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Butland
Jan 12, 2014 22:27:50 GMT
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Post by huuuuuth on Jan 12, 2014 22:27:50 GMT
I thought he did well today.
20 year old lad making his first full premier league appearance, against some top class strikers and a bit of keystone cops defending in front if him.
He's got a good future has our jack.
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Post by salopstick on Jan 12, 2014 23:10:43 GMT
Own goal not his fault Suarez first, he shouldn't have come out Peno - no chance Suarez second a great goal he couldn't do much about Sturridge great save unlucky where it went
All in all a good performance against a very good team in top 4 with arguably the second best player in the world at this moment
It's amazing how the club have managed to get a future England number 1 keeper. He knows that the way top teams buy foreign keepers he may find it hard to play regularly at a top club the club ought to extend his contract
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Post by stokeramblers on Jan 12, 2014 23:19:01 GMT
My worry is what Pulis is planning to do to him I fully expect Jack to get roughed up and have someone standing on his toes at every set piece.
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Post by Trouserdog on Jan 12, 2014 23:29:56 GMT
Blimey, you've just assassinated the lad there! Nice. Not meant as an assassination, more an honest assessment of his ability at present. Were Begovic in goal today, the second goal wouldn't have happened, he would have made the 4th harder and the 5th he would have taken before Sturridge even got the chance. Shawcross was so desperate to protect him and Butland needed to read the riot act and inspire confidence. He didn't and he doesn't have the presence to do so. He's 20, its to be expected but he has much to learn and we aren't good enough to let him learn on the job. Individual errors and another shit ref have cost us big time today and for me, Butland was as culpable as anyone for the shambles at the back. Extremely harsh. Actually, Johnno- no. With all due respect, I'm going for "absolute bollocks" instead. After Wilson's complete fuck up of a header, the ball was clearly closer to Shawcross than it was Butland. With Suarez lurking as well, it was clearly Ryan's ball to clear- which he made a right pig's twat of. The lad had absolutely no chance with the 4th- even Bego wouldn't have got near it, and the 5th was just bad luck after an initial brilliant save. The only things that Butland did wrong today were a couple of dodgy throw-outs when he put us under a bit of unnecessary pressure. I can't fault him for any of the goals at all. As a 20 year-old keeper, he'll make a few mistakes for us, but he can't be blamed in any way for what happened today.
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Post by Olgrligm on Jan 12, 2014 23:31:03 GMT
Reminded me a bit of Bego in our 0-7 defeat at Chelsea. Not a terrible performance, and not blatantly at fault for any of the goals, but just lacked a bit of authority which probably contributed to the scale of the scoreline. I was thinking that myself. I remember us conceding one where Begovic should have done better and another where he made a world class save, a bit like Butland today. It's the little bits of his game that aren't quite there yet - his command of his area and so on. Then again, he's been at Barnsley for a while and hasn't had much of a chance to work with his defence, who all had a shocker defensively.
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Butland
Jan 12, 2014 23:35:39 GMT
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Post by davejohnno1 on Jan 12, 2014 23:35:39 GMT
Not really. Butland should have cleaned everything out on that 2nd goal.
Ryan, in countless of those situations, always runs in behind the keeper. Today he didn't and he cleared unnecessarily at least 3 times.
He had dived on the penalty before the ball had even been struck just as he did v Everton.
He was also lucky not to give a penalty away when he came and flapped and succeeded only in punching Suarez in the face, though for that alone, he deserves enormous credit.
Tommy to start at Palace for me next week.
Spot on MD. Very similar to that Chelsea game.
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Post by stokeramblers on Jan 12, 2014 23:38:16 GMT
Not really. Butland should have cleaned everything out on that 2nd goal. Ryan, in countless of those situations, always runs in behind the keeper. Today he didn't and he cleared unnecessarily at least 3 times. He had dived on the penalty before the ball had even been struck just as he did v Everton. He was also lucky not to give a penalty away when he came and flapped and succeeded only in punching Suarez in the face, though for that alone, he deserves enormous credit. Tommy to start at Palace for me next week. Don't most keepers go a bit early on penos? Just got to get lucky and pick the right side. Think you've been spoiled with Sorros penalty saving heroics.
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Post by Trouserdog on Jan 12, 2014 23:44:00 GMT
Not really. Butland should have cleaned everything out on that 2nd goal. Ryan, in countless of those situations, always runs in behind the keeper. Today he didn't and he cleared unnecessarily at least 3 times. He had dived on the penalty before the ball had even been struck just as he did v Everton. He was also lucky not to give a penalty away when he came and flapped and succeeded only in punching Suarez in the face, though for that alone, he deserves enormous credit. Tommy to start at Palace for me next week. Wilson's header put him in an impossible position. He'd come off his line anticipating that Wilson might head it back, but the header was so woeful that it left him 3rd favourite to get the ball after Shawcross and Suarez. It was Ryan's ball to clear and he fucked it up- simple as that really. Sorenson's had it Johnno. His reflexes have gone. I expect that Butland will make some genuine mistakes during the early part of his career (just like Bego did), but I think it'd be a mistake to drop him on today's evidence. Whichever one of them plays though, I'll feel far less secure than I would have with Bego in goals.
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Butland
Jan 13, 2014 0:06:46 GMT
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Post by philb on Jan 13, 2014 0:06:46 GMT
Think he needs more time out on loan for experience say in the Championship myself, didn't do a lot wrong really today, bit of an eye opener for him I suppose, but we desperately need Bego back ASAP.
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Post by Squeekster on Jan 13, 2014 0:16:43 GMT
Didn't do much wrong at all today, his save for their 5th was world class He shouldn't have had to make the save. It was 2 yards out and he should have claimed the ball before it got to Sturridge. Simple fact is if Begovic had played today (I'd argue even Tommy) and we would have won. It is to be expected as he's 20 years old but he has no presence at all, is glued to his line, inspires no confidence in those in front of him and hasn't a clue how to save a penalty. He isn't good enough YET and we can't afford to let him learn as he goes! Oh my gosh! We would of won it Bego or Sorro was in goal? Are you serious? Butland wasn't at fault for any of the goals,was a bit ropey with his distribution should of held one that spilled out but didn't cost us,the way we play it out from the back is down to what the management tell the players to do.
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Post by JoeinOz on Jan 13, 2014 0:21:23 GMT
Buto did well overall IMHO. Just gotta hope he doesn't get injured.
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Post by cheeesfreeex on Jan 13, 2014 1:04:40 GMT
Over the last few seasons the Holy triumvirate of Shawcross, Huth and Begovic has become the anchor of our 'successes'. No need to shout they knew/know one another's game. I thought Bego has never been a big shouter in the box, but the three of them seemed to have developed an innate symbiotic understanding. They've been tasked with playing differently this season. And then they get injured.
We're left with Shawcross, who I think has really started to perform better, despite carrying a knock {not particularly today}. Wilson {who's prior outings on the wing and as defensive midfielder were hardly awe inspiring}. ... and a rookie re-called keeper.
The number of goals we've shipped since the trio has been broken is gutting. {13 in Huth's short absence?} I wouldn't lay them all at Jack's door.
Though Johnno's assessment of Butland's performance is spot on, I can't agree with the conclusion.
Moving forward, rather than dropping Jack to contemplate things on the bench, I'd persevere with him between the sticks. Fitness wise we may not have a choice.
I've been impressed with his kicking, holding, throwing and positioning at this level. I've seen at least three world class saves, and he hasn't thrown the ball into his own net, tripped over it, or knocked one of ours out at a corner yet, so he's the future. While he develops, and the rest of the defence adapt we may need to adjust as a team.
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Post by tuum on Jan 13, 2014 3:20:52 GMT
Didn't do much wrong at all today, his save for their 5th was world class He shouldn't have had to make the save. It was 2 yards out and he should have claimed the ball before it got to Sturridge. Simple fact is if Begovic had played today (I'd argue even Tommy) and we would have won. It is to be expected as he's 20 years old but he has no presence at all, is glued to his line, inspires no confidence in those in front of him and hasn't a clue how to save a penalty. He isn't good enough YET and we can't afford to let him learn as he goes! I am neutral on your post other than "hasn't a clue how to save a penalty". What do you mean?
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Post by NassauDave on Jan 13, 2014 4:20:04 GMT
He's young, inexperienced, and he did very well.
He's our third choice keeper.......
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Butland
Jan 13, 2014 6:20:08 GMT
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Post by Ryan_Shawjosh on Jan 13, 2014 6:20:08 GMT
I didn't think he did too bad considering how the defence performed in front of him. Other people were at fault for all of the goals and conceding 5 is a bit harsh on him individually (not as a defence as a whole, though). He wasn't faultless but I saw enough to think we have more than an adequate replacement for Begovic when he eventually moves on. He could do with a bit more prem experience but we could eventually be no worse off than with Bego in goal.
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Butland
Jan 13, 2014 8:59:59 GMT
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Post by davejohnno1 on Jan 13, 2014 8:59:59 GMT
Guys, I know that it sounds like I'm knocking him but I don't mean to.
We are looking over our shoulders at the relegation places because we haven't got the points we have deserved. We should be sitting pretty in 10th spot now having picked up at least 7 points from our last 4 games.
We got 1. We can't afford to blood a young keeper who puts our defenders on pins because they don't know whether he's coming or staying. Our defending yesterday was as much to do with our teams desperate attempts to protect Butland as anything else and we can't afford that.
Butland needed to bollock them and let them know he could look after himself. He didn't and at 20 years of age, you wouldn't expect him too.
He needs to learn and develop, just like Asmir did, but right now, we aren't in a comfortable enough position to let him learn in our team.
We need Begovic back ASAP and if not him then a fit Tommy who has the presence to pull us through if he gets a run of games.
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Post by jeycov on Jan 13, 2014 9:08:00 GMT
I didn't think he did too bad considering how the defence performed in front of him. Other people were at fault for all of the goals and conceding 5 is a bit harsh on him individually (not as a defence as a whole, though). He wasn't faultless but I saw enough to think we have more than an adequate replacement for Begovic when he eventually moves on. He could do with a bit more prem experience but we could eventually be no worse off than with Bego in goal. I think that both Bego and Sorensen are more commanding when coming out to collect the ball and more importantly have the maturity to shout at the defence and take more responsibility in the goal area. He's only 20, loads of potential and thrown in against one of the best 2 attacking sides in the Prem. We need both of our experienced players to help Butland improve on these aspects of his game. Man Utd decided to go with a young and relatively inexperienced GK and it has been fine MH seems to have confidence in him too. Agree we need Bego back asap as I think we would have secured a draw - the defence would have been more organised.
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Post by mcf on Jan 13, 2014 9:10:32 GMT
This is symptomatic of the new outlook on life.
At our level then we should have 3 quality and experienced keepers.
Butland isn't there yet and by now, Sorro should be our 3rd choice.
I have no issue with 'players for the future' but I do when it is at the expense of a fully loaded squad for the here and now.
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Post by stokiejoeofalsager on Jan 13, 2014 9:31:57 GMT
Bego was almost EXACTLY the same (maybe a little worse actually) as Butland when he first started playing for us. Only difference is bego was 2 or 3 years older. Bottom line is Butland is a class 'keeper for his age and will only continue to grow in confidence & experience. Future England number one, no doubt.
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Post by OldStokie on Jan 13, 2014 10:45:43 GMT
I'm amazed that anyone can criticise Butland at all. He was playing his first full 90 mins in the Prem, up against the best striker in the league by a country mile, AND he was playing behind the utterlyfuckingshambolic excuse of a defence that we were. 10/10 from me, Butto.
OS.
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Post by mcf on Jan 13, 2014 10:53:56 GMT
How on earth can you give him 10/10???? He shouldn't be in this position - we should have a far more experienced keeper in. We are professional, Premiership club...not Daddy fucking Day Care.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2014 10:58:29 GMT
The second goal, Ryan should have smashed it clear, instead of the half arsed attempt he actually made.
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Post by broadack on Jan 13, 2014 12:14:05 GMT
Just can't agree with the criticism. First goal, no chance. Second goal. Shawcross's mishit effectively rounded Butland, and took him out the game. If you are looking at attributing blame, then it's for the two in front of him. Third goal, the penalty, and for me he didn't move early, he just got sent the wrong way. Fourth goal, quality finish, no chance. The 5th, again, to criticise him is very harsh. Made a great save, bounced back up, spread himself and was beaten at close range. It was a good finish, a lot of players would have just launched their shot from that range, but Sturridge placed it.
He wasn't perfect, and you can't really praise a keeper after conceding 5, but I can't see any 'mistakes' in any of the 5 goals. You're right about the Suarez punch though, he misjudged that (or judged it absolutely perfectly, I'm still undecided).
Truth is, I didn't see much difference between him and Mignolet at the other end, a keeper bought for £9 million, and regarded as one of the better keepers in the division. If Butland had conceded the Walters goal, people on here would be demanding that he be shipped out immediately, before pining for Asmir's return, the same Asmir that also made mistakes when he started out. Back the lad, give him some time in the team, and we'll be in an incredibly fortunate position of being able to replace one of the best keepers in Europe, with another top keeper.
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Butland
Jan 13, 2014 12:23:51 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2014 12:23:51 GMT
Blimey, you've just assassinated the lad there! Nice. Not meant as an assassination, more an honest assessment of his ability at present. Were Begovic in goal today, the second goal wouldn't have happened, he would have made the 4th harder and the 5th he would have taken before Sturridge even got the chance. Shawcross was so desperate to protect him and Butland needed to read the riot act and inspire confidence. He didn't and he doesn't have the presence to do so. He's 20, its to be expected but he has much to learn and we aren't good enough to let him learn on the job. Individual errors and another shit ref have cost us big time today and for me, Butland was as culpable as anyone for the shambles at the back. Nonsense.
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Butland
Jan 13, 2014 12:27:00 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2014 12:27:00 GMT
Not really. Butland should have cleaned everything out on that 2nd goal. Ryan, in countless of those situations, always runs in behind the keeper. Today he didn't and he cleared unnecessarily at least 3 times. He had dived on the penalty before the ball had even been struck just as he did v Everton. He was also lucky not to give a penalty away when he came and flapped and succeeded only in punching Suarez in the face, though for that alone, he deserves enormous credit. Tommy to start at Palace for me next week. Don't most keepers go a bit early on penos? Just got to get lucky and pick the right side. Think you've been spoiled with Sorros penalty saving heroics. Using Daves logic, keepers should move only after the ball's been kicked. Wow.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2014 12:29:07 GMT
First one no chance and sheer fluke, second was part of a wider comedy of errors with others involved, third one the peno, fourth one I don't think Bego would have stopped and the fifth very unlucky.....he slipped getting back to his feet or he would have been all over Sturridge and smothered it. Overall I think he did ok today and despite shipping five it will hopefully give him a bit of a boost. Agreed a fair reflection of the goals, he did well and the save from Sturridge was a fine effort pity he slipped.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Jan 13, 2014 13:04:46 GMT
Don't most keepers go a bit early on penos? Just got to get lucky and pick the right side. Think you've been spoiled with Sorros penalty saving heroics. Using Daves logic, keepers should move only after the ball's been kicked. Wow. My logic is that a goalkeeper should stand as tall as possible for as long as possible before commiting himself as it is that quality which can force a penalty taker to change his mind. I didn't expect Butland to save the penalty but he clearly went way too early both yesterday and v Everton. He made it easy for the penalty taker as he moved so early. Jesus wept...It is constructive observation. The lad is 20 years old and if he was the finished article already, he wouldn't be with us. He has much to learn and I don't think we are in a position, yet, to have him learning on the job. I hadn't seen replays of the incident when I made my original comments and having done so, I may have been a tad harsh on him for their 2nd goal as neither Wilson nor Ryan covered themselves in glory. That said, I stand by my comments subsequently, that Ryan made a move that were Begovic in goal, he wouldn't have done. Watch him. In that situation, Ryan would always let Begovic deal with it and move in behind him to clear away from danger. He's done it countless times. Yesterday, I felt we were too keen to protect Butland. We cleared 3 balls out of his hands, presumably because he didn't communicate or because they didnt' trust his call and really, Butland had to be bollocking them and getting them to trust him. He didn't and chaos ensued.
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Butland
Jan 13, 2014 13:08:29 GMT
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Post by werrington on Jan 13, 2014 13:08:29 GMT
Davejonno
Mate I agree with 99% of what you post on here but you are so so wrong with this one
He was at fault for none of those goals yesterday as was horrendously shafted by his defence
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Post by davejohnno1 on Jan 13, 2014 13:23:36 GMT
Davejonno Mate I agree with 99% of what you post on here but you are so so wrong with this one He was at fault for none of those goals yesterday as was horrendously shafted by his defence I am not saying he was at fault per se though Wezza. As Mystical posted further up it was a bit like Begovic at Chelsea in our 7-0. He wasn't really culpable for the goals but you left with the impression that had Tommy been fit and present, we wouldn't have conceded some of them. I had that feeling yesterday. Had Begovic been playing, I don't think the 2nd goal or the 5th goal would have happened and I also think he may well have closed down the space to make Suarez's fine finish more difficult than he made it look. I appreciate that it seems like I'm knocking him but I'm not, honestly. Given that most seem to acknowledge how well we have been playing, it is a tad worrying to find ourselves only 4 points off the bottom 3 with games to come away against Crystal Palace and Sunderland, together with a home game v Manure (who we always lose against). It is my belief that we need as much experience in our team as is possible, particularly in a position as important as our Goalkeeper. Butland isn't ready!
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Butland
Jan 13, 2014 13:26:55 GMT
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Post by werrington on Jan 13, 2014 13:26:55 GMT
Davejonno Mate I agree with 99% of what you post on here but you are so so wrong with this one He was at fault for none of those goals yesterday as was horrendously shafted by his defence I am not saying he was at fault per se though Wezza. As Mystical posted further up it was a bit like Begovic at Chelsea in our 7-0. He wasn't really culpable for the goals but you left with the impression that had Tommy been fit and present, we wouldn't have conceded some of them. I had that feeling yesterday. Had Begovic been playing, I don't think the 2nd goal or the 5th goal would have happened and I also think he may well have closed down the space to make Suarez's fine finish more difficult than he made it look. I appreciate that it seems like I'm knocking him but I'm not, honestly. Given that most seem to acknowledge how well we have been playing, it is a tad worrying to find ourselves only 4 points off the bottom 3 with games to come away against Crystal Palace and Sunderland, together with a home game v Manure (who we always lose against). It is my belief that we need as much experience in our team as is possible, particularly in a position as important as our Goalkeeper. Butland isn't ready! He's the best alternative to Begovic though mate Sorenson is finished and I doubt he'll start another game in the premiership
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