|
|
Post by biddulphchav on Nov 7, 2024 10:16:10 GMT
I agree, but that's absolutely no consolation. There is a huge vacuum that has been created. It's nothing to do with left or liberal, it's just a combination of sheer incompetence and self interest. But what is filling this vacuum is beyond dire. My point is I cant see how anyone can muster any kind of enthusiasm for this option There is absolutely nothing to celebrate here. You cant be enthusiastic about someone because they are a better liar than the one standing next to them. I agree in part. I do think wokery (which is a "liberal" but deeply illiberal concept) is really starting to piss ordinary people off now. You can just feel that the majority in the West are starting to turn and have really had enough of this shit. The woke ideology of Harris combined with her painfully patronising tone on such subjects will have cost her significant votes. Throw in a stagnant economy, border crisis, inability to tackle foreign affairs and severe dip in law and order and Trump winning is probably the least surprising news of the week. Have to agree with this to a large extent. I also think the refusal to acknowledge ordinary peoples concerns or push back to wokeness, and in fact, the way you are labelled if you oppose any of it, has contributed to this shift to the other side, or rejection of the Democrats. Both sides of the political sphere these days are totally intolerant of the other, but there is a duplicitous undertone from the left where essentially, tolerance and acceptance is preached, unless you disagree, at which point you are fair game. For a lot of ordinary people, this contributes to the lack of trust we have in the political establishment. On the flip side you have Trump, who doesn’t seem to calculate his words beforehand, just rocks up and spews out whatever comes into his head. Whether or not he is trustworthy or not, I can’t say, but he seems more genuine. We need more common sense in politics, and we also need our politicians to behave with more dignity, watching this election campaign was pretty cringeworthy at times. |
|
|
|
Post by salopstick on Nov 7, 2024 10:29:44 GMT
I agree in part. I do think wokery (which is a "liberal" but deeply illiberal concept) is really starting to piss ordinary people off now. You can just feel that the majority in the West are starting to turn and have really had enough of this shit. The woke ideology of Harris combined with her painfully patronising tone on such subjects will have cost her significant votes. Throw in a stagnant economy, border crisis, inability to tackle foreign affairs and severe dip in law and order and Trump winning is probably the least surprising news of the week. Have to agree with this to a large extent. I also think the refusal to acknowledge ordinary peoples concerns or push back to wokeness, and in fact, the way you are labelled if you oppose any of it, has contributed to this shift to the other side, or rejection of the Democrats. Both sides of the political sphere these days are totally intolerant of the other, but there is a duplicitous undertone from the left where essentially, tolerance and acceptance is preached, unless you disagree, at which point you are fair game. For a lot of ordinary people, this contributes to the lack of trust we have in the political establishment. On the flip side you have Trump, who doesn’t seem to calculate his words beforehand, just rocks up and spews out whatever comes into his head. Whether or not he is trustworthy or not, I can’t say, but he seems more genuine. We need more common sense in politics, and we also need our politicians to behave with more dignity, watching this election campaign was pretty cringeworthy at times. If Bernie Sanders had the charisma of Donald Trump....................................... |
|
|
|
Post by biddulphchav on Nov 7, 2024 10:41:15 GMT
Have to agree with this to a large extent. I also think the refusal to acknowledge ordinary peoples concerns or push back to wokeness, and in fact, the way you are labelled if you oppose any of it, has contributed to this shift to the other side, or rejection of the Democrats. Both sides of the political sphere these days are totally intolerant of the other, but there is a duplicitous undertone from the left where essentially, tolerance and acceptance is preached, unless you disagree, at which point you are fair game. For a lot of ordinary people, this contributes to the lack of trust we have in the political establishment. On the flip side you have Trump, who doesn’t seem to calculate his words beforehand, just rocks up and spews out whatever comes into his head. Whether or not he is trustworthy or not, I can’t say, but he seems more genuine. We need more common sense in politics, and we also need our politicians to behave with more dignity, watching this election campaign was pretty cringeworthy at times. If Bernie Sanders had the charisma of Donald Trump....................................... Not just the charisma, although that certainly might help. I would vote for someone who said they’d make changes to how sex education is being taught in schools, and how much information children are given at a very young age for example. I’d like to have the option to teach my kids tolerance and respect as values, without taking away their innocence and having them grapple with concepts their brains aren’t equipped to handle. To me that’s common sense. These type of issues are important to parents, and you can see in the result that the people have voted on issues like this accordingly. |
|
|
|
Post by wannabee on Nov 7, 2024 11:23:47 GMT
I don’t see why not. He is rancid. He’s a convicted criminal and a rapist. He should not have been allowed to stand. People have shown their values with him. Those words quoted should have been enough to never hear from him again. So basically simply not being Donald Trump is a good enough reason for you to vote someone? It's not unusual throughout life that most people are presented with two or more poor choices, the pragmatist chooses the least bad option An idealist is doomed to be disappointed and eventually begins to question his/herself, a cynic is a disappointed idealist like Ian. If you see no different outcomes between Trump and Harris, as the only choices on offer, fair enough. |
|
|
|
Post by Gawa on Nov 7, 2024 11:26:09 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by crouchpotato1 on Nov 7, 2024 11:55:03 GMT
Some grovelling got to be done 😂
|
|
|
|
Post by crouchpotato1 on Nov 7, 2024 12:02:34 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by crouchpotato1 on Nov 7, 2024 12:07:29 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by Huddysleftfoot on Nov 7, 2024 12:07:56 GMT
Did fat Nick ask the same question of the Tories when they were in power? |
|
|
|
Post by crouchpotato1 on Nov 7, 2024 12:14:41 GMT
Did fat Nick ask the same question of the Tories when they were in power? Not a clue but I’m sure you’ll find it if he did |
|
|
|
Post by Gawa on Nov 7, 2024 12:27:34 GMT
So basically simply not being Donald Trump is a good enough reason for you to vote someone? It's not unusual throughout life that most people are presented with two or more poor choices, the pragmatist chooses the least bad option An idealist is doomed to be disappointed and eventually begins to question his/herself, a cynic is a disappointed idealist like Ian. If you see no different outcomes between Trump and Harris, as the only choices on offer, fair enough. I fully understand and accept your argument but that doesn't by any means I think it is the right approach. I think there is a difference between being pragmatic and simply lowing our standards as each election passes simply through fear of keeping out a bogeyman. What your pragmatism delivers is managed decline and not actually any serious radical improvements. For me being pragmatic isn't about settling or staying still, it's about recognising the issues in todays society and pushing for changes to improve it. If we continually repeat this cycle of settling for the "lesser evil" on offer then we're simply accepting things as they are and not fighting for real change people want. I honestly don't think expecting a party and candidate to offer more than "not Trump" is being an idealist. If you never demand better then you'll only continue to get these poor options which serve the interests of oligarchs over constituents. Maybe some of us want to actually have a reason to vote for someone and a promise of an improvement to our lives rather than managed austerity. If that's not "realistic" to want better then what's the alternative - accept managed decline and the mindset that each generations lives are getting worse? Or where is the improvement coming from with your "lesser of two evils" pragmatic ideology. As socrates once wisely said, "I know that I know nothing". Those who think they “know best” often assume their political views are unassailable, and anyone questioning them is either uneducated or unrealistic. This arrogance can push others away, as the lack of humility stifles real dialogue. Instead of genuinely engaging with alternative viewpoints, such individuals can become condescending, which ultimately limits both their influence and their personal growth. So yes my "idealist" approach in your mind may mean I'm doomed to disappointment but at least there is still a glimmer of hope there. With the "lesser of two evils" approach the only guarantee is evil and by evidence of the last 20 years managed decline too. How that also doesn't lead to being doomed with disappointment I don't know, but I know there certainly isn't any hope aside from the hope of keeping out a bogeyman people are conditioned to fear on either side.* * Actually with respect and to be fair it feels some Trump supporters do have hope and they voted for someone who resonated with them more so than democrat voters who were mostly motivated to vote against Trump. And who knows maybe he will deliver for those people. If you consider yourself on the left though all you have to do is look at Atlee, Foot, Smith, Blair, Milliband, Starmer to recognise the trajectory things have and are heading. If the frog is in the boiling water long enough they eventually become desensitised to the increase in temperature and the damage what it is doing to them. Maybe because you're older than me you've became desensitised to the managed decline in quality of candidate, integrity and policy of labour leaders over the last number of decades. But if you consider yourself left wing and see this as the pragmatic approach... what is the end game? Frogs for lunch? |
|
|
|
Post by wannabee on Nov 7, 2024 14:58:55 GMT
It's not unusual throughout life that most people are presented with two or more poor choices, the pragmatist chooses the least bad option An idealist is doomed to be disappointed and eventually begins to question his/herself, a cynic is a disappointed idealist like Ian. If you see no different outcomes between Trump and Harris, as the only choices on offer, fair enough. I fully understand and accept your argument but that doesn't by any means I think it is the right approach. I think there is a difference between being pragmatic and simply lowing our standards as each election passes simply through fear of keeping out a bogeyman. What your pragmatism delivers is managed decline and not actually any serious radical improvements. For me being pragmatic isn't about settling or staying still, it's about recognising the issues in todays society and pushing for changes to improve it. If we continually repeat this cycle of settling for the "lesser evil" on offer then we're simply accepting things as they are and not fighting for real change people want. I honestly don't think expecting a party and candidate to offer more than "not Trump" is being an idealist. If you never demand better then you'll only continue to get these poor options which serve the interests of oligarchs over constituents. Maybe some of us want to actually have a reason to vote for someone and a promise of an improvement to our lives rather than managed austerity. If that's not "realistic" to want better then what's the alternative - accept managed decline and the mindset that each generations lives are getting worse? Or where is the improvement coming from with your "lesser of two evils" pragmatic ideology. As socrates once wisely said, "I know that I know nothing". Those who think they “know best” often assume their political views are unassailable, and anyone questioning them is either uneducated or unrealistic. This arrogance can push others away, as the lack of humility stifles real dialogue. Instead of genuinely engaging with alternative viewpoints, such individuals can become condescending, which ultimately limits both their influence and their personal growth. So yes my "idealist" approach in your mind may mean I'm doomed to disappointment but at least there is still a glimmer of hope there. With the "lesser of two evils" approach the only guarantee is evil and by evidence of the last 20 years managed decline too. How that also doesn't lead to being doomed with disappointment I don't know, but I know there certainly isn't any hope aside from the hope of keeping out a bogeyman people are conditioned to fear on either side.* * Actually with respect and to be fair it feels some Trump supporters do have hope and they voted for someone who resonated with them more so than democrat voters who were mostly motivated to vote against Trump. And who knows maybe he will deliver for those people. If you consider yourself on the left though all you have to do is look at Atlee, Foot, Smith, Blair, Milliband, Starmer to recognise the trajectory things have and are heading. If the frog is in the boiling water long enough they eventually become desensitised to the increase in temperature and the damage what it is doing to them. Maybe because you're older than me you've became desensitised to the managed decline in quality of candidate, integrity and policy of labour leaders over the last number of decades. But if you consider yourself left wing and see this as the pragmatic approach... what is the end game? Frogs for lunch? There is no evidence that Socrates ever said "I know that I know nothing" but it is attributed to him by Plato in his Dialogues. Nevertheless my interpretation of the phrase is an acknowledgement that everything we believe is simply an opinion based on our subjective perception of life. You are doing exactly what you accuse others of by "othering" any ideas that are contrary to yours because you "know best". This is the exact opposite of the meaning of the phrase which encourages an open mind because "we don't know what we don't know" In any case that philosophical but to the practical In any Election there are choices, you may not like the choices, but those are the choices. If it bothers you so much become an activist rather than complaining of how things are. Of course the system is rigged because money and power give people influence to rig the system as it has since time immemorial "God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference". - Reinhold Niebuhr Pragmatism doesn't mean a lowering of standards, far from it. A few hundred years ago you and I would likely be serfs on some landlords land with a load of kids half dying before the age of 5. 250 years ago the Industrial Revolution brought great wealth to a few not the many, appalling living conditions and heralded the demise of the Planet we see today. In barely 100 years Women can vote, Workers can organize in Unions, life expectancy has increased hugely through social change and Medical advancement and many others. Societies evolve maybe too slowly for your liking but if the pace of the next 100 years is like the last and most likely accelerated it will be unrecognizable to today. Communication like most technology is both a gift and a source of tension. When the serfs went about their daily lives they had no idea what was happening in the next village never mind another Continent if they were even aware of such places. Now areas of the World see instantly on their TVs or Mobile Phones the difference in affluence and want a share. Technology as I say is a double edged sword. The two most likely advancements in the next 20/30 years will like be Green Technology and AI. Both will bring great Wealth to those that control it but will benefit the ordinary person by raising their quality and standard of life. It will almost certainly increase inequality of Wealth but the General Standard will be higher, is this enough? |
|
|
|
Post by Paul Spencer on Nov 7, 2024 15:10:24 GMT
So basically simply not being Donald Trump is a good enough reason for you to vote someone? It's not unusual throughout life that most people are presented with two or more poor choices, the pragmatist chooses the least bad option An idealist is doomed to be disappointed and eventually begins to question his/herself, a cynic is a disappointed idealist like Ian. If you see no different outcomes between Trump and Harris, as the only choices on offer, fair enough. Exactly. 73% of Democrat voters want an arms embargo with Israel, 54% of Democrat voters believe that Israel is committing genocide in Palestine. Many said they couldn't vote for the party supporting the bloodshed and elected to stay at home instead rather than vote at all. Then 15,000,000 Democrat voters "mysteriously" disappeared this time and as a result, Trump had a walk in the park. It's not rocket science but I think their decision was extremely misguided. |
|
|
|
Post by oggyoggy on Nov 7, 2024 15:15:26 GMT
due to fptp Labour were quite lucky to get the huge majority of MP's they had Starmer ran on Tory bad labour better - not much policy and his share of the vote was less than tory reform combined People prefer to hear what you stand for as opposed to just being anti opponent Trump won by being negative and stoking fears. He didn’t win by saying what he would do (other than ridiculous claims like ending the war in Ukraine in 24 hours). |
|
|
|
Post by salopstick on Nov 7, 2024 15:16:03 GMT
due to fptp Labour were quite lucky to get the huge majority of MP's they had Starmer ran on Tory bad labour better - not much policy and his share of the vote was less than tory reform combined People prefer to hear what you stand for as opposed to just being anti opponent Trump won by being negative and stoking fears. He didn’t win by saying what he would do (other than ridiculous claims like ending the war in Ukraine in 24 hours). behave |
|
|
|
Post by oggyoggy on Nov 7, 2024 15:19:40 GMT
They haven’t reported anything positive about the benefits of slavery. It is all anti-slavery propaganda. Presumably you think that is wrong too? |
|
|
|
Post by oggyoggy on Nov 7, 2024 15:20:45 GMT
Trump won by being negative and stoking fears. He didn’t win by saying what he would do (other than ridiculous claims like ending the war in Ukraine in 24 hours). behave Obviously you have never heard him speak then! I hope you are protecting your pets from hungry immigrants, and, watch out cows, the extreme far left communist Kamala Harris is going to kill you! |
|
|
|
Post by Paul Spencer on Nov 7, 2024 15:31:27 GMT
Trump won by being negative and stoking fears. He didn’t win by saying what he would do (other than ridiculous claims like ending the war in Ukraine in 24 hours). behave He said "we can fix every single problem our country faces". Well fuck me sideways, that's a pretty enticing policy, where do I place my mark? 🤦♂️ |
|
|
|
Post by adri2008 on Nov 7, 2024 15:38:49 GMT
Disgruntled voters + a non-entity candidate offering little different = people looking elsewhere. Many will have simply turned a blind eye to Trump's unpleasant character.
|
|
|
|
Post by salopstick on Nov 7, 2024 15:43:30 GMT
Obviously you have never heard him speak then! I hope you are protecting your pets from hungry immigrants, and, watch out cows, the extreme far left communist Kamala Harris is going to kill you! i refer you Adr post above |
|
|
|
Post by oggyoggy on Nov 7, 2024 15:47:48 GMT
Obviously you have never heard him speak then! I hope you are protecting your pets from hungry immigrants, and, watch out cows, the extreme far left communist Kamala Harris is going to kill you! i refer you Adr post above Yes, Trump won by being the anti-Kamala/Biden candidate. Kamala lost in her campaign which was being the anti-Trump candidate. |
|
|
|
Post by crouchpotato1 on Nov 7, 2024 16:22:32 GMT
They haven’t reported anything positive about the benefits of slavery. It is all anti-slavery propaganda. Presumably you think that is wrong too? WTF are you on about🤷♂️ |
|
|
|
Post by salopstick on Nov 7, 2024 16:29:34 GMT
They haven’t reported anything positive about the benefits of slavery. It is all anti-slavery propaganda. Presumably you think that is wrong too? WTF are you on about🤷♂️ i knew that was oi oi oi before i saw his quote  |
|
|
|
Post by oggyoggy on Nov 7, 2024 16:43:24 GMT
They haven’t reported anything positive about the benefits of slavery. It is all anti-slavery propaganda. Presumably you think that is wrong too? WTF are you on about🤷♂️ You shared a post about the BBC not being balanced. I was checking whether your view on BBC balance applies in all circumstances and your response suggests to me that you want the BBC to be balanced only when it suits your opinion. |
|
|
|
Post by crouchpotato1 on Nov 7, 2024 16:47:22 GMT
You shared a post about the BBC not being balanced. I was checking whether your view on BBC balance applies in all circumstances and your response suggests to me that you want the BBC to be balanced only when it suits your opinion. Strange bod |
|
|
|
Post by Gabrielzakuaniandjuliet on Nov 7, 2024 16:59:14 GMT
I've never seen Joe Biden look so happy 😂😂 legend
|
|
|
|
Post by oggyoggy on Nov 7, 2024 17:04:33 GMT
You shared a post about the BBC not being balanced. I was checking whether your view on BBC balance applies in all circumstances and your response suggests to me that you want the BBC to be balanced only when it suits your opinion. Strange bod Not the sharpest are you? |
|
|
|
Post by iancransonsknees on Nov 7, 2024 17:56:46 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by Rednwhitenblue on Nov 7, 2024 18:07:51 GMT
It's almost like you don't really think they're all the same after all 🤣
|
|
|
|
Post by emretezzy on Nov 7, 2024 18:14:18 GMT
i refer you Adr post above Yes, Trump won by being the anti-Kamala/Biden candidate. Kamala lost in her campaign which was being the anti-Trump candidate. 72 million votes by being anti Kamala.... You might not like him but ALOT of people clearly do. |
|
