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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Jun 9, 2015 22:01:28 GMT
Huddy , I think that he has got them Not sure he can count that far to be honest, it really is no surprise that he is an ex school teacher, the last thing we need is a teacher preaching left wing propaganda to impressionable young adults probably best for all concerned that he relinquished his post Careful Carpy....bit close to the wind that one. Asserting I preached "left wing propaganda to impressionable young adults" is a lie and therefore libelous. My ownership of you over your dreadful Maths must have really hurt eh?
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Post by harryburrows on Jun 10, 2015 4:48:32 GMT
How so ? Just leave the agenda alone if possible Pay the debt off by growing the economy and increasing tax revenues. I've posted the economic argument for this on the Scottish Independance thread but I'm not clever enough to work out how to post a link. Make of that what you will... No agenda here. Just reason. Aaahhh that old chestnut , it's just labour speak for do fuck all and hope for the best
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Post by harryburrows on Jun 10, 2015 5:06:23 GMT
Pay the debt off by growing the economy and increasing tax revenues. I've posted the economic argument for this on the Scottish Independance thread but I'm not clever enough to work out how to post a link. Make of that what you will... No agenda here. Just reason. And by aggressive action on corporate tax avoidance too. I quite agree
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 10, 2015 6:48:43 GMT
Back to the original question.Is it therefore true to say that a true socialist, Corbyn, will not be chosen because, amongst other things, he would be unelectable and the other candidates are struggling to find a pitch that is 'left of centre' , but not too left? They want to act on behalf of ' the ordinary person' and 'the Working man' and 'the oppressed and vulnerable 'and' the aspirational' but have no major difference to offer (perhaps other than 'less austerity', which I guess would make a significant difference to many, but would be criticised by some as seeming to be economically unsound, and therefore unelectable). Still suffering from identity crisis and difficulty sticking to its principles since Blair? I don't say this with any glee , by the way.
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Post by Skankmonkey on Jun 10, 2015 8:50:19 GMT
Pay the debt off by growing the economy and increasing tax revenues. I've posted the economic argument for this on the Scottish Independance thread but I'm not clever enough to work out how to post a link. Make of that what you will... No agenda here. Just reason. Aaahhh that old chestnut , it's just labour speak for do fuck all and hope for the best No, it's a perfectly reasonable and politically neutral economic case about the choices we could make as a nation. I'm not interested in propaganda. Thanks for your response though. It can't have taken you long to come up with. Good job really, thinking is such hard work eh?
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Post by wizzardofdribble on Jun 10, 2015 9:10:22 GMT
Anybody on the Left with a powerful message will be destroyed & vilified by the (mainly) Right Wing press.
Although some 'Left Wing' policies are quite popular with the electorate..NHS, Education, Transport, Redistribution...on the whole 'Left' is a dirty word to some.
But when I look at the current Labour Leadership Campaign I despair. Listening to people criticising Ed Milliband & Labours Election Campaign as though they weren't even part of it. What terrible hypocrites.
When I hear these people talking about public spending cuts, welfare reform, immigration and Anti European rhetoric I just think Why not just join the Conservative Party.
Labour need to offer the electorate something different. How about massive widescale banking reform? An end to off shore tax havens that diddle the UK out of billions of pounds a year. Renationalisation of Gas Electricity & Water and Railways. National conscription of 12 months for all 18 year olds. And the ritual stoning of Arsene Wenger.
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Post by harryburrows on Jun 10, 2015 10:01:14 GMT
Aaahhh that old chestnut , it's just labour speak for do fuck all and hope for the best No, it's a perfectly reasonable and politically neutral economic case about the choices we could make as a nation. I'm not interested in propaganda. Thanks for your response though. It can't have taken you long to come up with. Good job really, thinking is such hard work eh? I could say the same about your comment of let economic growth pay for our fiscal deficit and pay off the 1.5 TRILLION national debt . Naive to say the least
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Post by Skankmonkey on Jun 10, 2015 10:32:27 GMT
No, it's a perfectly reasonable and politically neutral economic case about the choices we could make as a nation. I'm not interested in propaganda. Thanks for your response though. It can't have taken you long to come up with. Good job really, thinking is such hard work eh? I could say the same about your comment of let economic growth pay for our fiscal deficit and pay off the 1.5 TRILLION national debt . Naive to say the least We will agree to differ then Harry, if that's ok. My response about thinking was ruder than I intended. I'm just killing time until the footie starts up again after all. There is a good economic argument against the case I put foward. It involves the reduced effectiveness of demand management in open economies and theories about the "crowding out" of private investment by goverment spending. I'm going to get fed up pretty quickly if I start putting the counter arguments as well though. Can I just leave you with this: If you had a debt you couldn't repay. You could, on the one hand, sell your kids into slavery to pay it off. Or stop eating for 5 days out of the 7. Or you could borrow a little more to buy a car and work nights in the taxi business to pay your debt off. I know which I would choose.
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Post by partickpotter on Jun 10, 2015 11:38:37 GMT
Anybody on the Left with a powerful message will be destroyed & vilified by the (mainly) Right Wing press. Although some 'Left Wing' policies are quite popular with the electorate..NHS, Education, Transport, Redistribution...on the whole 'Left' is a dirty word to some. But when I look at the current Labour Leadership Campaign I despair. Listening to people criticising Ed Milliband & Labours Election Campaign as though they weren't even part of it. What terrible hypocrites. When I hear these people talking about public spending cuts, welfare reform, immigration and Anti European rhetoric I just think Why not just join the Conservative Party. Labour need to offer the electorate something different. How about massive widescale banking reform? An end to off shore tax havens that diddle the UK out of billions of pounds a year. Renationalisation of Gas Electricity & Water and Railways. National conscription of 12 months for all 18 year olds. And the ritual stoning of Arsene Wenger. The problem is everyone is fighting over the middle ground so it's hard to look different! In fairness to Mr Ed he did try to offer some alternatives. Maybe just not different enough though. Plus his party was still tarnished with the 2008 banking crisis which they struggled to address. As Clinton said "it's the economy stupid". Elections are won and lost, in large part, on that one topic. on off shore tax havens, the world's biggest one is the City of London. It'd take a very brave government to do anything serious about that. They prefer to coin in those invisible earnings!
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Post by harryburrows on Jun 10, 2015 11:44:09 GMT
I could say the same about your comment of let economic growth pay for our fiscal deficit and pay off the 1.5 TRILLION national debt . Naive to say the least We will agree to differ then Harry, if that's ok. My response about thinking was ruder than I intended. I'm just killing time until the footie starts up again after all. There is a good economic argument against the case I put foward. It involves the reduced effectiveness of demand management in open economies and theories about the "crowding out" of private investment by goverment spending. I'm going to get fed up pretty quickly if I start putting the counter arguments as well though. Can I just leave you with this: If you had a debt you couldn't repay. You could, on the one hand, sell your kids into slavery to pay it off. Or stop eating for 5 days out of the 7. Or you could borrow a little more to buy a car and work nights in the taxi business to pay your debt off. I know which I would choose. Look mate it's not just about debt , and I get your logic believe it or not but mean time despite the chancellors best efforts our fiscal deficit is growing . Yes we need more growth , yes we need more exports , yes we need to increase Tax revenues . But we also need to take fiscal responsibility seriously . The cost of all our public services need to be controlled and targeted more effectively . Balancing our Budget is every governments responsibility
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Post by lordb on Jun 10, 2015 11:47:10 GMT
Anybody on the Left with a powerful message will be destroyed & vilified by the (mainly) Right Wing press. Although some 'Left Wing' policies are quite popular with the electorate..NHS, Education, Transport, Redistribution...on the whole 'Left' is a dirty word to some. But when I look at the current Labour Leadership Campaign I despair. Listening to people criticising Ed Milliband & Labours Election Campaign as though they weren't even part of it. What terrible hypocrites. When I hear these people talking about public spending cuts, welfare reform, immigration and Anti European rhetoric I just think Why not just join the Conservative Party. Labour need to offer the electorate something different. How about massive widescale banking reform? An end to off shore tax havens that diddle the UK out of billions of pounds a year. Renationalisation of Gas Electricity & Water and Railways. National conscription of 12 months for all 18 year olds. And the ritual stoning of Arsene Wenger. The problem is everyone is fighting over the middle ground so it's hard to look different! In fairness to Mr Ed he did try to offer some alternatives. Maybe just not different enough though. Plus his party was still tarnished with the 2008 banking crisis which they struggled to address. As Clinton said "it's the economy stupid". Elections are won and lost, in large part, on that one topic. on off shore tax havens, the world's biggest one is the City of London. It'd take a very brave government to do anything serious about that. They prefer to coin in those invisible earnings! It was George Bush (senior) that said (with no intended irony despite his term in office resulting in a downturn in the US economy) "it's the economy stupid". The world over left wing is equated with poor handling of the economy & right wing with safe handling regardless of reality & perception matching or not.
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Post by partickpotter on Jun 10, 2015 11:58:05 GMT
The problem is everyone is fighting over the middle ground so it's hard to look different! In fairness to Mr Ed he did try to offer some alternatives. Maybe just not different enough though. Plus his party was still tarnished with the 2008 banking crisis which they struggled to address. As Clinton said "it's the economy stupid". Elections are won and lost, in large part, on that one topic. on off shore tax havens, the world's biggest one is the City of London. It'd take a very brave government to do anything serious about that. They prefer to coin in those invisible earnings! It was George Bush (senior) that said (with no intended irony despite his term in office resulting in a downturn in the US economy) "it's the economy stupid". The world over left wing is equated with poor handling of the economy & right wing with safe handling regardless of reality & perception matching or not. Agree with last part of that. You could also put it crudely as the right focus on making money, the left on spending it. BTW - both are important! But it was definitely Clinton (or more correctly his campaign strategist James Carville) who came up with the "economy stupid" tag line for the 1992 presidential election against GB Snr. Clinton won of course!
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Post by Skankmonkey on Jun 10, 2015 12:09:47 GMT
We will agree to differ then Harry, if that's ok. My response about thinking was ruder than I intended. I'm just killing time until the footie starts up again after all. There is a good economic argument against the case I put foward. It involves the reduced effectiveness of demand management in open economies and theories about the "crowding out" of private investment by goverment spending. I'm going to get fed up pretty quickly if I start putting the counter arguments as well though. Can I just leave you with this: If you had a debt you couldn't repay. You could, on the one hand, sell your kids into slavery to pay it off. Or stop eating for 5 days out of the 7. Or you could borrow a little more to buy a car and work nights in the taxi business to pay your debt off. I know which I would choose. Look mate it's not just about debt , and I get your logic believe it or not but mean time despite the chancellors best efforts our fiscal deficit is growing . Yes we need more growth , yes we need more exports , yes we need to increase Tax revenues . But we also need to take fiscal responsibility seriously . The cost of all our public services need to be controlled and targeted more effectively . Balancing our Budget is every governments responsibility We can agree on fiscal responsibility then (who wouldn't?) and I agree on the responsibility to balance budgets with the added caveat "over the course of the economic cycle". After that it comes down to a subjective analysis, the choices made become political and are no longer purely reason based. I'm just an economics bore and I'm mainly interested in reasoning. Again, apologies for my earlier rudeness.
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Post by mermaidsal on Jun 10, 2015 12:45:57 GMT
Jeremy Corbyn is the only one who should have any business in the Labour party.
Suspect Burnham is most likely to win the race and the most likely to blow with the wind later in dodgiest ways.
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Post by Skankmonkey on Jun 10, 2015 12:49:58 GMT
Just to add to my taxi driving analogy, you could, with a little bit of luck, persuade your wife to take on a day shift as well.
In that way you could maintain or even increase your current day to day spending which Harry correctly identifies as a major part of the problem, being as it is currently in excess of your income.
It's about how hard you work your assets. <winky>
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Post by wizzardofdribble on Jun 10, 2015 12:58:53 GMT
Let's not forget that Labour have only been in office for about 30 years since they were formed at the start of the 20th Century. So if the country has 'Gone down the drain' we need to look elsewhere to see whose flushing the chain.
The reality of course (and anyone who has read their Economic History knows this) is that no major political party is any better at managing the economy than the other but the City of London are inextricably linked with the Conservative Party and Labour are terrified of them. You only had to look at the Stock Market the day after the election to appreciate this.
We all know who runs the country What baffles me is that so many people who have absolutely nothing to gain continue to vote for them.
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Post by Skankmonkey on Jun 10, 2015 14:43:35 GMT
Let's not forget that Labour have only been in office for about 30 years since they were formed at the start of the 20th Century. So if the country has 'Gone down the drain' we need to look elsewhere to see whose flushing the chain. The reality of course (and anyone who has read their Economic History knows this) is that no major political party is any better at managing the economy than the other but the City of London are inextricably linked with the Conservative Party and Labour are terrified of them. You only had to look at the Stock Market the day after the election to appreciate this. We all know who runs the country What baffles me is that so many people who have absolutely nothing to gain continue to vote for them. Anthony Barbers "Dash for Growth" in the seventies should drive these points home for anyone. Cretinous, no offence to cretins intended.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 10, 2015 15:44:06 GMT
Jeremy Corbyn is the only one who should have any business in the Labour party. Suspect Burnham is most likely to win the race and the most likely to blow with the wind later in dodgiest ways. Liz Kendall might surprise a few people
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Post by wizzardofdribble on Jun 10, 2015 18:39:56 GMT
Labour need to have a massive no holds barred debate before they choose a new leader and ask themselves what sort of Labour Party they want.
A genuinely radical party that would never get elected or Labour Lite or is there something in between?
Once they've established what they want to be they can elect a leader but not before....which is exactly what they are doing. And they all look much of a muchness to me.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2015 19:43:13 GMT
Jeremy Corbyn is the only one who should have any business in the Labour party. Suspect Burnham is most likely to win the race and the most likely to blow with the wind later in dodgiest ways. But would Corbyns appointment attract back to the party those 'floating voters' who have in a very short space of time voted for all shades of the political rainbow in gay abandonment of any real loyalty or compassion of socialism . I'm talking about people who change their vote on a whim . One minute 'Liberal'....the next ' Green' etc for no other reason than their mood at the time. Let's get one thing absolutely piggin straight here. Corbyn is so far left of the party , his local launderette is in the west of Moscow. His local restaurant maybe a culinary masterpiece of ethnic diversity and hence his popularity standing within the bowels of Islington is unblemished .A rich and colourful character whose roots eminate from Shropshire no less... This man is about as electable as is Boris Johnson to that of the Tories. If you want to stand absolutely no sodding chance of winning anything then put him in charge .! If his politics is what is most important to you .....then do eet.....a younger version of Michael Foot or Tony Benn . I fucking give up .....I am bereft of useful adjectives to describe my dismay for some people's lack of understanding of politics . THERES NO POINT BACKING CORBYN IF YOU WANT TO WIN ANYTHING. It's a big wide world out there chaps ....and if Labour want to effect change then you need to 'be in it , to win it' . We need centre or middle ground Labour MP's not Stalinists on a path of political self destruction . It needs to be a modern party for modern problems . Problems like falling education standards , lack of social housing , rising university fees , massive investment in jobs and ABOVE ALL ELSE recognition that the working downtrodden working classes want to see an end to mass migration .They want to see more better paid jobs for indigenous workers .they don't want to see 300,000 foreigners coming every bloody year . This was the policy that founded UKIP and its FOUR MILLION voters.... My comments by the way are not simply an opinion ...they are a FACT Please don't take my word for it ....read the broadsheets . They're all saying the same ....and They're ALL SPOT ON ! Mumf
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2015 20:33:47 GMT
No, it's a perfectly reasonable and politically neutral economic case about the choices we could make as a nation. I'm not interested in propaganda. Thanks for your response though. It can't have taken you long to come up with. Good job really, thinking is such hard work eh? I could say the same about your comment of let economic growth pay for our fiscal deficit and pay off the 1.5 TRILLION national debt . Naive to say the least Niave! Naive! You cant say that! Det. Inspector Mick Mills with be round to taser your taters to a crisp for using language like that.
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Post by kbillyh on Jun 10, 2015 20:43:35 GMT
Mumf and his facts.
Pisser.
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Jun 10, 2015 20:51:23 GMT
Mumf and his facts. Pisser. Hilarious in fact.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2015 20:52:07 GMT
Just to add to my taxi driving analogy, you could, with a little bit of luck, persuade your wife to take on a day shift as well. In that way you could maintain or even increase your current day to day spending which Harry correctly identifies as a major part of the problem, being as it is currently in excess of your income. It's about how hard you work your assets. <winky> Time to sell those old Beefheart albums Skanks. It's over let go.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2015 20:58:26 GMT
Let's not forget that Labour have only been in office for about 30 years since they were formed at the start of the 20th Century. So if the country has 'Gone down the drain' we need to look elsewhere to see whose flushing the chain. The reality of course (and anyone who has read their Economic History knows this) is that no major political party is any better at managing the economy than the other but the City of London are inextricably linked with the Conservative Party and Labour are terrified of them. You only had to look at the Stock Market the day after the election to appreciate this. We all know who runs the country What baffles me is that so many people who have absolutely nothing to gain continue to vote for them.Anyone that has ever made a chessboard by hand knows how wonderfully rich, yet remarkably thin the ebony veneer actually is. Not everbody that plays chess has ever made a chess-board though.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2015 21:04:22 GMT
Mumf and his facts. Pisser. Hilarious in fact. You think that this country would get behind Corbyn do you ? I can see the 'blue rinsers' from Home Counties South charging the batteries on their electric scooters as we speak .....racing one another across the South Downs to the local polling station in quaint medieval villages . Hilarious my arse . The only thing that's hilarious is that you find the concept hilarious . I call it fucking defeatist and sad .
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Post by crapslinger on Jun 10, 2015 21:05:29 GMT
Jeremy Corbyn is the only one who should have any business in the Labour party. Suspect Burnham is most likely to win the race and the most likely to blow with the wind later in dodgiest ways. But would Corbyns appointment attract back to the party those 'floating voters' who have in a very short space of time voted for all shades of the political rainbow in gay abandonment of any real loyalty or compassion of socialism . I'm talking about people who change their vote on a whim . One minute 'Liberal'....the next ' Green' etc for no other reason than their mood at the time. Let's get one thing absolutely piggin straight here. Corbyn is so far left of the party , his local launderette is in the west of Moscow. His local restaurant maybe a culinary masterpiece of ethnic diversity and hence his popularity standing within the bowels of Islington is unblemished .A rich and colourful character whose roots eminate from Shropshire no less... This man is about as electable as is Boris Johnson to that of the Tories. If you want to stand absolutely no sodding chance of winning anything then put him in charge .! If his politics is what is most important to you .....then do eet.....a younger version of Michael Foot or Tony Benn . I fucking give up .....I am bereft of useful adjectives to describe my dismay for some people's lack of understanding of politics . THERES NO POINT BACKING CORBYN IF YOU WANT TO WIN ANYTHING. It's a big wide world out there chaps ....and if Labour want to effect change then you need to 'be in it , to win it' . We need centre or middle ground Labour MP's not Stalinists on a path of political self destruction . It needs to be a modern party for modern problems . Problems like falling education standards , lack of social housing , rising university fees , massive investment in jobs and ABOVE ALL ELSE recognition that the working downtrodden working classes want to see an end to mass migration .They want to see more better paid jobs for indigenous workers .they don't want to see 300,000 foreigners coming every bloody year . This was the policy that founded UKIP and its FOUR MILLION voters.... My comments by the way are not simply an opinion ...they are a FACT Please don't take my word for it ....read the broadsheets . They're all saying the same ....and They're ALL SPOT ON ! Mumf The left is dying in this country, elect this dinosaur and they will soon be extinct, four million as you say turned to UKIP for a voice, how many of those were disgruntled ex Labour voters ?, I was one of them dyed in the wool Labour supporters even after the Bliar fiasco, no more until they change their on mass immigration that as far as I am concerned is a FACT.
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Post by desman2 on Jun 10, 2015 21:05:32 GMT
Wasnt Corbyn the one who sympathised with the IRA.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2015 21:06:39 GMT
Jeremy Corbyn is the only one who should have any business in the Labour party. Suspect Burnham is most likely to win the race and the most likely to blow with the wind later in dodgiest ways. Which *Labour Party? Labour? Real Labour? New Labour? Real New Labour? NeoLabour-X17? (OK...I made the last one up ) But which one will they decide to be? They're like Mr.Benn (the one in the fancy dress shop).
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2015 21:07:36 GMT
Mumf and his facts. Pisser. Labour lost the last election by the way ..... And will lose the next . There only hope is more immigrant voters coming to a place near you .
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