|
Post by partickpotter on Nov 27, 2015 10:22:25 GMT
A leader can't be self indulgent. He has to reflect the broader opinion of the people he represents - and importantly hopes to represent. I remember Len McCluskey talking about how he sacrificed his personal principles to reflect the broader opinion of his union. Because that is what a leader has to do. Nothing to do with what society we have become. Just a question of what it takes to be a leader. But he IS reflecting the people he represents...the overwhelming majority of party members who voted him in. He does not share the views of some right wing members of the PLP. That's the sort of civil war language Corbyn has brought to the Labour Party. As to who he represents - he has a massive mandate from the people who voted for him. No doubt. But he needs to be wary of that for so many reasons. It isn't carte blanche to do what he wants to do. He has to build a party that can govern - and he's making that more and more unlikely. Check out what is going on in Oldham just now - Labour's traditional working class vote is flocking to UKIP. Their main hope for victory is the large Asian population there turn out in numbers. I find that very worrying - and a direct consequence if the collapse of Labour under the dreadful leadership of Corbyn.
|
|
|
Post by underdog on Nov 27, 2015 10:22:25 GMT
Nope...it's been downward since 1979 IMO....you misunderstood my point I think. Read James Goldsmiths 'The Trap'...although he was a tory he realised the threat to the British standards of living posed by globalisation. The only people that benefit are the rich.
|
|
|
Post by partickpotter on Nov 27, 2015 10:23:46 GMT
No, the real question is we won’t beat IS without a coalition of ground troops, so how many more people need to die by beheadings, suicide bombs or AK47 gunfire before we wake up, go in, and rid the world of IS forever. HOW MANY PEOPLE. As the thread is basically about Corbyn's refusal to support air strikes then I'm afraid it is the question. Who on here supports bombing Syria? No - this thread is about the Labour Party. Your question is a very good one though - worth a separate thread I think.
|
|
|
Post by desman2 on Nov 27, 2015 10:23:27 GMT
Nope...it's been downward since 1979 IMO....you misunderstood my point I think. Read James Goldsmiths 'The Trap'...although he was a tory he realised the threat to the British standards of living posed by globalisation. The only people that benefit are the rich. Bang on the money
|
|
|
Post by underdog on Nov 27, 2015 10:26:28 GMT
Good...would hate to be mistaken for new labour or a tory...fucking disgrace. Was listening to a guy on the radio the other day...geologist....we have hundreds of years of coal under the ground...imagine of we had kept the pits open and developed clean burn technology...Wed be energy self sufficient and the Chinese wouldn't be building our power stations...sold down the river by the upper classes..makes me blood boil. Don't believe a word any tory says ever.
|
|
|
Post by partickpotter on Nov 27, 2015 10:28:28 GMT
Nope...it's been downward since 1979 IMO....you misunderstood my point I think. Read James Goldsmiths 'The Trap'...although he was a tory he realised the threat to the British standards of living posed by globalisation. The only people that benefit are the rich. Manufacturing in this country was going downhill well before 1979.
|
|
|
Post by underdog on Nov 27, 2015 10:29:51 GMT
Yes mate...but that bitch and Joseph delivered the coup de grace.
|
|
|
Post by crapslinger on Nov 27, 2015 10:32:12 GMT
The Marx(ist) brothers what a fucking joke, Chairman Mao's little red book they are really fucked 1970's policies in 2015 , not working very well is it what a fucking balls up and some on here were revelling when Corbyn was voted as leader of the Labour party, how friggin stupid must they feel now I almost feel sorry for them............................................................................................................................................................NOT great decision comrades If you're so anti Maoism can you please explain why Osborne has signed deals to build nuclear power stations with the Chinese? Do you understand irony at all? Why would I attempt to explain the actions of George Osbourne ?, the man is as weak as piss as he has shown this week, I did not and never have voted Conservative in my life !, however Corbyn and his side kick are not the right people to be standing as opposition and you know it as well as the majority of the nation do, we needed a strong resolute opposition that is in touch with the majority of the electorate not just yoghurt knitting, tank top sandal wearing tree huggers he has attracted, how many people think he will ever be PM of this country ?
|
|
|
Post by underdog on Nov 27, 2015 11:08:32 GMT
If you're so anti Maoism can you please explain why Osborne has signed deals to build nuclear power stations with the Chinese? Do you understand irony at all? Why would I attempt to explain the actions of George Osbourne ?, the man is as weak as piss as he has shown this week, I did not and never have voted Conservative in my life !, however Corbyn and his side kick are not the right people to be standing as opposition and you know it as well as the majority of the nation do, we needed a strong resolute opposition that is in touch with the majority of the electorate not just yoghurt knitting, tank top sandal wearing tree huggers he has attracted, how many people think he will ever be PM of this country ? And what views do you think the majority hold.
|
|
|
Post by devondumpling on Nov 27, 2015 11:11:17 GMT
Hard to see any way forward for Labour following the current fiasco over Syria. What a fucking mess. He's representing the vast majority of his parties view. A very interesting take on it emphasising what an opportunistic turd Cameron is. He is no more committed to a joined up foreign policy than he is trade unions. Corbyn's position is far more consistent, realistic and thoughtful. new.spectator.co.uk/2015/11/jeremy-corbyn-is-more-sensible-about-syria-than-david-cameron/
|
|
|
Post by Huddysleftfoot on Nov 27, 2015 11:43:11 GMT
|
|
|
Post by partickpotter on Nov 27, 2015 12:15:11 GMT
Good job Labour presented a more professional face at Question Time on Thursday evening pouring oil over the troubled waters of the turbulent week. Well, in. Another world it would have been. In the world of Labour it was yet another opportunity to dig that hole ever deeper. When you need a hero, step forward Red Ken... The above taken from this Huffington post article, 'BBC Question Time': Ken Livingstone Provokes Labour Fury With 7/7 Attacks Outburst. Plenty of very angry tweets from Labour MPs are featured. Hard to draw any other conclusion about Labour from this week's debacles than they are utterly fucked.
|
|
|
Post by nicholasjalcock on Nov 27, 2015 12:30:32 GMT
Nope...it's been downward since 1979 IMO....you misunderstood my point I think. Read James Goldsmiths 'The Trap'...although he was a tory he realised the threat to the British standards of living posed by globalisation. The only people that benefit are the rich. Manufacturing in this country was going downhill well before 1979. And which party did the owners of British industry support and finance? Yes, the Tory Party!
|
|
|
Post by partickpotter on Nov 27, 2015 12:34:46 GMT
Manufacturing in this country was going downhill well before 1979. And which party did the owners of British industry support and finance? Yes, the Tory Party! Correct. Help me out though - your point is, in regards to when manufacturing in Britain started to decline, is what?
|
|
|
Post by Rick Grimes on Nov 27, 2015 12:54:17 GMT
The Marx(ist) brothers what a fucking joke, Chairman Mao's little red book they are re ally fucked 1970's policies in 2015 , not working very well is it what a fucking balls up and some on here were revelling when Corbyn was voted as leader of the Labour party, how friggin stupid must they feel now I almost feel sorry for them............................................................................................................................................................NOT great decision comrades He was taking the piss out of Osborne with the book, not using it for inspiration ..... He was indeed but unfortunately people such as carpslayer don't understand this, which is exactly the reason he shouldn't have used it as a prop for a joke.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2015 12:59:40 GMT
Why is it people swallow the lies of the right wing press? What's wrong with sticking to your principles? Can you imagine the reaction if he'd changed his view on this? Exactly - and this is why Labour effectively signed a mass suicide pact when they elected him as leader. Corbyn puts his personal principles before power. Laudable, for sure, but not what is required of a leader who has other considerations. Like living in the real world. Corbyn is a principled back bench MP - which us where he should have stayed. I cannot quite believe what I have just read from a man who seems like he is at least half clued up on British politics. So you're saying you don't want Westminster to be filled with men of principle, who are honest and are not simply power hungry? What a better state our parliament would be if the majority of MPs put principle before power! You're basically surrendering to what has become the norm since Blair became leader of Labour in 1994, this bullshit popularity contest that makes a mockery of one of the oldest standing democracies in the world. Whether you are a fan of Corbyn's policies or not, what happened in the summer was nothing short of inspiring. It showed people are tired of all this careerist bollocks and Labour took a different route from the one it took in 94, by no means a suicide pact though. Sure enough, Corbyn has made mistakes since his election, it has been 12 weeks though. He has not wavered on his principles and for that I am pleased. Fuck this 'real world' you and many others speak of. 'Be the change you want to see in the world.' - Ghandi
|
|
|
Post by partickpotter on Nov 27, 2015 13:10:10 GMT
Exactly - and this is why Labour effectively signed a mass suicide pact when they elected him as leader. Corbyn puts his personal principles before power. Laudable, for sure, but not what is required of a leader who has other considerations. Like living in the real world. Corbyn is a principled back bench MP - which us where he should have stayed. I cannot quite believe what I have just read from a man who seems like he is at least half clued up on British politics. So you're saying you don't want Westminster to be filled with men of principle, who are honest and are not simply power hungry? What a better state our parliament would be if the majority of MPs put principle before power! You're basically surrendering to what has become the norm since Blair became leader of Labour in 1994, this bullshit popularity contest that makes a mockery of one of the oldest standing democracies in the world. Whether you are a fan of Corbyn's policies or not, what happened in the summer was nothing short of inspiring. It showed people are tired of all this careerist bollocks and Labour took a different route from the one it took in 94, by no means a suicide pact though. Sure enough, Corbyn has made mistakes since his election, it has been 12 weeks though. He has not wavered on his principles and for that I am pleased. Fuck this 'real world' you and many others speak of. 'Be the change you want to see in the world.' - Ghandi I'm talking about leadership - and what a leader needs to be and do. As it happens I love the idea of troublesome principled backbenchers who make life uncomfortable not just for their opponents but also for their own party leaders. They also, generally, play a vital role in the select committees that are the vital, unseen, organs of Westminster. But, the front bench requires different thinking and actions. Compromise, sacrifice etc are essential. In other words Corbyn the principled back bencher is one thing, Corbyn the principled leader another. In fact, it is a disaster as we are currently seeing.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2015 13:19:52 GMT
I cannot quite believe what I have just read from a man who seems like he is at least half clued up on British politics. So you're saying you don't want Westminster to be filled with men of principle, who are honest and are not simply power hungry? What a better state our parliament would be if the majority of MPs put principle before power! You're basically surrendering to what has become the norm since Blair became leader of Labour in 1994, this bullshit popularity contest that makes a mockery of one of the oldest standing democracies in the world. Whether you are a fan of Corbyn's policies or not, what happened in the summer was nothing short of inspiring. It showed people are tired of all this careerist bollocks and Labour took a different route from the one it took in 94, by no means a suicide pact though. Sure enough, Corbyn has made mistakes since his election, it has been 12 weeks though. He has not wavered on his principles and for that I am pleased. Fuck this 'real world' you and many others speak of. 'Be the change you want to see in the world.' - Ghandi I'm talking about leadership - and what a leader needs to be and do. As it happens I love the idea of troublesome principled backbenchers who make life uncomfortable not just for their opponents but also for their own party leaders. They also, generally, play a vital role in the select committees that are the vital, unseen, organs of Westminster. But, the front bench requires different thinking and actions. Compromise, sacrifice etc are essential. In other words Corbyn the principled back bencher is one thing, Corbyn the principled leader another. In fact, it is a disaster as we are currently seeing. Hang on, so what is he supposed to do? Say okay, let's go to war in Syria? There is no compromise on the issue, it's a complete and utter no go! Getting involved in this war in itself is sheer stupidity but maybe Corbyn has learned his lessons from the disaster that one of his predecessors oversaw in a similar area. As I have said on this thread before, as soon as the likes of our local MP fuck off out of the party the better. They are the real cancer of Labour.
|
|
|
Post by partickpotter on Nov 27, 2015 13:30:07 GMT
I'm talking about leadership - and what a leader needs to be and do. As it happens I love the idea of troublesome principled backbenchers who make life uncomfortable not just for their opponents but also for their own party leaders. They also, generally, play a vital role in the select committees that are the vital, unseen, organs of Westminster. But, the front bench requires different thinking and actions. Compromise, sacrifice etc are essential. In other words Corbyn the principled back bencher is one thing, Corbyn the principled leader another. In fact, it is a disaster as we are currently seeing. Hang on, so what is he supposed to do? Say okay, let's go to war in Syria? There is no compromise on the issue, it's a complete and utter no go! Getting involved in this war in itself is sheer stupidity but maybe Corbyn has learned his lessons from the disaster that one of his predecessors oversaw in a similar area. As I have said on this thread before, as soon as the likes of our local MP fuck off out of the party the better. They are the real cancer of Labour. He should never have been elected leader. Issues like this were always going to occur and the outcome absolutely predictable. The only thing he can do is allow a free vote, but he realises that on an issue as important as this a collective cabinet decision is needed. So he is trying to force it - and he hopes that pressure from momentum will force his cabinet to back him. Who knows he may be right. We'll find out on that next week. As of today - it has fiasco written all over it. Of course, if you're a follower of Corbyn, all of this is fine. Because, if I was one (although clearly I am not!), I'd be looking for a night of the long knives to purge the party of the recalcitrant New Labourites who are refusing to bend the knee to the wishes of the people who voted Corbyn in. And this weekend is when the knives should fall.
|
|
|
Post by manmarking on Nov 27, 2015 13:36:21 GMT
Exactly - and this is why Labour effectively signed a mass suicide pact when they elected him as leader. Corbyn puts his personal principles before power. Laudable, for sure, but not what is required of a leader who has other considerations. Like living in the real world. Corbyn is a principled back bench MP - which us where he should have stayed. I cannot quite believe what I have just read from a man who seems like he is at least half clued up on British politics. So you're saying you don't want Westminster to be filled with men of principle, who are honest and are not simply power hungry? What a better state our parliament would be if the majority of MPs put principle before power! You're basically surrendering to what has become the norm since Blair became leader of Labour in 1994, this bullshit popularity contest that makes a mockery of one of the oldest standing democracies in the world. Whether you are a fan of Corbyn's policies or not, what happened in the summer was nothing short of inspiring. It showed people are tired of all this careerist bollocks and Labour took a different route from the one it took in 94, by no means a suicide pact though. Sure enough, Corbyn has made mistakes since his election, it has been 12 weeks though. He has not wavered on his principles and for that I am pleased. Fuck this 'real world' you and many others speak of. 'Be the change you want to see in the world.' - Ghandi Absolutely excellent post mate. The electorate has been browbeaten into thinking that principles are somehow stupid, naive and selfish. And that dreams have no place in politics. Depressing state of affairs that just serves to deliver more to fewer. Give me an honest principled person over a slick careerist any day.
|
|
|
Post by desman2 on Nov 27, 2015 13:39:57 GMT
I cannot quite believe what I have just read from a man who seems like he is at least half clued up on British politics. So you're saying you don't want Westminster to be filled with men of principle, who are honest and are not simply power hungry? What a better state our parliament would be if the majority of MPs put principle before power! You're basically surrendering to what has become the norm since Blair became leader of Labour in 1994, this bullshit popularity contest that makes a mockery of one of the oldest standing democracies in the world. Whether you are a fan of Corbyn's policies or not, what happened in the summer was nothing short of inspiring. It showed people are tired of all this careerist bollocks and Labour took a different route from the one it took in 94, by no means a suicide pact though. Sure enough, Corbyn has made mistakes since his election, it has been 12 weeks though. He has not wavered on his principles and for that I am pleased. Fuck this 'real world' you and many others speak of. 'Be the change you want to see in the world.' - Ghandi Absolutely excellent post mate. The electorate has been browbeaten into thinking that principles are somehow stupid, naive and selfish. And that dreams have no place in politics. Depressing state of affairs that just serves to deliver more to fewer. Give me an honest principled person over a slick careerist any day. Does that include Farage who whether liked or not has put his cards on the table also.
|
|
|
Post by manmarking on Nov 27, 2015 13:46:56 GMT
Absolutely excellent post mate. The electorate has been browbeaten into thinking that principles are somehow stupid, naive and selfish. And that dreams have no place in politics. Depressing state of affairs that just serves to deliver more to fewer. Give me an honest principled person over a slick careerist any day. Does that include Farage who whether liked or not has put his cards on the table also. Yes absolutely mate. On balance I agree with Corbyn on more things (I agree with Nige on a fair bit) but Farage set his stall out donkey's years ago and has broadly stuck to a principled stance. I've far more respect for that than Cameron, Osborne, Blair, Brown and all the other New Labour/Compassionate Conservative cynics. I'd much rather a leader I can trust to be true to themselves than one who just says what they think I want to hear.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2015 13:52:06 GMT
Hang on, so what is he supposed to do? Say okay, let's go to war in Syria? There is no compromise on the issue, it's a complete and utter no go! Getting involved in this war in itself is sheer stupidity but maybe Corbyn has learned his lessons from the disaster that one of his predecessors oversaw in a similar area. As I have said on this thread before, as soon as the likes of our local MP fuck off out of the party the better. They are the real cancer of Labour. He should never have been elected leader. Issues like this were always going to occur and the outcome absolutely predictable. The only thing he can do is allow a free vote, but he realises that on an issue as important as this a collective cabinet decision is needed. So he is trying to force it - and he hopes that pressure from momentum will force his cabinet to back him. Who knows he may be right. We'll find out on that next week. As of today - it has fiasco written all over it. Of course, if you're a follower of Corbyn, all of this is fine. Because, if I was one (although clearly I am not!), I'd be looking for a night of the long knives to purge the party of the recalcitrant New Labourites who are refusing to bend the knee to the wishes of the people who voted Corbyn in. And this weekend is when the knives should fall. How can you say he should never been elected leader under the circumstances he was? It was an entirely democratic and inspiring process. New Labourites, as you call them, are a parasite that have no place in the party. Labour is a left leaning party and it should remain that, it serves no purpose as an opposition party in the centre - the Liberals were there long before Labour even existed.
|
|
|
Post by RichieBarkerOut! on Nov 27, 2015 14:03:55 GMT
I wish Harry was here to see the shot of Jeremy's former lover, Diane Abbot, used in this peace... Bet you would, Harry...Edit: I just remembered that it was Carps that has the hots for Diane, not Harry.
|
|
|
Post by partickpotter on Nov 27, 2015 14:11:23 GMT
He should never have been elected leader. Issues like this were always going to occur and the outcome absolutely predictable. The only thing he can do is allow a free vote, but he realises that on an issue as important as this a collective cabinet decision is needed. So he is trying to force it - and he hopes that pressure from momentum will force his cabinet to back him. Who knows he may be right. We'll find out on that next week. As of today - it has fiasco written all over it. Of course, if you're a follower of Corbyn, all of this is fine. Because, if I was one (although clearly I am not!), I'd be looking for a night of the long knives to purge the party of the recalcitrant New Labourites who are refusing to bend the knee to the wishes of the people who voted Corbyn in. And this weekend is when the knives should fall. How can you say he should never been elected leader under the circumstances he was? It was an entirely democratic and inspiring process. New Labourites, as you call them, are a parasite that have no place in the party. Labour is a left leaning party and it should remain that, it serves no purpose as an opposition party in the centre - the Liberals were there long before Labour even existed. He should never have been elected if you want Labour to win a general election. On the other hand if winning an election is not important - then Corbyn is your man.
|
|
|
Post by boothenboy75 on Nov 27, 2015 14:14:13 GMT
Why is it people swallow the lies of the right wing press? What's wrong with sticking to your principles? Can you imagine the reaction if he'd changed his view on this? Seeing has he's changed his view on the Privy Council, singing the national anthem, wearing poppies then I doubt anyone would notice. :)
|
|
|
Post by crapslinger on Nov 27, 2015 14:42:42 GMT
I wish Harry was here to see the shot of Jeremy's former lover, Diane Abbot, used in this peace... Bet you would, Harry...Edit: I just remembered that it was Carps that has the hots for Diane, not Harry. on a realist note did Corbyn actually dip his wick in that fuckin bigoted ugly bitch ?, was he married at the time if true ?, man of principal ? this is getting better by the day.
|
|
|
Post by crapslinger on Nov 27, 2015 14:43:44 GMT
Why is it people swallow the lies of the right wing press? What's wrong with sticking to your principles? Can you imagine the reaction if he'd changed his view on this? Seeing has he's changed his view on the Privy Council, singing the national anthem, wearing poppies then I doubt anyone would notice. He shagged Diane Abbott
|
|
|
Post by bringmesunshine on Nov 27, 2015 14:47:48 GMT
Why is it people swallow the lies of the right wing press? What's wrong with sticking to your principles? Can you imagine the reaction if he'd changed his view on this? Seeing has he's changed his view on the Privy Council, singing the national anthem, wearing poppies then I doubt anyone would notice. If you think about it they started in the centre ground with Tony, moved slightly left with Gordon, then slightly further left with, Ed then a big lurch even further left with Jeremy, can you imagine where they will end up next when they finally realise that Corbin is completely unelectable.
|
|
|
Post by crapslinger on Nov 27, 2015 14:50:10 GMT
Seeing has he's changed his view on the Privy Council, singing the national anthem, wearing poppies then I doubt anyone would notice. If you think about it they started in the centre ground with Tony, moved slightly left with Gordon, then slightly further left with, Ed then a big lurch even further left with Jeremy, can you imagine where they will end up next when they finally realise that Corbin is completely unelectable. Maybe they will follow their historical normal voters and end up with UKIP, the giant leap that millions of us have already undertaken.
|
|