Remain but Leave if we have to join the Euro etc... No, it'd be done to split the Brexit vote but keep the Remain vote as one block, and therefore maximise the chance of us voting the 'correct' way. People were talking about Norway-style arrangements before the referendum or if we would be in or out of the custom's unions, which is the same debate (only with different terms). |
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Post by Clayton Wood on Nov 26, 2018 15:16:22 GMT
***Breaking news****
No.10 has just announced that if May's deal fails to pass through Parliament then Santa will not call on British children in future Christmases. Without her agreement on frictionless trade his sleigh will require customs checks at the border.
#PrayforXmas
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Nov 26, 2018 15:16:35 GMT
So you think a vote to Remain was a vote to join the Euro and Schengen? We don't know do we? The perils of leaving were shoved through everybody's letter box, yet the benefits of remain and on what terms were never mentioned. Which was half the problem with the Remain campaign in my opinion. If the only reason to stay was it is less worse than leave then no wonder it went the way it did, especially with the overplayed project fear campaign. Well we don't know because it never happened, that much is true. But do you realistically think we would've been joining the Euro in the foreseeable future (lets call it five years) if we'd voted to Remain? |
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Post by trickydicky73 on Nov 26, 2018 15:19:28 GMT
***Breaking news**** No.10 has just announced that if May's deal fails to pass through Parliament then Santa will not call on British children in future Christmases. Without her agreement on frictionless trade his sleigh will require customs checks at the border. #PrayforXmas Better known as the Santa Clause... |
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Nov 26, 2018 15:21:47 GMT
***Breaking news**** No.10 has just announced that if May's deal fails to pass through Parliament then Santa will not call on British children in future Christmases. Without her agreement on frictionless trade his sleigh will require customs checks at the border. #PrayforXmas Reactions from the Brexit camp: "Santa needs us more than we need Santa," said Nigel Farage. "This'll be the easiest Xmas delivery in history," said Liam Fox. "Until now I wasn't aware how important the sleigh actually was to Santa," said Dominic Raab. |
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Post by Clayton Wood on Nov 26, 2018 15:26:00 GMT
We don't know do we? The perils of leaving were shoved through everybody's letter box, yet the benefits of remain and on what terms were never mentioned. Which was half the problem with the Remain campaign in my opinion. If the only reason to stay was it is less worse than leave then no wonder it went the way it did, especially with the overplayed project fear campaign. Well we don't know because it never happened, that much is true. But do you realistically think we would've been joining the Euro in the foreseeable future (lets call it five years) if we'd voted to Remain? I honestly don't know mate. It would require a speeding up of the closer union policy to be within 5 years I think. If muted it'd be a very foolish government to roll over and accept it outright and we'd be back to in/out referendums again. Pandora's box has been opened now what ever happens. |
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Post by trickydicky73 on Nov 26, 2018 15:28:33 GMT
***Breaking news**** No.10 has just announced that if May's deal fails to pass through Parliament then Santa will not call on British children in future Christmases. Without her agreement on frictionless trade his sleigh will require customs checks at the border. #PrayforXmas Reactions from the Brexit camp: "Santa needs us more than we need Santa," said Nigel Farage. "This'll be the easiest Xmas delivery in history," said Liam Fox. "Until now I wasn't aware how important the sleigh actually was to Santa," said Dominic Raab. Good Riposte! 😁 |
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Nov 26, 2018 15:38:54 GMT
Reactions from the Brexit camp: "Santa needs us more than we need Santa," said Nigel Farage. "This'll be the easiest Xmas delivery in history," said Liam Fox. "Until now I wasn't aware how important the sleigh actually was to Santa," said Dominic Raab. Good Riposte! 😁 Couldn't help meself. All good fun! |
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Post by Clayton Wood on Nov 26, 2018 16:00:22 GMT
Jean-Claude Juncker, President of the European Commission, has today announced the intention of a European Air Force to compliment the proposed EU Army. He said, "Today it has been made clear, that the Federal Sates of Europe must be in a position to defend its own airspace from intruders. This must extend to manned or unmanned aircraft, intercontinental missiles, drones, satellite surveillance and sleighs.
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Post by yeokel on Nov 26, 2018 16:28:24 GMT
***Breaking news**** No.10 has just announced that if May's deal fails to pass through Parliament then Santa will not call on British children in future Christmases. Without her agreement on frictionless trade his sleigh will require customs checks at the border. #PrayforXmas Reactions from the Brexit camp: "Santa needs us more than we need Santa," said Nigel Farage. "This'll be the easiest Xmas delivery in history," said Liam Fox. "Until now I wasn't aware how important the sleigh actually was to Santa," said Dominic Raab. Continuing within the Christmas spirit and a theme of unity, it's been rumoured that Jezza might be able to lend half a dozen unicorns for sleigh pulling duties this year to give Santa's reindeer a well-deserved year off. Jean-Claude Juncker was heard to mumble, “ did I hear someone mention Christmas Spirits?” |
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Post by mrcoke on Nov 26, 2018 17:12:35 GMT
***Breaking news**** No.10 has just announced that if May's deal fails to pass through Parliament then Santa will not call on British children in future Christmases. Without her agreement on frictionless trade his sleigh will require customs checks at the border. #PrayforXmas Reactions from the Brexit camp: "Santa needs us more than we need Santa," said Nigel Farage. HO! "This'll be the easiest Xmas delivery in history," said Liam Fox. HO! "Until now I wasn't aware how important the sleigh actually was to Santa," said Dominic Raab. HO! |
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Post by rogerjonesisgod on Nov 26, 2018 17:27:35 GMT
We still don't know what it means. May's 'deal' isn't actually the deal. You do realise this don't you? We know far more than we did in 2016. That is clearly demonstrated by how many people simply want to now (and that's the important bit) leave without any deal at all, as a result of what May has negotiated. Not about the deal we don't. We want to Leave with No Deal now because of the Withdrawal Agreement. It's suicide. Remain told us that the so called no deal would happen if we voted to Leave. Out of the SM the sky would fall in 800,000 job loses etc etc. We voted to Leave because Brexit isn't about pounds shillings and pence. Project Continuity Remain are STILL telling us we won't be able to drink the tap water or buy a mars bar if we leave the EU. And guess what, we still want to Leave. Leave told us there was a deal to be done. Even Donald fucking Tusk offered Canada+ back in March. Great, so we Leave on No Deal if we can't get a trade deal agreed. Since then May hasn't even tried. The deal is so bad it has to have been designed this way on purpose. She had 9 months before she triggered A50 and two years to secure something anything and she's got nothing. Zero. So yes, with the EU taking the piss and May encouraging them and not a single legal commitment for the future deal I'm very happy to take No Deal. Very happy. |
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Nov 26, 2018 17:37:41 GMT
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Post by xchpotter on Nov 26, 2018 17:49:57 GMT
It really is astonishing when you just look at the comments from the QC. There was always going to be a cost to any Brexit, but it seems that May has managed to get the biggest cost with the smallest, if any benefit. I just don’t get what’s going on here, it just doesn’t make sense and I can only come to the conclusion it has all been carefully crafted to ensure there isn’t a Brexit at all. |
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Post by trickydicky73 on Nov 26, 2018 18:03:37 GMT
It really is astonishing when you just look at the comments from the QC. There was always going to be a cost to any Brexit, but it seems that May has managed to get the biggest cost with the smallest, if any benefit. I just don’t get what’s going on here, it just doesn’t make sense and I can only come to the conclusion it has all been carefully crafted to ensure there isn’t a Brexit at all. Finally! 😁 |
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