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Post by smallthorner on Mar 31, 2023 20:03:54 GMT
Never mind we will have lots of nice honey from Peru. Marmalade surely? Haha. Noooo... you silly fool That's from Seville in the EU 😄😄
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Post by mrcoke on Mar 31, 2023 20:15:01 GMT
An excellent question. The bottom line is I don't know. I'm sure if I was Scottish I would want the maximum amount of devolution of power. Peoples should be control of their own destiny. There is of course the question of whose paying. Scotland enjoy a lot of government expenditure per head. If Scotland were to get independence I hope I'm not expected to pay for it. One of my beefs with EU membership was in terms of wealth per head the UK was a middle ranking country in the EU but our financial contribution was the 5th highest per head of population. In terms of EU benefits the UK was fifth lowest per head of the 28 countries. We also have a massive trade deficit with the EU and spend a lot more on defence than most other EU countries. We are out now and others can pick up the tab. Your last paragraph- that’s because we horde wealth for only the very richest. So we have high gdp. Whereas many of the wealthier EU member states have more equal societies but lower gdp. That’s nothing to do with the EU. That’s to do with the Tory party and our undemocratic electoral system. Defence isn’t an EU issue either. Trade deficit is largely down to our government. It seems you have a problem with our government. Not the EU We agree that May and Johnson made a mess of Brexit. Contributions to the EU should be based on GDP per capita not total GDP: www.statista.com/statistics/316691/eu-budget-contributions-by-country/#:~:text=The%20amount%20which%20EU%20member,and%202.42%20trillion%20euros%20respectively. Distribution of EU funds should be based on need, I.e. GDP per capita with the poorest getting the most. The largest EU budget is the CAP with the lion's share of that going to the richest farmers. The UK was one of the highest payers to the EU and one of those that received the lowest per capita. If trade deficit is down to government, why does the UK have a large trade surplus with the rest of the world and a massively increasing trade deficit with the EU from 2000? www.statista.com/statistics/284750/united-kingdom-uk-total-eu-trade-in-goods-by-trade-value/It started with the Blair years and increase in Eastern States joining the EU, and the Euro which resulted in wealth concentrating with the original members of the EEC, where al the EU institutions are: parliaments, Commission, law courts, banking, etc. As a consequence peripheral economies like UK, Greece, Italy, Spain, etc. suffered. Look at what has happened to Italy's GDP per capita over the last 50 years and the impact of the Euro: tradingeconomics.com/italy/gdp-per-capitaBlair wanted to join the Euro but Brown who had control of the economy under their "deal" would not agree thank God for us. If Blair had got his way the impact on the British economy would have been catastrophic.
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Post by foghornsgleghorn on Mar 31, 2023 21:51:29 GMT
So the thread passes 1,000,000 views -and not one of those views has seen a genuine benefit of Brexit.
Maybe by 2,000,000 then....
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Post by wannabee on Mar 31, 2023 22:38:03 GMT
Your last paragraph- that’s because we horde wealth for only the very richest. So we have high gdp. Whereas many of the wealthier EU member states have more equal societies but lower gdp. That’s nothing to do with the EU. That’s to do with the Tory party and our undemocratic electoral system. Defence isn’t an EU issue either. Trade deficit is largely down to our government. It seems you have a problem with our government. Not the EU We agree that May and Johnson made a mess of Brexit. Contributions to the EU should be based on GDP per capita not total GDP: www.statista.com/statistics/316691/eu-budget-contributions-by-country/#:~:text=The%20amount%20which%20EU%20member,and%202.42%20trillion%20euros%20respectively. Distribution of EU funds should be based on need, I.e. GDP per capita with the poorest getting the most. The largest EU budget is the CAP with the lion's share of that going to the richest farmers. The UK was one of the highest payers to the EU and one of those that received the lowest per capita. If trade deficit is down to government, why does the UK have a large trade surplus with the rest of the world and a massively increasing trade deficit with the EU from 2000? www.statista.com/statistics/284750/united-kingdom-uk-total-eu-trade-in-goods-by-trade-value/It started with the Blair years and increase in Eastern States joining the EU, and the Euro which resulted in wealth concentrating with the original members of the EEC, where al the EU institutions are: parliaments, Commission, law courts, banking, etc. As a consequence peripheral economies like UK, Greece, Italy, Spain, etc. suffered. Look at what has happened to Italy's GDP per capita over the last 50 years and the impact of the Euro: tradingeconomics.com/italy/gdp-per-capitaBlair wanted to join the Euro but Brown who had control of the economy under their "deal" would not agree thank God for us. If Blair had got his way the impact on the British economy would have been catastrophic. The more you have written over the last few pages it seems obvious you have little understanding or pretend not to understand the workings of CPTPP or how the Budget Contributions of EU Countries was calculated Contributions to EU Budget are not based on GDP but can be calculated either on GNI or Per Capita based on each Countries preference In the period 2007 to 2013 7 year Budget Cycle the Percentage Contribution to the TOTAL EU Budget by Country was Germany 19.90% France 17.76% Italy 13.57% UK 10.70% Spain 9.15% Are you seriously suggesting given the relative GDPs of these Countries that’s how the Contributions would have been calculated?
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Apr 1, 2023 7:10:25 GMT
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Apr 1, 2023 8:04:46 GMT
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Post by mrcoke on Apr 1, 2023 8:34:45 GMT
We agree that May and Johnson made a mess of Brexit. Contributions to the EU should be based on GDP per capita not total GDP: www.statista.com/statistics/316691/eu-budget-contributions-by-country/#:~:text=The%20amount%20which%20EU%20member,and%202.42%20trillion%20euros%20respectively. Distribution of EU funds should be based on need, I.e. GDP per capita with the poorest getting the most. The largest EU budget is the CAP with the lion's share of that going to the richest farmers. The UK was one of the highest payers to the EU and one of those that received the lowest per capita. If trade deficit is down to government, why does the UK have a large trade surplus with the rest of the world and a massively increasing trade deficit with the EU from 2000? www.statista.com/statistics/284750/united-kingdom-uk-total-eu-trade-in-goods-by-trade-value/It started with the Blair years and increase in Eastern States joining the EU, and the Euro which resulted in wealth concentrating with the original members of the EEC, where al the EU institutions are: parliaments, Commission, law courts, banking, etc. As a consequence peripheral economies like UK, Greece, Italy, Spain, etc. suffered. Look at what has happened to Italy's GDP per capita over the last 50 years and the impact of the Euro: tradingeconomics.com/italy/gdp-per-capitaBlair wanted to join the Euro but Brown who had control of the economy under their "deal" would not agree thank God for us. If Blair had got his way the impact on the British economy would have been catastrophic. The more you have written over the last few pages it seems obvious you have little understanding or pretend not to understand the workings of CPTPP or how the Budget Contributions of EU Countries was calculated Contributions to EU Budget are not based on GDP but can be calculated either on GNI or Per Capita based on each Countries preference In the period 2007 to 2013 7 year Budget Cycle the Percentage Contribution to the TOTAL EU Budget by Country was Germany 19.90% France 17.76% Italy 13.57% UK 10.70% Spain 9.15% Are you seriously suggesting given the relative GDPs of these Countries that’s how the Contributions would have been calculated? I see you have got your history book out, 2007 to 2013; how far back do you want to go? The point I am trying to make is that the UK's net contribution to the EU was unfair. In 2017 net Euro billions contributions were: Germany 10.7, UK 5.3, France 4.6, Italy 3.6, Sweden 1.4, Netherlands 1.3. What is the benefit of being in the EU apart from them making our laws? As I pointed out above we were paying to be in the EU to "enjoy" a massive trade deficit with the EU. So a large financial contribution to an organisation that we enjoy a massive trade deficit with. It's a good job we have a huge positive trade balance with the rest of the world, where would the EU be without us propping them up? We have a massive trade deficit with Germany, so Germany can have a massive trade deficit with China. The UK is best to seek to achieve more self sufficiency and spread dependency on the rest of the world for trade. I am not saying stop trading with the EU countries, I am saying to reduce our dependence. There is no reason we cannot re-establish reciprocal arrangements on matter such as travel, security, residency, etc. that we enjoyed as members, when those who want to punish the UK for leaving and destroying their dream of a united states of Europe have left the scene. Going back to the CPTPP, obviously when you join a trade organisation you agree to abide by the rules on trade related matters. The EU is a completely different organisation with the objective of creating one state controlled by an elected bureaucracy, i.e. loss of sovereignty where EU law takes precedence over individual nations law. I see little point on carrying on this endless debate. You are clearly in favour of EU membership no matter what it costs the UK in sovereignty terms or financial terms. I used to be in favour of membership of the EEC where we gave up a small amount of sovereignty for the economic benefits of membership in the 70s and 80s. I started to have grave doubts in the 90s when there was a stream of legislations on health, safety, environment, employment, etc. on top of trade laws. At that time it was patently obvious the UK was abiding by those laws but other countries were flouting them. Maastricht was the game changer where EU took supremacy over individual nations, which I don't propose to go into at length. Maastricht gave the EU Commission teeth to make member states tow the line. So we are out of the EU and I doubt we will ever go back. You can carry on posting what is wrong with leaving the EU, I will in future post about UK success outside of the EU.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Apr 1, 2023 9:15:03 GMT
The more you have written over the last few pages it seems obvious you have little understanding or pretend not to understand the workings of CPTPP or how the Budget Contributions of EU Countries was calculated Contributions to EU Budget are not based on GDP but can be calculated either on GNI or Per Capita based on each Countries preference In the period 2007 to 2013 7 year Budget Cycle the Percentage Contribution to the TOTAL EU Budget by Country was Germany 19.90% France   17.76% Italy     13.57% UK      10.70% Spain     9.15% Are you seriously suggesting given the relative GDPs of these Countries that’s how the Contributions would have been calculated? What is the benefit of being in the EU apart from them making our laws? Gosh, where to start? Frictionless trade benefitting all member states Better relations between countries A more cohesive, less divided, less hostile Europe No wars between traditional European enemies for the longest period in European history Helping poorer European countries improve their standards of living through the redistribution of wealth from richer countries to poorer ones, thereby directly contributing to the point above. Just a very few right off the top of my head. All very Christian sounding benefits, really surprised* you can't see that. * I'm not.
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Post by foghornsgleghorn on Apr 1, 2023 9:18:21 GMT
Your last paragraph- that’s because we horde wealth for only the very richest. So we have high gdp. Whereas many of the wealthier EU member states have more equal societies but lower gdp. That’s nothing to do with the EU. That’s to do with the Tory party and our undemocratic electoral system. Defence isn’t an EU issue either. Trade deficit is largely down to our government. It seems you have a problem with our government. Not the EU We agree that May and Johnson made a mess of Brexit. I have to admit double-checking this hadn't been posted this morning , congratulations on finally recognising that Brexit is a mess
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Post by oggyoggy on Apr 1, 2023 9:20:00 GMT
The more you have written over the last few pages it seems obvious you have little understanding or pretend not to understand the workings of CPTPP or how the Budget Contributions of EU Countries was calculated Contributions to EU Budget are not based on GDP but can be calculated either on GNI or Per Capita based on each Countries preference In the period 2007 to 2013 7 year Budget Cycle the Percentage Contribution to the TOTAL EU Budget by Country was Germany 19.90% France   17.76% Italy     13.57% UK      10.70% Spain     9.15% Are you seriously suggesting given the relative GDPs of these Countries that’s how the Contributions would have been calculated? I see you have got your history book out, 2007 to 2013; how far back do you want to go? The point I am trying to make is that the UK's net contribution to the EU was unfair. In 2017 net Euro billions contributions were: Germany 10.7, UK 5.3, France 4.6, Italy 3.6, Sweden 1.4, Netherlands 1.3. What is the benefit of being in the EU apart from them making our laws? As I pointed out above we were paying to be in the EU to "enjoy" a massive trade deficit with the EU. So a large financial contribution to an organisation that we enjoy a massive trade deficit with. It's a good job we have a huge positive trade balance with the rest of the world, where would the EU be without us propping them up? We have a massive trade deficit with Germany, so Germany can have a massive trade deficit with China. The UK is best to seek to achieve more self sufficiency and spread dependency on the rest of the world for trade. I am not saying stop trading with the EU countries, I am saying to reduce our dependence. There is no reason we cannot re-establish reciprocal arrangements on matter such as travel, security, residency, etc. that we enjoyed as members, when those who want to punish the UK for leaving and destroying their dream of a united states of Europe have left the scene. Going back to the CPTPP, obviously when you join a trade organisation you agree to abide by the rules on trade related matters. The EU is a completely different organisation with the objective of creating one state controlled by an elected bureaucracy, i.e. loss of sovereignty where EU law takes precedence over individual nations law. I see little point on carrying on this endless debate. You are clearly in favour of EU membership no matter what it costs the UK in sovereignty terms or financial terms. I used to be in favour of membership of the EEC where we gave up a small amount of sovereignty for the economic benefits of membership in the 70s and 80s. I started to have grave doubts in the 90s when there was a stream of legislations on health, safety, environment, employment, etc. on top of trade laws. At that time it was patently obvious the UK was abiding by those laws but other countries were flouting them. Maastricht was the game changer where EU took supremacy over individual nations, which I don't propose to go into at length. Maastricht gave the EU Commission teeth to make member states tow the line. So we are out of the EU and I doubt we will ever go back. You can carry on posting what is wrong with leaving the EU, I will in future post about UK success outside of the EU. The benefits were and are enormous. Thousands of protections for consumers and workers. Huge economic boosts - increased gdp, strength of our currency, trade, less red tape, enough workers to meet demand, cheaper products which are of higher quality than Chinese equivalents No threat to the Good Friday Agreement. Not needing to spend billions of resources on setting mirror laws to replace what was in place with the sake thing, rolling over trade deals, endless debates and focus in Parliament. The drain on our civil service has been immeasurable and it has meant Parliament hasn’t done much else over the last few years. Keeping better diplomatic relations with our closest allies and neighbours Enforcement of English court orders in the EU was easier pre brexit Being a member of the European Arrest Warrant A member of Horizon and the massive R&D benefits that universities have lost out on since brexit. More high tax paying immigrants Less of a nhs staffing crisis Simplicity for travel and supplying services across borders Simplicity in health care when brits are in the EU Simplicity for UK drivers in the EU Since brexit hate crimes increased, channel boat crossings increased, our government became more corrupt and more useless (as the idiots took control, who happened to all be brexiteers or born again brexiteers) Arguably less sovereignty as we now have less power as a small nation rather than having the second biggest voice in the EU, where we had much more influence over USA, China etc. So we have to do as we are told more than ever and agree to what others want in international relations. Do the benefits outweigh the above? Can anyone even name some actual benefits (Clue: vaccines for covid wasn’t one as we could have done our own thing as part of the EU too).
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Post by str8outtahampton on Apr 1, 2023 9:20:33 GMT
What is the benefit of being in the EU apart from them making our laws? Gosh, where to start? Frictionless trade benefitting all member states Better relations between countries A more cohesive, less divided, less hostile Europe No wars between traditional European enemies for the longest period in European history Helping poorer European countries improve their standards of living through the redistribution of wealth from richer countries to poorer ones, thereby directly contributing to the point above. Just a very few right off the top of my head. All very Christian sounding benefits, really surprised* you can't see that. * I'm not. And in addition: They make our laws. Straight outta the Daily Mail. Simply not true.
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Post by mrcoke on Apr 1, 2023 9:52:14 GMT
I see you have got your history book out, 2007 to 2013; how far back do you want to go? The point I am trying to make is that the UK's net contribution to the EU was unfair. In 2017 net Euro billions contributions were: Germany 10.7, UK 5.3, France 4.6, Italy 3.6, Sweden 1.4, Netherlands 1.3. What is the benefit of being in the EU apart from them making our laws? As I pointed out above we were paying to be in the EU to "enjoy" a massive trade deficit with the EU. So a large financial contribution to an organisation that we enjoy a massive trade deficit with. It's a good job we have a huge positive trade balance with the rest of the world, where would the EU be without us propping them up? We have a massive trade deficit with Germany, so Germany can have a massive trade deficit with China. The UK is best to seek to achieve more self sufficiency and spread dependency on the rest of the world for trade. I am not saying stop trading with the EU countries, I am saying to reduce our dependence. There is no reason we cannot re-establish reciprocal arrangements on matter such as travel, security, residency, etc. that we enjoyed as members, when those who want to punish the UK for leaving and destroying their dream of a united states of Europe have left the scene. Going back to the CPTPP, obviously when you join a trade organisation you agree to abide by the rules on trade related matters. The EU is a completely different organisation with the objective of creating one state controlled by an elected bureaucracy, i.e. loss of sovereignty where EU law takes precedence over individual nations law. I see little point on carrying on this endless debate. You are clearly in favour of EU membership no matter what it costs the UK in sovereignty terms or financial terms. I used to be in favour of membership of the EEC where we gave up a small amount of sovereignty for the economic benefits of membership in the 70s and 80s. I started to have grave doubts in the 90s when there was a stream of legislations on health, safety, environment, employment, etc. on top of trade laws. At that time it was patently obvious the UK was abiding by those laws but other countries were flouting them. Maastricht was the game changer where EU took supremacy over individual nations, which I don't propose to go into at length. Maastricht gave the EU Commission teeth to make member states tow the line. So we are out of the EU and I doubt we will ever go back. You can carry on posting what is wrong with leaving the EU, I will in future post about UK success outside of the EU. The benefits were and are enormous. Thousands of protections for consumers and workers. Huge economic boosts - increased gdp, strength of our currency, trade, less red tape, enough workers to meet demand, cheaper products which are of higher quality than Chinese equivalents No threat to the Good Friday Agreement. Not needing to spend billions of resources on setting mirror laws to replace what was in place with the sake thing, rolling over trade deals, endless debates and focus in Parliament. The drain on our civil service has been immeasurable and it has meant Parliament hasn’t done much else over the last few years. Keeping better diplomatic relations with our closest allies and neighbours Enforcement of English court orders in the EU was easier pre brexit Being a member of the European Arrest Warrant A member of Horizon and the massive R&D benefits that universities have lost out on since brexit. More high tax paying immigrants Less of a nhs staffing crisis Simplicity for travel and supplying services across borders Simplicity in health care when brits are in the EU Simplicity for UK drivers in the EU Since brexit hate crimes increased, channel boat crossings increased, our government became more corrupt and more useless (as the idiots took control, who happened to all be brexiteers or born again brexiteers) Arguably less sovereignty as we now have less power as a small nation rather than having the second biggest voice in the EU, where we had much more influence over USA, China etc. So we have to do as we are told more than ever and agree to what others want in international relations. Do the benefits outweigh the above? Can anyone even name some actual benefits (Clue: vaccines for covid wasn’t one as we could have done our own thing as part of the EU too). A good list but virtually all could be agreed with reciprocal agreements once there is a will on both sides to agree what is mutually beneficial. Some are totally false claims like NHS staffing which I have posted at length at in the past. As I said in the preceding post there is little point in trawling over the same old ground. Thought you might like this: www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/king-charles-germany-visit-brexit-b2312239.html
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Post by 4372 on Apr 1, 2023 10:01:34 GMT
And, whilst out walking, I heard the story on the radio about the queues at Dover today. They seemed to be caused by new rules which were introduced post- Brexit. Passport examination now takes much longer, and is causing tiresome delays. Once again, the lives of ordinary people being sacrificed on the altar of Brexit.
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Post by wannabee on Apr 1, 2023 10:26:25 GMT
The more you have written over the last few pages it seems obvious you have little understanding or pretend not to understand the workings of CPTPP or how the Budget Contributions of EU Countries was calculated Contributions to EU Budget are not based on GDP but can be calculated either on GNI or Per Capita based on each Countries preference In the period 2007 to 2013 7 year Budget Cycle the Percentage Contribution to the TOTAL EU Budget by Country was Germany 19.90% France 17.76% Italy 13.57% UK 10.70% Spain 9.15% Are you seriously suggesting given the relative GDPs of these Countries that’s how the Contributions would have been calculated? I see you have got your history book out, 2007 to 2013; how far back do you want to go? The point I am trying to make is that the UK's net contribution to the EU was unfair. In 2017 net Euro billions contributions were: Germany 10.7, UK 5.3, France 4.6, Italy 3.6, Sweden 1.4, Netherlands 1.3. What is the benefit of being in the EU apart from them making our laws? As I pointed out above we were paying to be in the EU to "enjoy" a massive trade deficit with the EU. So a large financial contribution to an organisation that we enjoy a massive trade deficit with. It's a good job we have a huge positive trade balance with the rest of the world, where would the EU be without us propping them up? We have a massive trade deficit with Germany, so Germany can have a massive trade deficit with China. The UK is best to seek to achieve more self sufficiency and spread dependency on the rest of the world for trade. I am not saying stop trading with the EU countries, I am saying to reduce our dependence. There is no reason we cannot re-establish reciprocal arrangements on matter such as travel, security, residency, etc. that we enjoyed as members, when those who want to punish the UK for leaving and destroying their dream of a united states of Europe have left the scene. Going back to the CPTPP, obviously when you join a trade organisation you agree to abide by the rules on trade related matters. The EU is a completely different organisation with the objective of creating one state controlled by an elected bureaucracy, i.e. loss of sovereignty where EU law takes precedence over individual nations law. I see little point on carrying on this endless debate. You are clearly in favour of EU membership no matter what it costs the UK in sovereignty terms or financial terms. I used to be in favour of membership of the EEC where we gave up a small amount of sovereignty for the economic benefits of membership in the 70s and 80s. I started to have grave doubts in the 90s when there was a stream of legislations on health, safety, environment, employment, etc. on top of trade laws. At that time it was patently obvious the UK was abiding by those laws but other countries were flouting them. Maastricht was the game changer where EU took supremacy over individual nations, which I don't propose to go into at length. Maastricht gave the EU Commission teeth to make member states tow the line. So we are out of the EU and I doubt we will ever go back. You can carry on posting what is wrong with leaving the EU, I will in future post about UK success outside of the EU. How do you explain last year 2022 was the worst Trade Deficit with EU and ROW since records began? Let me give you a clue. UK Inc is not very competitive and productivity is low because Foreign and Domestic Investment has collapsed since 2016 (ithink you know what happened in 2016) data.worldbank.org/indicator/BX.KLT.DINV.WD.GD.ZS?locations=GB&start=2016BoE quantify it as a fall of £29Bn since Brexit www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/business/2023/feb/13/brexit-hit-uk-growth-by-29bn-says-bank-of-england-rate-setter
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Post by wannabee on Apr 1, 2023 10:56:39 GMT
Credit where it's due. Full marks to the Express and Mail for entering into the spirit of April Fools Day Thanks Red for giving me a good chuckle over my Cornflakes this morning. There were two particular gems in the Fail Article quoting Kemi "Mrs Badenoch contrasts the Trans-Pacific Partnership, whose 11 members include Australia, Japan, Canada and Singapore, with the ‘ rigid’ and ‘unelected’ EU"
I'm sure this would come as a big surprise to the people of Brunei's Absolute Monarchy or Singapores Autocracy, if they were ever allowed to read it "She calls the BBC – and Labour – shortsighted for citing official figures that the deal will add only a minuscule amount to GDP."Kemi says the BBC and Labour should not quote the Governments Official Figures Bwahahaha These Tory’s are deranged and being pandered to
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Post by oggyoggy on Apr 1, 2023 11:35:07 GMT
The benefits were and are enormous. Thousands of protections for consumers and workers. Huge economic boosts - increased gdp, strength of our currency, trade, less red tape, enough workers to meet demand, cheaper products which are of higher quality than Chinese equivalents No threat to the Good Friday Agreement. Not needing to spend billions of resources on setting mirror laws to replace what was in place with the sake thing, rolling over trade deals, endless debates and focus in Parliament. The drain on our civil service has been immeasurable and it has meant Parliament hasn’t done much else over the last few years. Keeping better diplomatic relations with our closest allies and neighbours Enforcement of English court orders in the EU was easier pre brexit Being a member of the European Arrest Warrant A member of Horizon and the massive R&D benefits that universities have lost out on since brexit. More high tax paying immigrants Less of a nhs staffing crisis Simplicity for travel and supplying services across borders Simplicity in health care when brits are in the EU Simplicity for UK drivers in the EU Since brexit hate crimes increased, channel boat crossings increased, our government became more corrupt and more useless (as the idiots took control, who happened to all be brexiteers or born again brexiteers) Arguably less sovereignty as we now have less power as a small nation rather than having the second biggest voice in the EU, where we had much more influence over USA, China etc. So we have to do as we are told more than ever and agree to what others want in international relations. Do the benefits outweigh the above? Can anyone even name some actual benefits (Clue: vaccines for covid wasn’t one as we could have done our own thing as part of the EU too). A good list but virtually all could be agreed with reciprocal agreements once there is a will on both sides to agree what is mutually beneficial. Some are totally false claims like NHS staffing which I have posted at length at in the past. As I said in the preceding post there is little point in trawling over the same old ground. Thought you might like this: www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/king-charles-germany-visit-brexit-b2312239.htmlIt is a good list. It sure beats the list of benefits from brexit which you have conveniently forgotten to provide. Can you? Then we can compare and contrast.
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Post by toppercorner on Apr 1, 2023 11:41:02 GMT
Gosh, where to start? Frictionless trade benefitting all member states Better relations between countries A more cohesive, less divided, less hostile Europe No wars between traditional European enemies for the longest period in European history Helping poorer European countries improve their standards of living through the redistribution of wealth from richer countries to poorer ones, thereby directly contributing to the point above. Just a very few right off the top of my head. All very Christian sounding benefits, really surprised* you can't see that. * I'm not. And in addition: They make our laws. Straight outta the Daily Mail. Simply not true. You have to wonder what brexiteers will say when the laws of the uk are ignored by private corporations running freeports around the uk. A good example is in Saltburn right now, where the dredging of the seabed is killing all the sealife, and our delightful Theresa Coffey simply won't do anything about it, as it's earmarked as a freeport. The people and businesses in those areas will then be accountable to private company rules not the UK. Sovereignty (not)!
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Apr 1, 2023 13:02:34 GMT
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Post by mrcoke on Apr 1, 2023 13:20:45 GMT
A good list but virtually all could be agreed with reciprocal agreements once there is a will on both sides to agree what is mutually beneficial. Some are totally false claims like NHS staffing which I have posted at length at in the past. As I said in the preceding post there is little point in trawling over the same old ground. Thought you might like this: www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/king-charles-germany-visit-brexit-b2312239.htmlIt is a good list. It sure beats the list of benefits from brexit which you have conveniently forgotten to provide. Can you? Then we can compare and contrast. I spelt out my reasons for supporting Brexit on page 1,232 in 2020. They have been endlessly repeated in subsequent years, so I see little point in constantly repeating. I now plan just to report how well the UK is performing in post Brexit years as I have been doing on a quarterly basis, last time on page 1,508. Happy reading.
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Post by mrcoke on Apr 1, 2023 13:41:10 GMT
I see you have got your history book out, 2007 to 2013; how far back do you want to go? The point I am trying to make is that the UK's net contribution to the EU was unfair. In 2017 net Euro billions contributions were: Germany 10.7, UK 5.3, France 4.6, Italy 3.6, Sweden 1.4, Netherlands 1.3. What is the benefit of being in the EU apart from them making our laws? As I pointed out above we were paying to be in the EU to "enjoy" a massive trade deficit with the EU. So a large financial contribution to an organisation that we enjoy a massive trade deficit with. It's a good job we have a huge positive trade balance with the rest of the world, where would the EU be without us propping them up? We have a massive trade deficit with Germany, so Germany can have a massive trade deficit with China. The UK is best to seek to achieve more self sufficiency and spread dependency on the rest of the world for trade. I am not saying stop trading with the EU countries, I am saying to reduce our dependence. There is no reason we cannot re-establish reciprocal arrangements on matter such as travel, security, residency, etc. that we enjoyed as members, when those who want to punish the UK for leaving and destroying their dream of a united states of Europe have left the scene. Going back to the CPTPP, obviously when you join a trade organisation you agree to abide by the rules on trade related matters. The EU is a completely different organisation with the objective of creating one state controlled by an elected bureaucracy, i.e. loss of sovereignty where EU law takes precedence over individual nations law. I see little point on carrying on this endless debate. You are clearly in favour of EU membership no matter what it costs the UK in sovereignty terms or financial terms. I used to be in favour of membership of the EEC where we gave up a small amount of sovereignty for the economic benefits of membership in the 70s and 80s. I started to have grave doubts in the 90s when there was a stream of legislations on health, safety, environment, employment, etc. on top of trade laws. At that time it was patently obvious the UK was abiding by those laws but other countries were flouting them. Maastricht was the game changer where EU took supremacy over individual nations, which I don't propose to go into at length. Maastricht gave the EU Commission teeth to make member states tow the line. So we are out of the EU and I doubt we will ever go back. You can carry on posting what is wrong with leaving the EU, I will in future post about UK success outside of the EU. How do you explain last year 2022 was the worst Trade Deficit with EU and ROW since records began? Let me give you a clue. UK Inc is not very competitive and productivity is low because Foreign and Domestic Investment has collapsed since 2016 (ithink you know what happened in 2016) data.worldbank.org/indicator/BX.KLT.DINV.WD.GD.ZS?locations=GB&start=2016BoE quantify it as a fall of £29Bn since Brexit www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/business/2023/feb/13/brexit-hit-uk-growth-by-29bn-says-bank-of-england-rate-setterTrade is at record levels in terms of exports and imports. The UK is a major importer of energy and food. The war in Ukraine has created world record inflation in energy and food prices, consequently the UK balance of payments has suffered. The adverse trade balance is nothing to do with Brexit. Your link to FDI is very misleading and typical of those that try to paint a black picture of Brexit or to mislead. Whilst not denying investment paused after the referendum by investors to see whether or not the UK secured a trade deal with the EU, investment in the years after the referendum was not significantly different to 2001 to 2004, 2010 to 2013. 2016 was a good year for investment so those opposed to Brexit choose to start from that point to make a graph look bad. Please look at the last 25 years for a balanced picture: tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/foreign-direct-investmentThere are a constant stream of claims of Brexit damage by people extrapolating graphs of events before 2016 and assuming things would have continued that way post 2016. In the case of investment the major change has been the reduction in North Sea oil investment industry which was going to happen anyway due to climate change. I have explained this before but it seems no one reads or chooses not to understand.
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Post by foghornsgleghorn on Apr 1, 2023 13:48:03 GMT
And, whilst out walking, I heard the story on the radio about the queues at Dover today. They seemed to be caused by new rules which were introduced post- Brexit. Passport examination now takes much longer, and is causing tiresome delays. Once again, the lives of ordinary people being sacrificed on the altar of Brexit. Yes- Simon Calder saying it is due to Brexit and it's what the UK wanted. Perhaps all the coach loads of schoolkids stuck at Dover can have the boredom relieved by being given an explanation as to why their parents and grandparents have ruined their trip for the sake of a blue passport.
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Post by neworleanstokie on Apr 1, 2023 13:52:32 GMT
And, whilst out walking, I heard the story on the radio about the queues at Dover today. They seemed to be caused by new rules which were introduced post- Brexit. Passport examination now takes much longer, and is causing tiresome delays. Once again, the lives of ordinary people being sacrificed on the altar of Brexit. apparently our very own Comical Ali Coke was not inconvenienced as he typed up his usual diatribe of Brexit copy/paste tripe this morning.
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Post by wannabee on Apr 1, 2023 15:26:31 GMT
The more you have written over the last few pages it seems obvious you have little understanding or pretend not to understand the workings of CPTPP or how the Budget Contributions of EU Countries was calculated Contributions to EU Budget are not based on GDP but can be calculated either on GNI or Per Capita based on each Countries preference In the period 2007 to 2013 7 year Budget Cycle the Percentage Contribution to the TOTAL EU Budget by Country was Germany 19.90% France 17.76% Italy 13.57% UK 10.70% Spain 9.15% Are you seriously suggesting given the relative GDPs of these Countries that’s how the Contributions would have been calculated? I see you have got your history book out, 2007 to 2013; how far back do you want to go? The point I am trying to make is that the UK's net contribution to the EU was unfair. In 2017 net Euro billions contributions were: Germany 10.7, UK 5.3, France 4.6, Italy 3.6, Sweden 1.4, Netherlands 1.3. What is the benefit of being in the EU apart from them making our laws? As I pointed out above we were paying to be in the EU to "enjoy" a massive trade deficit with the EU. So a large financial contribution to an organisation that we enjoy a massive trade deficit with. It's a good job we have a huge positive trade balance with the rest of the world, where would the EU be without us propping them up? We have a massive trade deficit with Germany, so Germany can have a massive trade deficit with China. The UK is best to seek to achieve more self sufficiency and spread dependency on the rest of the world for trade. I am not saying stop trading with the EU countries, I am saying to reduce our dependence. There is no reason we cannot re-establish reciprocal arrangements on matter such as travel, security, residency, etc. that we enjoyed as members, when those who want to punish the UK for leaving and destroying their dream of a united states of Europe have left the scene. Going back to the CPTPP, obviously when you join a trade organisation you agree to abide by the rules on trade related matters. The EU is a completely different organisation with the objective of creating one state controlled by an elected bureaucracy, i.e. loss of sovereignty where EU law takes precedence over individual nations law. I see little point on carrying on this endless debate. You are clearly in favour of EU membership no matter what it costs the UK in sovereignty terms or financial terms. I used to be in favour of membership of the EEC where we gave up a small amount of sovereignty for the economic benefits of membership in the 70s and 80s. I started to have grave doubts in the 90s when there was a stream of legislations on health, safety, environment, employment, etc. on top of trade laws. At that time it was patently obvious the UK was abiding by those laws but other countries were flouting them. Maastricht was the game changer where EU took supremacy over individual nations, which I don't propose to go into at length. Maastricht gave the EU Commission teeth to make member states tow the line. So we are out of the EU and I doubt we will ever go back. You can carry on posting what is wrong with leaving the EU, I will in future post about UK success outside of the EU. As you well know EU sets a Budget for 7 years and this was the last full period before UK decided to Foxtrot Oscar In any event it doesn't alter the fact that your point was bogus a) UK didn't pay an inordinate share of the EU Budget and b) You were completely wrong in how the Budget for each Country was calculated. Only you will know if this was ignorence on your part or you were being deliberately misleading
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Post by oggyoggy on Apr 1, 2023 15:32:40 GMT
It is a good list. It sure beats the list of benefits from brexit which you have conveniently forgotten to provide. Can you? Then we can compare and contrast. I spelt out my reasons for supporting Brexit on page 1,232 in 2020.  They have been endlessly repeated in subsequent years, so I see little point in constantly repeating. I now plan just to report how well the UK is performing in post Brexit years as I have been doing on a quarterly basis, last time on page 1,508. Happy reading. Still waiting for one positive of brexit…….
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Apr 1, 2023 18:16:24 GMT
I spelt out my reasons for supporting Brexit on page 1,232 in 2020. They have been endlessly repeated in subsequent years, so I see little point in constantly repeating. I now plan just to report how well the UK is performing in post Brexit years as I have been doing on a quarterly basis, last time on page 1,508. Happy reading. Still waiting for one positive of brexit……. Well, let's have a think about the ones they used to mention... Controlling our borders....nope Reducing immigration....nope Increased trade....nope Being better off...nope Cheaper food....nope Funding the NHS....nope Stronger environmental protections....nope Making our own laws....always could
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Post by smallthorner on Apr 1, 2023 19:21:26 GMT
Still waiting for one positive of brexit……. Well, let's have a think about the ones they used to mention... Controlling our borders....nope Reducing immigration....nope Increased trade....nope Being better off...nope Cheaper food....nope Funding the NHS....nope Stronger environmental protections....nope Making our own laws....always could International isolation .... yes More threat of invasion and war... yes
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Post by generationex on Apr 1, 2023 20:12:27 GMT
Badenoch’s own department figures : the CPTPP deal will add ‘0.08% to GDP’ in 10 years!
But she’s disappointed the BBC is reporting the facts!
I bet she is.
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Post by 4372 on Apr 1, 2023 20:35:23 GMT
I spelt out my reasons for supporting Brexit on page 1,232 in 2020.  They have been endlessly repeated in subsequent years, so I see little point in constantly repeating. I now plan just to report how well the UK is performing in post Brexit years as I have been doing on a quarterly basis, last time on page 1,508. Happy reading. Still waiting for one positive of brexit……. A car battery has got more positive points than Brexit.
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Post by wannabee on Apr 2, 2023 12:04:38 GMT
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Post by foghornsgleghorn on Apr 2, 2023 12:11:42 GMT
So Braverman says that the queues at Dover are nothing to do with Brexit, despite the fact that those affected are on coaches which now require everyone to get off for passport checks following Brexit.
Shame for the coach companies which have had a brutal time since covid. Just another sector with things made worse by the vanity project.
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