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Post by capto on May 23, 2017 18:57:14 GMT
What does your pressure look like? Will there be fewer angry young men if we start rounding up families and shutting down mosques? Or do we just need to take all rights away from all Muslims? I want fewer people dying in suicide attacks and I'm convinced that the best way to do this is to be the shining example of progress and integrate the muslims who're here. Attacking Islam in general will make it the West vs Islam, instead of the West and some Islamic countries versus a tiny fraction of mentalists. Closing down radicalised mosques and schools is an absolute minimum. Pressure should be put on search engines to take down the vile propaganda that's on there. Life sentences for anyone who knew or aided this scum in anyway. Banning full face veils which are in my opinion a form of abuse and can no way be part of an integrated society. Lock up anyone found to have been to fight in Syria. Outlaw Sharia courts in the UK. The terrorists are a tiny fraction but the muslim community continue to tolerate extremist teaching in their schools and their places of worship. They've been given ample opportunity to cut out the scum hiding in their midst and have failed. It's time the government stepped up and sorted it out instead of the usual platitudes about carrying on, standing together and making love heart symbols with your fingers. This PM has had 2 terrorist attacks in as many months after serving as home secretary for 6 years, any more she'll have failed in her duty to protect the British public. How do you know the Muslim community tolerate extremist teaching? If you have proof, you should report it to the police. Why do you loud mouths always say its up to someone else to sort it out? If you have any knowledge at all, and drawing comparisons with previous terrorists, you cannot defeat them with terror and punishment - you talk to the leaders and use the rule of law against the activists.
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2017 19:01:10 GMT
I was in the crowd just near the front and was genuinely choked by that. A great response to such a shitty act of cowardice....
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Post by boothenboy75 on May 23, 2017 19:12:07 GMT
Closing down radicalised mosques and schools is an absolute minimum. Pressure should be put on search engines to take down the vile propaganda that's on there. Life sentences for anyone who knew or aided this scum in anyway. Banning full face veils which are in my opinion a form of abuse and can no way be part of an integrated society. Lock up anyone found to have been to fight in Syria. Outlaw Sharia courts in the UK. The terrorists are a tiny fraction but the muslim community continue to tolerate extremist teaching in their schools and their places of worship. They've been given ample opportunity to cut out the scum hiding in their midst and have failed. It's time the government stepped up and sorted it out instead of the usual platitudes about carrying on, standing together and making love heart symbols with your fingers. This PM has had 2 terrorist attacks in as many months after serving as home secretary for 6 years, any more she'll have failed in her duty to protect the British public. How do you know the Muslim community tolerate extremist teaching? If you have proof, you should report it to the police. Why do you loud mouths always say its up to someone else to sort it out? If you have any knowledge at all, and drawing comparisons with previous terrorists, you cannot defeat them with terror and punishment - you talk to the leaders and use the rule of law against the activists. How many schools was it that operated a Saudi curriculum? How many parents complained? How many parents were so sickened at the teachings of hatred toward Jews and gays they removed their kids? I refuse to believe that nobody within this sick twats community suspected what he may do. Anyone who did and can be convicted should spend a hell of a long time behind bars. Oh and dickhead read it again and you'll see I don't want the muslim community to sort it out. I want our elected government to sort it.
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Post by mtrstudent on May 23, 2017 19:17:28 GMT
Closing down radicalised mosques and schools is an absolute minimum. Pressure should be put on search engines to take down the vile propaganda that's on there. Life sentences for anyone who knew or aided this scum in anyway. Banning full face veils which are in my opinion a form of abuse and can no way be part of an integrated society. Lock up anyone found to have been to fight in Syria. Outlaw Sharia courts in the UK. I agree on schools and dealing with propaganda, convictions for helpers and not giving any power to Sharia courts. But what's the exact rule you want for propaganda? Does that also apply to people tweeting about getting a "final solution" for Muslims, or is it only Muslims whose free speech gets limited? And can you name a single terrorist attack that would have been stopped by banning the veil? The terrorists are a tiny fraction but the muslim community continue to tolerate extremist teaching in their schools and their places of worship. They've been given ample opportunity to cut out the scum hiding in their midst and have failed. I can't find a UK summary, but in the US Muslims have helped over and over again to bring down the scum in their midst. And from 9/11 to San Bernardino, right wing terrorists killed more Americans than Muslim terrorists, but there was no outcry demanding that rights get taken away from right wingers. People seem pretty similar worldwide. Just as we have people here calling all Muslims the enemy and others saying it's some Muslims, there are Muslims saying that the whole West is the enemy and others arguing against them. The more we take rights away from, or kill, innocent Muslims, the stronger the violent ones will get. Just like how every terrorist attack makes our violent group want to respond with more violence. It's the Islamic State's dream - they're desperate, losing territory and despite building their dream Caliphate and opening the doors wide for 1.6 billion Muslims, hardly anyone wanted to go join them. They are a sad, desperate, lonely bunch and they desperately need Western attacks on Islam to build up recruitment. It's time the government stepped up and sorted it out instead of the usual platitudes about carrying on, standing together and making love heart symbols with your fingers. This PM has had 2 terrorist attacks in as many months after serving as home secretary for 6 years, any more she'll have failed in her duty to protect the British public. Can you seriously guarantee that by shutting down mosques and banning the veil there will be zero more attacks ever?
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Post by mtrstudent on May 23, 2017 19:22:43 GMT
There is a real risk of discourse and policy moving in such a way that otherises Muslims. Likewise, there is a risk in the media (social and mainstream) that language is used in such a way to remove all nuance. 'You are either with us or against us' sort of stuff that facilitates a move toward a hellish dystopia.And it goes further and further. Let's say you start putting Muslims in camps without trial. Then you get lawyers and journalists speaking out against taking away human rights, then the next day TRAITORS screams the Daily Mail and now that you've suspended human rights the government can start locking up lawyers and journalists. Pro-freedom people campaign and protest against locking up lawyers and protesters, and politicians go on the telly shouting about how these people are undermining British strength and security so they need to be locked up too. There will always be people who go along with this sort of thing in any society - it's happened over and over again through history. Liberal democracy and guaranteed human rights just stopped it for a while. We need to defend it, because that's what makes Britain and the West special and amazing.
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Post by boothenboy75 on May 23, 2017 19:30:15 GMT
Closing down radicalised mosques and schools is an absolute minimum. Pressure should be put on search engines to take down the vile propaganda that's on there. Life sentences for anyone who knew or aided this scum in anyway. Banning full face veils which are in my opinion a form of abuse and can no way be part of an integrated society. Lock up anyone found to have been to fight in Syria. Outlaw Sharia courts in the UK. I agree on schools and dealing with propaganda, convictions for helpers and not giving any power to Sharia courts. But what's the exact rule you want for propaganda? Does that also apply to people tweeting about getting a "final solution" for Muslims, or is it only Muslims whose free speech gets limited? And can you name a single terrorist attack that would have been stopped by banning the veil? The terrorists are a tiny fraction but the muslim community continue to tolerate extremist teaching in their schools and their places of worship. They've been given ample opportunity to cut out the scum hiding in their midst and have failed. I can't find a UK summary, but in the US Muslims have helped over and over again to bring down the scum in their midst. And from 9/11 to San Bernardino, right wing terrorists killed more Americans than Muslim terrorists, but there was no outcry demanding that rights get taken away from right wingers. People seem pretty similar worldwide. Just as we have people here calling all Muslims the enemy and others saying it's some Muslims, there are Muslims saying that the whole West is the enemy and others arguing against them. The more we take rights away from, or kill, innocent Muslims, the stronger the violent ones will get. Just like how every terrorist attack makes our violent group want to respond with more violence. It's the Islamic State's dream - they're desperate, losing territory and despite building their dream Caliphate and opening the doors wide for 1.6 billion Muslims, hardly anyone wanted to go join them. They are a sad, desperate, lonely bunch and they desperately need Western attacks on Islam to build up recruitment. It's time the government stepped up and sorted it out instead of the usual platitudes about carrying on, standing together and making love heart symbols with your fingers. This PM has had 2 terrorist attacks in as many months after serving as home secretary for 6 years, any more she'll have failed in her duty to protect the British public. Can you seriously guarantee that by shutting down mosques and banning the veil there will be zero more attacks ever? A fair response mate. Dealing with your questions in order: Propoganda- I'd have anything posted by ISIS removed from the internet their posts and propaganda are on their to garner support around the world and there is absolutely no need for it to be available in the UK. There are loads of other things that could be taken down but as we'retalking about terrorism that's what included in my post. In my opinion people aren't the same the world over and fair play to US muslims for doing what I've only ever read about UK muslims doing once in averting a terrorist attack. Perhaps US muslims feel American first and muslim second? something I don't believe many British muslims do. I've never said we should attack and kill innocent muslims. I'd be very happy leaving the crackpots in the middle east to it and let them sort their own issues in their own way, namely by killing each other as they hate each other just as much as they do us. Of course we can never guarantee no attacks but doing absolutely everything we can to root out radicalisation whilst encouraging integration to western values must help.
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Post by thevoid on May 23, 2017 19:45:01 GMT
It's not as simple as monitoring mosques, they're probably getting their brainwashing and instructions off the internet.
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Post by partickpotter on May 23, 2017 19:46:19 GMT
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Post by salopstick on May 23, 2017 19:49:09 GMT
I've read and listened today to a few Muslim leaders stating that this cunt doesn't represent their community (cunt is my word)
To be honest I'm getting bored of the same old lines. I do agree they are saying the truth
However these leaders need to start doing a lot more within their community to spot the signs of radicalisation and do more to preach the anti-IS message
These guys are on the shop floor so to speak and need to start being leaders within their community.
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Post by crapslinger on May 23, 2017 19:49:17 GMT
I was in the crowd just near the front and was genuinely choked by that. A great response to such a shitty act of cowardice.... Was there a significant presence from the Muslim community ?, only seen it on TV I did not see any though TV can be deceptive though you would have expected a large turn out by them in an area which contains a significant Muslim population.
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2017 19:53:26 GMT
I was in the crowd just near the front and was genuinely choked by that. A great response to such a shitty act of cowardice.... Was there a significant presence from the Muslim community ?, only seen it on TV I did not see any though TV can be deceptive though you would have expected a large turn out by them in an area which contains a significant Muslim population. Yes there was. And Jews, Sikhs and people from all race, creed, colour.....
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Post by The Drunken Communist on May 23, 2017 20:04:55 GMT
Was there a significant presence from the Muslim community ?, only seen it on TV I did not see any though TV can be deceptive though you would have expected a large turn out by them in an area which contains a significant Muslim population. The Sikhs were out in force...
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Post by desman2 on May 23, 2017 20:06:02 GMT
That'll put the fear of God in em
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Post by mtrstudent on May 23, 2017 20:06:44 GMT
Propoganda- I'd have anything posted by ISIS removed from the internet their posts and propaganda are on their to garner support around the world and there is absolutely no need for it to be available in the UK. There are loads of other things that could be taken down but as we'retalking about terrorism that's what included in my post. That could work if we limit it to groups like ISIS. I want the government to push the media more to show what it's doing so we can work out if it's enough. But this is really hard on the internet. I want more obvious effort on this, but I don't want to lose our freedom like in Russia or China. In my opinion people aren't the same the world over and fair play to US muslims for doing what I've only ever read about UK muslims doing once in averting a terrorist attack. Perhaps US muslims feel American first and muslim second? something I don't believe many British muslims do. I don't think we have the stats to be sure. Basically all the Muslims I know are decent folk who play footy and come out with us like normal. Their parents are usually more conservative but I want my mates to be the normal examples for their young cousins etc. It's probably worse in more shut-off areas, but if we want to get in and change things there then they're more likely to trust other Muslim examples than white policemen kicking their doors down. Back in the 1700s and 1800s we had this argument about the Irish and the politicians at the time were under so much pressure to attack the Irish at home whenever we fought Catholic France. We worked together and eventually gave them equal rights while cracking down on the violent side. I want to see a similar thing today: leave the door open to Muslims and always, always make it clear we're only after the extremists. I've never said we should attack and kill innocent muslims. I'd be very happy leaving the crackpots in the middle east to it and let them sort their own issues in their own way, namely by killing each other as they hate each other just as much as they do us. I dunno what I'd do with that shit show if given the power, it's a toughie. Locally though, if we don't put all our Muslims in concentration camps or something, then blundering in and shutting down mosques etc will just make it really easy to point at us as the enemy unless we have very good evidence for each mosque and we apply the same rules to non-Muslims as well. Of course we can never guarantee no attacks but doing absolutely everything we can to root out radicalisation whilst encouraging integration to western values must help. That's why I think it's unfair to say stuff like "if there's one more attack, it's May's fault" - no one can guarantee safety and it's really easy to make things worse. EDIT: gotta get back to work now, thanks for talking stuff through and giving me stuff to think about. We're a country of different thinkers, and more importantly a country that's listened to different thinkers instead of shutting them down like Putin. Every time this happens it hurts and sickens me, but I know we can solve this.
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Post by rogerjonesisgod on May 23, 2017 20:13:20 GMT
I've read and listened today to a few Muslim leaders stating that this cunt doesn't represent their community (cunt is my word) To be honest I'm getting bored of the same old lines. I do agree they are saying the truth However these leaders need to start doing a lot more within their community to spot the signs of radicalisation and do more to preach the anti-IS message These guys are on the shop floor so to speak and need to start being leaders within their community. The UK's counter-terrorism strategy is called CONTEST Spotting the signs comes under the PREVENT section. Basically its asking communities, schools, NHS etc to alert authorities to suspected radicalisation. The Muslim Communities have argued this stigmatises ALL the Muslim community. You'll notice the usual suspects in the wiki criticism section. Chakrabati etc. For me we need PREVENT on steroids, open door Islamic centres, Germany's policy of "birth doesn't guarantee residency", removal of hate preachers from the streets, among other things. Islamic fundamentalism has changed the rules for that community. I don't care anymore if we treat them differently to the Chinese community or the Sikh community. I'm not really bothered about the moral high ground. EDIT: Imagine if there was a sect of Stoke supporters on a worldwide terror campaign, killing children. We would go out of our way to out them. We would be dobbing them in left right and centre, even relatives, if we knew who they were. We would welcome closer scrutiny and happily comply with any PREVENT type programme. The Islamic faith and Muslim communities don't react the same way.
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Post by thevoid on May 23, 2017 20:14:57 GMT
Was there a significant presence from the Muslim community ?, only seen it on TV I did not see any though TV can be deceptive though you would have expected a large turn out by them in an area which contains a significant Muslim population. The Sikhs were out in force... I wouldn't expect anything different.
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Post by metalhead on May 23, 2017 20:16:20 GMT
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on May 23, 2017 20:26:11 GMT
It's a minority Islamic problem. Not a full blown Islamic problem. It needs the whole Islamic community to help solve it. There is no point trying to point the finger at the whole religion that would be wrong but the country must be more robust in how they handle this problem They must be prepared to target Specific Muslim groups/communities/targets etc for things like terror or the sexual stuff in Rochdale with our fear of being accused of racism. Some they will get wrong unfortunately but most they will get right. Most muslims abhor this shit and integrate and are horrified as all. Oh and religious schools of all faiths need fucking off. Great post, concisely sums up what I've been trying to suggest throughout the day. Macro persecution of a religious group will solve nothing. Investigations into "hotbeds" of radical activity are required, and this will only be possible via the involvement and integration of regular Muslims of all sects into the process.
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Post by crapslinger on May 23, 2017 20:30:10 GMT
The Sikhs were out in force... I wouldn't expect anything different. Chalk and Cheese two very different communities with very different views on integration.
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Post by crapslinger on May 23, 2017 20:31:57 GMT
It's a minority Islamic problem. Not a full blown Islamic problem. It needs the whole Islamic community to help solve it. There is no point trying to point the finger at the whole religion that would be wrong but the country must be more robust in how they handle this problem They must be prepared to target Specific Muslim groups/communities/targets etc for things like terror or the sexual stuff in Rochdale with our fear of being accused of racism. Some they will get wrong unfortunately but most they will get right. Most muslims abhor this shit and integrate and are horrified as all. Oh and religious schools of all faiths need fucking off. Great post, concisely sums up what I've been trying to suggest throughout the day. Macro persecution of a religious group will solve nothing. Investigations into "hotbeds" of radical activity are required, and this will only be possible via the involvement and integration of regular Muslims of all sects into the process. I agree, however integration of Muslims well good luck with that one.
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Post by rogerjonesisgod on May 23, 2017 20:45:38 GMT
They follow the words of some bloke who wrote a book after he said Allah gave him the message. Sounds pretty complicit to me. And by the way, all muslims, good or bad follow that book. The Quaran has many variants because of differing Arabic dialects and endless translations-retranslations. Wahhabi Quaran is ultra-conservative and is largely the Quaran followed by ISIS. You sure? The Quran is studied and recited in the original Arabic. I know there are many different dialects but there is only one book. It's the interpretation of the wording that steer different strands of Islam but it's not difficult to be spurred on to violence by any of it if that's what you're looking for.
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2017 20:46:46 GMT
Terror threat raised to critical, meaning another attack is imminent.
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Post by scfcwebby on May 23, 2017 20:47:22 GMT
The national terrorism threat has been raised to critical, the highest threat possible and military personel will probably be deployed on the sreets!
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Post by desman2 on May 23, 2017 20:47:36 GMT
I wouldn't expect anything different. Chalk and Cheese two very different communities with very different views on integration. Sikhs dont't follow a religion as such. They follow a philosophy based on the teachings of a very wise mortal man. Its only Christians and Muslims who follow some mystical entity who dosnt exist. I mean, fuck me a child realises santa dosnt exist early on in life but adults dont get it.
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2017 20:48:04 GMT
Great post, concisely sums up what I've been trying to suggest throughout the day. Macro persecution of a religious group will solve nothing. Investigations into "hotbeds" of radical activity are required, and this will only be possible via the involvement and integration of regular Muslims of all sects into the process. I agree, however integration of Muslims well good luck with that one. If you get out of your ST postcode once in a while you'll find that whilst it might not be Utopia integration does occur.....
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Post by rogerjonesisgod on May 23, 2017 20:49:04 GMT
National terror alert increased to CRITICAL - means an(other) attack is expected imminently.
Operation Temperer in effect. Up to 5000 Military on the streets.
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Post by nicholasjalcock on May 23, 2017 20:53:11 GMT
Terror threat raised to critical, meaning another attack is imminent. Correct. Usually though with increased security and heightened public awareness there is a lull of several weeks?
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Post by crapslinger on May 23, 2017 20:54:13 GMT
Chalk and Cheese two very different communities with very different views on integration. Sikhs dont't follow a religion as such. They follow a philosophy based on the teachings of a very wise mortal man. Its only Christians and Muslims who follow some mystical entity who dosnt exist. I mean, fuck me a child realises santa dosnt exist early on in life but adults dont get it. I was comparing the communities not their religious belief's sorry if I did not make myself clear, I have worked with a number of Sikhs who to my surprise/ignorance celebrated Christmas, they also had a strong dislike for Muslims and I do mean strong.
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Post by desman2 on May 23, 2017 20:57:53 GMT
Sikhs dont't follow a religion as such. They follow a philosophy based on the teachings of a very wise mortal man. Its only Christians and Muslims who follow some mystical entity who dosnt exist. I mean, fuck me a child realises santa dosnt exist early on in life but adults dont get it. I was comparing the communities not their religious belief's sorry if I did not make myself clear, I have worked with a number of Sikhs who to my surprise/ignorance celebrated Christmas, they also had a strong dislike for Muslims and I do mean strong. No matey. I was just getting in before anyone called it a religion, not having a pop at your post
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Post by crapslinger on May 23, 2017 20:59:50 GMT
Terror threat raised to critical, meaning another attack is imminent. Correct. Usually though with increased security and heightened public awareness there is a lull of several weeks? No surprise there then the cowardly bastards going into hiding in their rat infested ghettos in case they get caught or better still shot dead, now is the time to move on those on the watched lists dawn raids armed police, news blockade get in get them out with force if necessary route the bastards out any resistance to be met with force, bring in the troops if necessary we are at was now they have dictated the theatre play them at their own game.
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