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Post by Lesalanos on Jan 24, 2015 23:00:04 GMT
Not yet, let's wait for his reasoned arguments and the supporting factual evidence be heard. Sterling, the next theo Walcott, Lllana the next Gerard, mignolet, the next gordon banks. Brendan's ego cost them the title. Liverpool were a 2.5 man team, and with Suarez gone and gerrard a year older, who do they have? Bojan would be going backwards to play for them. He's played at possibly the biggest club in the world. Shoot he's been to more champions league finals in his lifetime than Liverpool Playing second fiddle to some of the players named by Sherriff, or messi and xavi? Playing for a manager who loves himself more than the team? I'm struggling to see the attraction. Manure,man city, arsenal, fair enough. Southampton would be a better fit
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Post by sheriff on Jan 24, 2015 23:05:35 GMT
I like Sherriff, nothing better than an oppo fan to have a reasoned discussion with. Just a few questions. Why do so many of Liverpool signings underperform? Of the players you call out as similar to Bojan, how many games have/had they played up until 24? I'd say with over 100 starts in a team that won 2 Champions leagues, the league etc is pretty good going. What has Sterling /Sturridge/ Lllana/ pretty much everyone else actually achieved, or won compared to a Bojan? How good could Bojan have been if was given a rest in Jamaica mid season? How does Brendan's record compared to Hughes? How many of the Liverpool defence would Stoke want to swap for. The side indictment is that Liverpool have managed to become a team that has won the same number of premier league than Stoke, and despite the mass outlay struggle to compete, and often flatter to deceive. The fact that with this immense wealthy, pedigree, global brand and wonderful support, the sum of parts is an also ran. A Liverpool fan would answer better about the club's signings. And it's unfair to be comparing what they've won compared to Bojan. That's like comparing John O'Shea to Gerrard. Bojan made little difference to what Barca won. Also, Liverpool may have wasted a lot of money, but Chelsea, City and Man U have immense resources and spending too. Toppling those clubs isn't easy.
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Post by sheriff on Jan 24, 2015 23:11:01 GMT
You're struggling to see the attraction of moving from Stoke to Liverpool? Seriously? How about much bigger wages? Champions League or Europa football? Contesting for trophies (at least cups)? Playing alongside better players in a more attacking team?
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Post by Lesalanos on Jan 24, 2015 23:12:43 GMT
You'd only be answering your own questions.
Who is your team?
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Post by Laughing Gravy on Jan 24, 2015 23:14:57 GMT
You're struggling to see the attraction of moving from Stoke to Liverpool? Seriously? How about much bigger wages? Champions League or Europa football? Contesting for trophies (at least cups)? Playing alongside better players in a more attacking team? Good one. You're a scally and no mistake.
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Post by mickstupp on Jan 24, 2015 23:16:09 GMT
Why didn't Liverpool sign Bojan six months ago when he was available for a pittance??
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Post by Lesalanos on Jan 24, 2015 23:19:09 GMT
Out of the champions league, not likely to re qualify. He's played in Europe, how much does sterling get compared to bojan?
The lad who recently went to inter who we were both interested in, I forget his name, he was a no mark reserve from Spain. Anyway his agent said that Stoke made a far better financial offer.
He'd also be on the bench.
So in summary, no more money, less playing time and the chance to play in the Europa league for one season, even john Shea wouldn't come for that. Having said that he'd be a better signing for you.
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Post by sheriff on Jan 24, 2015 23:21:12 GMT
Why didn't Liverpool sign Bojan six months ago when he was available for a pittance?? Cos he's flopped everywhere he's gone. He fell off the radar of top clubs and that's why Barca sold him for little.
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Post by Lesalanos on Jan 24, 2015 23:24:25 GMT
That's right he flopped, and Liverpool only sign players who have a track record and pedigree.
Reasons why the likes of Arsenal and Liverpool flatter to deceive.
They only sign players with proven pedigree.
Clearly if bojan was the next messi then he wouldn't be playing for us or Liverpool.
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Post by PotteringThrough on Jan 24, 2015 23:25:36 GMT
You're struggling to see the attraction of moving from Stoke to Liverpool? Seriously? How about much bigger wages? Champions League or Europa football? Contesting for trophies (at least cups)? Playing alongside better players in a more attacking team? That's how they got Lambert and Lallana, look at Southampton now. For the record your original argument is wrong. It's not about the step up or the change in expectations at clubs. It's about using the right player in the right way. Liverpool had Downing and Carroll at the same time and look at how well they link up for West Ham. It's because they are allowed to play in their natural way. Look at Sturridge. Couldn't get a game for Chelsea but has been scoring for fun for Liverpool. It was the same when he was at Bolton on loan. They played him up front, down the middle - not out wide. That's why he's performing and that's why he performed at Bolton. He also showed some signs at Man City but made the wrong choice to move to Chelsea. Simple fact is if Bojan went to Liverpool and was given some freedom he'd excel. He'd be the main man who all the attacks went through. He'd also be far too good for them and eventually move to a big club challenging for the league.
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Post by mickstupp on Jan 24, 2015 23:25:38 GMT
Why didn't Liverpool sign Bojan six months ago when he was available for a pittance?? Cos he's flopped everywhere he's gone. He fell off the radar of top clubs and that's why Barca sold him for little. Agreed, hence the reason why this transfer rumour is a load of bollocks. Bojan is a fine player and that is without question, but it will take more than half a dozen good games for Stoke for the big clubs to come sniffing after him. He will stay here until summer 2016 at least.
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Post by Lesalanos on Jan 24, 2015 23:33:38 GMT
Mick, Sherriff logic here. Bojan c200 games and 40+ goals for barca! Ajax! Roma et al flop. Not up to much. We sign for 500k Liverpool Couthino about 30 games for inter and espanyol struggled at espanyol. £8.5m a better player and prospect. Markovic had to google him. £20m after setting the world alight at benefic? Neither won a tin pot. Arsenal Calum chambers 16m after 20 games in the prem fine prospect. 7 yellows and a red this season. Shawcross no mark.
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Post by stokemanusa on Jan 24, 2015 23:40:45 GMT
Mick, Sherriff logic here. Bojan c200 games and 40+ goals for barca! Ajax! Roma et al flop. Not up to much. We sign for 500k Liverpool Couthino about 30 games for inter and espanyol struggled at espanyol. £8.5m a better player and prospect. Markovic had to google him. £20m after setting the world alight at benefic? Neither won a tin pot. Arsenal Calum chambers 16m after 20 games in the prem fine prospect. 7 yellows and a red this season. Shawcross no mark. And they wonder why they are sub par season after season and bottle it to other bigger clubs... Stop overpaying for no name players with no real experience... no pedigree and for god sake stop with the flavor of the months. The amount of money wasted by them is astronomical.
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Post by sheriff on Jan 24, 2015 23:45:39 GMT
You're struggling to see the attraction of moving from Stoke to Liverpool? Seriously? How about much bigger wages? Champions League or Europa football? Contesting for trophies (at least cups)? Playing alongside better players in a more attacking team? That's how they got Lambert and Lallana, look at Southampton now. For the record your original argument is wrong. It's not about the step up or the change in expectations at clubs. It's about using the right player in the right way. Liverpool had Downing and Carroll at the same time and look at how well they link up for West Ham. It's because they are allowed to play in their natural way. Look at Sturridge. Couldn't get a game for Chelsea but has been scoring for fun for Liverpool. It was the same when he was at Bolton on loan. They played him up front, down the middle - not out wide. That's why he's performing and that's why he performed at Bolton. He also showed some signs at Man City but made the wrong choice to move to Chelsea. Simple fact is if Bojan went to Liverpool and was given some freedom he'd excel. He'd be the main man who all the attacks went through. He'd also be far too good for them and eventually move to a big club challenging for the league. Yes, it's often about systems, but the pressure and expectation is often different and some players can't cope. Look at Lovren's rotten form for 'Pool and it's hard to explain. This was the same guy marshalling a Southampton defence that held the highest defensive line in the league under Pochettino's pressing system and he was good at it. But he went to pieces at Liverpool. Downing's game wasn't any different at Liverpool. He just couldn't execute anything. He clearly withered under the pressure. And Bojan wouldn't be the main man at Liverpool as he is at Stoke. Even in a team like Ajax, he struggled to impose himself. Ajax have good technical players and their approach never utilized Bojan's individuality. When you play with the likes of Sturridge, Sterling, Coutinho, Lallana and even Markovic (who's coming on strongly to - electric on his day), you have less room for individual expression than when playing with Crouch, Arnautovic, Walters etc.
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Post by Lesalanos on Jan 24, 2015 23:49:04 GMT
That's it in a nutshell.
Is it better to sign a player for €500k who has played 180 games at the highest level winning everything there is to win at least once. Being the best youth goal scorer in barcas history to boot. Not my opinion that of the barca faithful.
Or to sign borini for £8.5m who after playing a few games for Swansea(failed at Chelsea, at least bojan could get on the pitch with messi) and 25 for Roma achieved the sum of nothing.
It does beggar belief.
As for temperament, sterling got sent off in a World Cup friendly(I was there) of plainer he was too tired to play some third rate Estonian side, and after the sum of 80 games for Liverpool has just returned from a much needed rest!! He's fecking 20. At 20 bojan was winning a champions league medal.
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Post by sheriff on Jan 24, 2015 23:50:18 GMT
Mick, Sherriff logic here. Bojan c200 games and 40+ goals for barca! Ajax! Roma et al flop. Not up to much. We sign for 500k Liverpool Couthino about 30 games for inter and espanyol struggled at espanyol. £8.5m a better player and prospect. Markovic had to google him. £20m after setting the world alight at benefic? Neither won a tin pot. Arsenal Calum chambers 16m after 20 games in the prem fine prospect. 7 yellows and a red this season. Shawcross no mark. And they wonder why they are sub par season after season and bottle it to other bigger clubs... Stop overpaying for no name players with no real experience... no pedigree and for god sake stop with the flavor of the months. The amount of money wasted by them is astronomical. How are we sub-par? At absolute worst, we achieve par every season for expectation. The only 3 teams that usually finish above us are City, Chelsea and United who are in a different spending universe. Liverpool who outspend us as well spent 4 of the last 5 seasons floating around 7th and 8th in mid-table. That is sub-par.
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Post by sheriff on Jan 24, 2015 23:53:32 GMT
That's it in a nutshell. Is it better to sign a player for €500k who has played 180 games at the highest level winning everything there is to win at least once. Being the best youth goal scorer in barcas history to boot. Not my opinion that of the barca faithful. Or to sign borini for £8.5m who after playing a few games for Swansea(failed at Chelsea, at least bojan could get on the pitch with messi) and 25 for Roma achieved the sum of nothing. It does beggar belief. As for temperament, sterling got sent off in a World Cup friendly(I was there) of plainer he was too tired to play some third rate Estonian side, and after the sum of 80 games for Liverpool has just returned from a much needed rest!! He's fecking 20. At 20 bojan was winning a champions league medal. I'm not sure why you keep mentioning what Bojan has won. He was irrelevant to what Barca won. He fluked a CL medal on the back of Messi, Iniesta and Xavi taking Man U to pieces.
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Post by Lesalanos on Jan 24, 2015 23:53:52 GMT
Sherriff, when you're playing under a manager who can organise a defence you look a lot better. That said Southampton finished 6 points ahead of Stoke and were third bottom in January.
Anyway after doing a little analysis I've come to the conclusion that none of the players you have named have the pedigree of bojan, fortunately for us Liverpool will continue to spend big on the next big thing, most of which fail. Bojan may have struggled to cope with the pressure of life at Barca, but none of the players you've named who you see as better have done nothing of note anywhere.
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Post by PotteringThrough on Jan 24, 2015 23:58:03 GMT
Yes, it's often about systems, but the pressure and expectation is often different and some players can't cope. Look at Lovren's rotten form for 'Pool and it's hard to explain. This was the same guy marshalling a Southampton defence that held the highest defensive line in the league under Pochettino's pressing system and he was good at it. But he went to pieces at Liverpool. Downing's game wasn't any different at Liverpool. He just couldn't execute anything. He clearly withered under the pressure. And Bojan wouldn't be the main man at Liverpool as he is at Stoke. Even in a team like Ajax, he struggled to impose himself. Ajax have good technical players and their approach never utilized Bojan's individuality. When you play with the likes of Sturridge, Sterling, Coutinho, Lallana and even Markovic (who's coming on strongly to - electric on his day), you have less room for individual expression than when playing with Crouch, Arnautovic, Walters etc. Lovren has always looked dodgy if you made him head the ball. Lovren marshalled no one as well, they worked as a unit, something which Liverpool don't. The forwards and midfielders put a hell of a lot of pressure on teams to win the ball and that's why they had such a high line. Downing was stuck out wide for Liverpool and whenever he got the ball he had to pass it to Gerrard. At Wet Sham he's allowed to drift all around the pitch but mainly focus on getting the ball when he's in the middle of the park. Bojan doesn't need much room to make his mark. This is why there is this reported interest from Liverpool, because the players in those positions can't break the line like he can. Sterling, Sturridge and Markovic are redundant in the discussion because they don;t play in the same position as Bojan. However given your apparent belief in Liverpool's superiority over plucky Stoke and it's quite incredible to suggest that Bojan is actually performing better than those pair, especially as it's his 1st season in the league. In short your beliefs and ideologys are completely wrong.
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Post by Lesalanos on Jan 24, 2015 23:59:58 GMT
Just think how good arsenal could be if they signed players who could defend. £16m on Calum Chambers will go down as possibly the worst deal of them all.
Remind me who skinned him at stoke( yes that bojan)
Anyway I'll go now, and leave you to explain how good business spending £50+ million on llalna, markovic! coutinho and borini is.
Failing that maybe how World Cup winners can come to arsenal and look out of sorts. Or maybe why Arsene signs players like chambers?
Just happy to be little old stoke living the dream within our means, watching the big boys spend.
PS care to mention what any of the greats signed by LFC won. The ones you champion as better. A peripheral player who got game time in a great team or c£50m who did nothing at smaller teams?
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Post by Lesalanos on Jan 25, 2015 0:06:08 GMT
That's it in a nutshell. Is it better to sign a player for €500k who has played 180 games at the highest level winning everything there is to win at least once. Being the best youth goal scorer in barcas history to boot. Not my opinion that of the barca faithful. Or to sign borini for £8.5m who after playing a few games for Swansea(failed at Chelsea, at least bojan could get on the pitch with messi) and 25 for Roma achieved the sum of nothing. It does beggar belief. As for temperament, sterling got sent off in a World Cup friendly(I was there) of plainer he was too tired to play some third rate Estonian side, and after the sum of 80 games for Liverpool has just returned from a much needed rest!! He's fecking 20. At 20 bojan was winning a champions league medal. I'm not sure why you keep mentioning what Bojan has won. He was irrelevant to what Barca won. He fluked a CL medal on the back of Messi, Iniesta and Xavi taking Man U to pieces. Just to clarify I mention it because this so called peripheral player played more games in that exalted company than any of the better players you put ahead of him. None of the £50m of better players looked great in poor teams and one never got to be a peripheral player at Chelsea.
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Post by sheriff on Jan 25, 2015 0:25:55 GMT
Yes, it's often about systems, but the pressure and expectation is often different and some players can't cope. Look at Lovren's rotten form for 'Pool and it's hard to explain. This was the same guy marshalling a Southampton defence that held the highest defensive line in the league under Pochettino's pressing system and he was good at it. But he went to pieces at Liverpool. Downing's game wasn't any different at Liverpool. He just couldn't execute anything. He clearly withered under the pressure. And Bojan wouldn't be the main man at Liverpool as he is at Stoke. Even in a team like Ajax, he struggled to impose himself. Ajax have good technical players and their approach never utilized Bojan's individuality. When you play with the likes of Sturridge, Sterling, Coutinho, Lallana and even Markovic (who's coming on strongly to - electric on his day), you have less room for individual expression than when playing with Crouch, Arnautovic, Walters etc. Lovren has always looked dodgy if you made him head the ball. Lovren marshalled no one as well, they worked as a unit, something which Liverpool don't. The forwards and midfielders put a hell of a lot of pressure on teams to win the ball and that's why they had such a high line. Downing was stuck out wide for Liverpool and whenever he got the ball he had to pass it to Gerrard. At Wet Sham he's allowed to drift all around the pitch but mainly focus on getting the ball when he's in the middle of the park. Bojan doesn't need much room to make his mark. This is why there is this reported interest from Liverpool, because the players in those positions can't break the line like he can. Sterling, Sturridge and Markovic are redundant in the discussion because they don;t play in the same position as Bojan. However given your apparent belief in Liverpool's superiority over plucky Stoke and it's quite incredible to suggest that Bojan is actually performing better than those pair, especially as it's his 1st season in the league. In short your beliefs and ideologys are completely wrong. Every good defence works as a unit, so I don't get the pedantism. I said Lovren marshalled defence cos he was clearly the main vocal organizer - much like a Kompany or Shawcross or Terry. That doesn't mean the defence don't operate as one. Liverpool don't play much differently from Pochettino's Southampton. They like to compress the space and they're very intense. Anfield has been our most difficult away league game this season and they never allowed us settle and play - though we nicked a draw. Lovren should be succeeding in the system but it took Sakho's return for their defence to recover. Who says Sterling and Markovic don't play the same role? Sterling plays as an inside forward or no.10 for 'Pool and has had a recent stint in the Messi-esque "false 9" role when Liverpool dropped their strikers. Bojan plays all those roles. Infact, since January last season, Sterling plays no.10 more than Coutinho who usually starts on the left. Markovic is mostly a wide man, but an Benfica, was played all across the attacking midfield role. These would be Bojan's competition in addition to Coutinho. Even Sturridge isn't redundant cos he can comfortably play across the entire frontline - whether as a winger, inside forward, striker or support striker. I respect your opinion though.
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Post by stokiejoeofalsager on Jan 25, 2015 0:27:50 GMT
when you described coutinho there, you described bojan perfectly. Except bojan scores more. As you said. Sterling "easily better"? Give me a break. Technically, bojan is massively ahead of sterling. The only thing sterling has on him is extra pace, but bojan has the feet and balance to deal with that. A butterfly with a slight cough blows sterling over. By "technically", you mean he looks more elegant, rather than actual execution. Sterling runs funny, so he doesn't look like a ballerina. But for sure, Sterling scares me a lot more than Bojan would. You say "extra pace" as if it's not a massive advantage. Extra pace is the reason Liverpool mauled Arsenal 5-1 last season. While our technical midgets were tapping it around in midfield while Sterling, Sturridge and Coutinho were running riot. Pace kills. Technique is great, but it's often overhyped in football compared to physical qualities. Sterling had no execution against Bolton today. He had no end product. He overran it often and his final ball was poor. But it's fine, because he can run a bit fast. Bojan isn't slow by any means either. I was just saying that sterling is quicker. Like Cameron Jerome is quicker.
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Post by PotteringThrough on Jan 25, 2015 0:35:42 GMT
Every good defence works as a unit, so I don't get the pedantism. I said Lovren marshalled defence cos he was clearly the main vocal organizer - much like a Kompany or Shawcross or Terry. That doesn't mean the defence don't operate as one. Liverpool don't play much differently from Pochettino's Southampton. They like to compress the space and they're very intense. Anfield has been our most difficult away league game this season and they never allowed us settle and play - though we nicked a draw. Lovren should be succeeding in the system but it took Sakho's return for their defence to recover. Who says Sterling and Markovic don't play the same role? Sterling plays as an inside forward or no.10 for 'Pool and has had a recent stint in the Messi-esque "false 9" role when Liverpool dropped their strikers. Bojan plays all those roles. Infact, since January last season, Sterling plays no.10 more than Coutinho who usually starts on the left. Markovic is mostly a wide man, but an Benfica, was played all across the attacking midfield role. These would be Bojan's competition in addition to Coutinho. Even Sturridge isn't redundant cos he can comfortably play across the entire frontline - whether as a winger, inside forward, striker or support striker. I respect your opinion though. Raheem Sterling says he doesn't play the same role - He's a centre forward: Have a lookAny by the way, therin ends my contributions to this pointless conversation because you seem to be seeing different things when teams/players play - hence the pedantism/patronising.
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Post by johnnysoul60 on Jan 25, 2015 0:42:50 GMT
I just hope the lad has the sense to stay with us until he can walk into the first eleven of any so called big club , he is better being the star at Stoke than being a squad player anywhere especially after the past few seasons , another year with us and he could be a top player but if he jumps too early , not sure it will help him . Num num parlour on talk shite was saying today Citeh should buy him in case Silva gets injured that type of move would do him no good in the long term
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Post by stokiejoeofalsager on Jan 25, 2015 1:10:42 GMT
This is a good one too: "we would have kept Assaidi if we wanted a player like him." Just outstanding
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Post by WorkingclassHero on Jan 25, 2015 1:11:05 GMT
Interesting that we are at a level now where Liverpool fans feel the need to knock us. Genuine top ten side now, looking forward to turning then over again
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Post by stokemanusa on Jan 25, 2015 1:15:03 GMT
And they wonder why they are sub par season after season and bottle it to other bigger clubs... Stop overpaying for no name players with no real experience... no pedigree and for god sake stop with the flavor of the months. The amount of money wasted by them is astronomical. How are we sub-par? At absolute worst, we achieve par every season for expectation. The only 3 teams that usually finish above us are City, Chelsea and United who are in a different spending universe. Liverpool who outspend us as well spent 4 of the last 5 seasons floating around 7th and 8th in mid-table. That is sub-par. Except when liverpool lost to crystal palace up 3 right? You lot lost to Bradford City like chelsea did in the cup a few years back. That's the sub par I'm on about mate, delusional you lot are. Just like Liverpool if not worse at times... Chambers.... Seriously??? The amount of money your club has compared to say an Everton or us is amazing. But you squander it like Liverpool on feel good signings. You still don't have a capable defense but buy a new midfield every window. If you bought just two new CB's which where world class you'd fair much better but as I've said your delusional.
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Post by dieguito88 on Jan 25, 2015 1:27:02 GMT
Still can't believe anyone would rate Bojan above Sterling, tbh. Coutinho might be comparable, and I rate him the better footballer with the more menacing threat than Bojan, but Sterling is miles ahead. Sure, his finishing is still far from the finished article, but he creates a lot more. And his dribbling is fantastic. Only Hazard executes more dribbles and only Hazard creates more from open play. And he runs his socks off and wins his share of duels and tackles. Simply nobody here has compared Bojan to Sterling, because they are clearly different player. A Striker (Sterling) can't be compared to an advanced midifielder ( like is Bojan now). Mark Hughes has changed a bit his role at Stoke, is different from when he played at Roma (striker/second striker) Milan (same) and Ajax (benchwarmer). The Team goes by his feet, passes and movement. ATM he and the two wingers are the key players of the team.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2015 2:35:41 GMT
Bojan and his father aren't stupid. They aren't going to leave a club where he is revered and re building his career that have blown their Champions League football chances by blowing all the money they made from selling the player who get them there.
If Bojan is going to move, then it will be to an actual big club where failure wouldn't completely damage his reputation NOT to a team who will be defying the odds if they get a Europa League position.
In terms of who is better Bojan, Lallana, Sterling or Coutinhio then you are very welcome to your media shaped opinion. We, on the other hand, are very glad that the first player in that list has led our attack during Arnautovic's loss of form and our worst injury crisis in years and not any of the others.
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