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Post by bigjohnritchie on May 26, 2015 7:01:06 GMT
The clip below is from the Guardian. It seems clear to me that France and Germany do and will continue to dictate the direction of the EU for the foreseeable future,even if the UK changed tzct znd made a concerted effort to be involved. Leaving aside all the other (personal and UKIP )issues that these posts often degenerate into, I just can't se how the British nation will ever be comfortable with this.Some will see it as advocating our responsibility to govern ourselves, and just leaving it to others.
....... Germany and France agree closer eurozone ties without treaty change Proposals to be presented at EU summit in June will come as a blow to David Cameron who will table British pre-referendum demands at same meeting Ian Traynor in Brussels and Frances Perraudin in London Published: 18:55 BST Mon 25 May 2015 Germany and France have forged a pact to integrate the eurozone without reopening the EU’s treaties, in a blow to David Cameron’s referendum campaign.
Sidestepping Britain’s demands to renegotiate the Lisbon treaty and Britain’s place in the EU, the German chancellor, Angela Merkel, and the French president, François Hollande, have sealed an agreement aimed at fashioning a tighter political union among the single-currency countries while operating within the confines of the existing treaty.
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Post by salopstick on May 26, 2015 7:13:37 GMT
We need the EU but not total political union
It's shit like this that will lose the referendum for the pro movement.
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Post by Deleted on May 26, 2015 7:46:28 GMT
Merkel has cemented Germany as the de facto EU powerhouse and any struggling country see Germany as a potential bailout option. France have buddied up,and with shared border too,offers a serious central core to the Union.
Britain, for many years,have sat our MEPs there who have done nothing but strictly oppose EVERYTHING, regardless of what it is that is being tables and completely mmarginalised us. Now we want to go back and renegotiate and expect them to cooperate. Good luck!
Of course,as said above,this will ultimately do no favours for pro-union. Theres no middle ground on this,UK either plays ball or fucks off, and this us the result of many years of those representatives turning UK in to the crybaby outcast
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Post by bigjohnritchie on May 26, 2015 7:52:47 GMT
Merkel has cemented Germany as the de facto EU powerhouse and any struggling country see Germany as a potential bailout option. France have buddied up,and with shared border too,offers a serious central core to the Union. Britain, for many years,have sat our MEPs there who have done nothing but strictly oppose EVERYTHING, regardless of what it is that is being tables and completely mmarginalised us. Now we want to go back and renegotiate and expect them to cooperate. Good luck! Of course,as said above,this will ultimately do no favours for pro-union. Theres no middle ground on this,UK either plays ball or fucks off, and this us the result of many years of those representatives turning UK in to the crybaby outcast UA To an extent I agree. BUT being a pragmatist and as is often said "we are where we are", Which one of your two options should we take?
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Post by Deleted on May 26, 2015 8:49:51 GMT
Merkel has cemented Germany as the de facto EU powerhouse and any struggling country see Germany as a potential bailout option. France have buddied up,and with shared border too,offers a serious central core to the Union. Britain, for many years,have sat our MEPs there who have done nothing but strictly oppose EVERYTHING, regardless of what it is that is being tables and completely mmarginalised us. Now we want to go back and renegotiate and expect them to cooperate. Good luck! Of course,as said above,this will ultimately do no favours for pro-union. Theres no middle ground on this,UK either plays ball or fucks off, and this us the result of many years of those representatives turning UK in to the crybaby outcast UA To an extent I agree. BUT being a pragmatist and as is often said "we are where we are", Which one of your two options should we take? At this moment i really dont know,but I'd prefer to stay. However,i won't be able to vote anyway!
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Post by redstriper on May 26, 2015 9:59:59 GMT
France and Germany can merge if they like, though it may make some question why we fought to liberate them.
We have too many tiers of government, and as a business owner I (nor any of my peers) have received any help from the EU, and don't export there anyway.
I cannot think of a single piece of legislation that has proved of benefit to Britain that has come out of Brussels. And with net payments that must be pushing 100 billion.
I went to Brussels to do some business with a Belgium company five years ago, from what I saw every café and restaurant was full of bureaucrats spending our money on over priced delicacies.
needless to say - they will not be getting my vote unless we see massive reform.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on May 26, 2015 17:45:32 GMT
According to the Guardian it's going to be impossible to get a deal. What does the Csmeron do then; prrtend he has got a deal , or canvas to leave?
Cameron’s bid for special treatment in Europe is a phenomenal gamble Simon Jenkins Follow contributor Published: 10:36 BST Tue 26 May 2015 566 ? ‘David Cameron’s current handicap is that the more Germany and France talk up convergence, the more they play into the hands of Britain’s Eurosceptics.’ Photograph: Julien Warnand/EPA Germany and France talking up eurozone convergence plays to Britain’s Eurosceptics. Few of Cameron’s fellow European leaders would dare take this risk David Cameron is about to hurl his irresistible election mandate at the immoveable object of France and Germany, and their desire for ever closer union. He is to clear his diary for a month-long campaign to avert another diplomatic car crash over Europe.
Cameron has promised “fundamental change” in Britain’s treaty relations with the EU, with a referendum by the end of 2017. Germany and France have no interest in such a negotiation. They are more concerned with Greece and Italy, and with achieving “economic, fiscal and social convergence” for the eurozone.
Such convergence, revealed today by Le Monde and the Guardian, is to be sought without recourse to new treaties or referendums – with their risk of popular rejection. These are precisely the antics of a centralised and undemocratic oligarchy that makes Europe anathema to Cameron’s party and to a present majority of Britons.
Like John Major in 1992, the British prime minister has covert allies among the lesser leaders in Europe. Many are sceptical of Germany’s strengthening muscle and have nationalist parties snapping at their heels. But as Major found, these tend to be fair-weather friends, most in varying states of economic serfdom to Germany.
Cameron’s plan is to win a consensus of European leaders for special treatment for Britain, as in migration, deregulation, justice and other forms of sovereignty. If a new treaty is not feasible – as is surely the case – a plausible confection of protocols and opt-outs would have to do. These would have to seem “fundamental” enough to pass muster in a British referendum.
To win such a vote for staying in Europe, Cameron might have to split his own party and rely on compliant Labour and Scottish MPs for support. Success on that basis is not inconceivable, but it would need a Herculean exercise in public relations. It might also devastate Cameron’s inevitably weakening leadership, since he has already said he will retire before the next election.
This is a phenomenal gamble. Cameron’s current handicap is that the more Germany and France talk up eurozone convergence, the more they play into the hands of Britain’s Eurosceptics. The zone’s competitiveness in world markets is declining, as is its ability to meet the aspirations of its poorer members. The siren call for a different sort of Europe will grow stronger – and Cameron will in effect have to defend the status quo. But at least he is holding a referendum. Few of his fellow European leaders would dare take that risk.
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on May 26, 2015 17:54:10 GMT
France and Germany can merge if they like, though it may make some question why we fought to liberate them. We have too many tiers of government, and as a business owner I (nor any of my peers) have received any help from the EU, and don't export there anyway. I cannot think of a single piece of legislation that has proved of benefit to Britain that has come out of Brussels. And with net payments that must be pushing 100 billion. I went to Brussels to do some business with a Belgium company five years ago, from what I saw every café and restaurant was full of bureaucrats spending our money on over priced delicacies. needless to say - they will not be getting my vote unless we see massive reform. What about the EU law to limit roaming charges when you're abroad? Pretty sure that's been a benefit for a lot of Britons. Out of interest, how did you know all these people in the cafes and restaurants were bureaucrats?
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Post by boothenboy75 on May 26, 2015 18:50:17 GMT
There's various stories in the papers today, all slightly different but basically saying that France and GErmany are prssing ahead with ever greater union. Call me cynical, but I believe that has Cameron has no chance of renegotiating anything (might get one or two minor concessions), this is a ploy to cast him as fighting off yet more influence. He'll then go into the referendum with no change but will say he's held the ever increasing influence of the EU at bay.
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Post by redstriper on May 27, 2015 10:36:01 GMT
France and Germany can merge if they like, though it may make some question why we fought to liberate them. We have too many tiers of government, and as a business owner I (nor any of my peers) have received any help from the EU, and don't export there anyway. I cannot think of a single piece of legislation that has proved of benefit to Britain that has come out of Brussels. And with net payments that must be pushing 100 billion. I went to Brussels to do some business with a Belgium company five years ago, from what I saw every café and restaurant was full of bureaucrats spending our money on over priced delicacies. needless to say - they will not be getting my vote unless we see massive reform. What about the EU law to limit roaming charges when you're abroad? Pretty sure that's been a benefit for a lot of Britons. Out of interest, how did you know all these people in the cafes and restaurants were bureaucrats? Is that the best positive you can come up with ??... says it all really nb) the boss of the company I went to see kindly gave me the inside track on the gravy train from a locals point of view.
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Post by britsabroad on May 27, 2015 16:40:27 GMT
The EU will basically collapse if we leave. Thats the ultimate threat if we go to referendum, so im certain they will give concessions when it looks to be heading that way. They need us just as much as we need them.
France is fucked anyway with their socialist government. Theyve killed their economy.
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