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Post by rogerjonesisgod on Dec 5, 2013 22:02:23 GMT
You don't see how a player coming from a nation ranked 14th to a nation ranked 13th couldn't fulfil the FA guidelines of "will make a significant contribution to the development of their sport.” [in the proposed country] ?? If the nations involved are of 'equal' standing how can the player "make a significant contribution"? If he's a player of equal standing to our international players then of course he's going to help develop the game because by that logic he's in the top 1% of players in the world (certainly England), how can't that help develop the game? It's complete bollocks of course but the whole process and rules that come along with it are complete bollocks. At the moment FIFA (rankings) says the UK and the US teams are equal(ish) but Agudelo hasn't even featured for the US team anyway! Also, if you read the article I posted there is also the fact that some US 'imports' have delivered less than "a significant contribution" to English football; "And while American players like Howard, Cameron, and Guzan are showing well for their teams, it would be reasonable for the appeals panel to consider its past decisions on American players’ appeals and those players’ subsequent performance on the field. The more recent struggles of Bedoya, Findley, Ream, Shea and Rogers in the U.K. may have served as cautionary tales". Anyway, how do you get that the England players are in the top 1% of players in the world???
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Post by bayernoatcake on Dec 5, 2013 22:07:16 GMT
If he's a player of equal standing to our international players then of course he's going to help develop the game because by that logic he's in the top 1% of players in the world (certainly England), how can't that help develop the game? It's complete bollocks of course but the whole process and rules that come along with it are complete bollocks. At the moment FIFA (rankings) says the UK and the US teams are equal(ish) but Agudelo hasn't even featured for the US team anyway! Also, if you read the article I posted there is also the fact that some US 'imports' have delivered less than "a significant contribution" to English football; "And while American players like Howard, Cameron, and Guzan are showing well for their teams, it would be reasonable for the appeals panel to consider its past decisions on American players’ appeals and those players’ subsequent performance on the field. The more recent struggles of Bedoya, Findley, Ream, Shea and Rogers in the U.K. may have served as cautionary tales". Anyway, how do you get that the England players are in the top 1% of players in the world??? He's still got 17 US caps well before his 20th Birthday, if that was an Englishman he'd be declared the new Matthews and be the highest touted kid around. That's of course basing it on rank for rank (which is just shite as I've said). The second point I agree with to an extent but judging one individual on others and not that individual doesn't sit well with me.
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Dec 6, 2013 11:40:09 GMT
He's at the training ground again today, apparently. Maybe we want to see him in training with our squad before we commit to signing him and sending him out on loan to a European club?
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Post by jimmygscfc1234 on Dec 6, 2013 12:34:59 GMT
He's at the training ground again today, apparently. Maybe we want to see him in training with our squad before we commit to signing him and sending him out on loan to a European club? So we're only going to take a look at him now then John? Surely the decision to sign him was taken ages ago?
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Post by mailman44 on Dec 6, 2013 15:11:34 GMT
You have to think that the fact that he is at Clayton Wood for a prolonged period is a good sign this deal is not done.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2013 15:15:52 GMT
You have to think that the fact that he is at Clayton Wood for a prolonged period is a good sign this deal is not done. doesn't really mean anything though...at the end of the day it's the panel that have the final say,we can tell agudelo we're still trying so ask him to stay in the UK all we want but we have no power or influence at all. basically all it shows is that we may try to re-appeal (although despite the whole 3 months thing being bandied about i thought that at the hearing they actually said there was no opportunity to re-appeal at the same time they said they wouldn't give the reason for declining the appeal?)
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Post by baltipiesmuggler on Dec 6, 2013 15:20:44 GMT
All well and good, but frankly I'm struggling to get enthuised about any player that can't play for us immediately.
Not an area we should be focussing our time on - if he's quick to make a decision the fine, but if he wants to string it out, give up and move on IMO.
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Post by wembley4372 on Dec 6, 2013 15:23:41 GMT
Can he play if we don't pay him?
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Post by Gary Hackett on Dec 6, 2013 16:28:41 GMT
Whatever happens with him he's no going to be able to play for Stoke within the next 2 years so I wouldn't waste another minute on him, we have more pressing issues right now.
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Dec 6, 2013 17:23:56 GMT
Can he play if we don't pay him? No. If we played him without paying him he would still be (under the rules) taking a job which could be done by an English player. AND we'd also be prosecuted for failing to pay the minimum wage!
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Post by MarkWolstanton on Dec 6, 2013 19:50:26 GMT
According to SL&P and FB They reckon he is at Clayton Woods today, Stoke trying to talk him into waiting for us, we can apparently re-apply for a permit 3 months after an unsuccessful one Could be BS, but our dire need for any sort of up front magic means I am suckered in :-) Were any Newcastle Town players in the vicinity?
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Post by Fred Ferret on Dec 6, 2013 22:30:09 GMT
According to SL&P and FB They reckon he is at Clayton Woods today, Stoke trying to talk him into waiting for us, we can apparently re-apply for a permit 3 months after an unsuccessful one Could be BS, but our dire need for any sort of up front magic means I am suckered in :-) Were any Newcastle Town players in the vicinity? No, just some guy called Guidetti.
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Post by wembley4372 on Dec 6, 2013 22:47:49 GMT
Can he play if we don't pay him? No. If we played him without paying him he would still be (under the rules) taking a job which could be done by an English player. AND we'd also be prosecuted for failing to pay the minimum wage! Can't he be considered an amateur if we aren't paying him? Can you play an amateur?
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Dec 6, 2013 22:58:08 GMT
No. If we played him without paying him he would still be (under the rules) taking a job which could be done by an English player. AND we'd also be prosecuted for failing to pay the minimum wage! Can't he be considered an amateur if we aren't paying him? Can you play an amateur? You'd better ask the Border Agency. My understanding is that of you are refused a work permit you can't WORK in the UK. And if you are putting the hours in doing the same thing as people who are working and being paid for it then you are working whether you are paid or not. So, as I understand it, Agudelo can train with us but he can't set foot on the pitch in a competitive match for which the other players are paid. Whether he is paid or not is irrelevant.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Dec 7, 2013 9:36:02 GMT
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Post by bayernoatcake on Dec 10, 2013 15:43:43 GMT
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Post by Clem Fandango on Dec 10, 2013 16:01:05 GMT
So it should really I'm sure anybody outside of the top 6 will be annoyed as no doubt a few have their sights set on targets which dont meet the criteria.
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Post by madpotter on Dec 10, 2013 16:27:41 GMT
if Valencia want him badly, why don't we sign him as we were meant to on a long term contract and loan him out to them for 6 months? everybody wins?
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Post by bayernoatcake on Dec 10, 2013 16:30:13 GMT
If Valencia want him badly, whoever sat on that FA panel need shooting.
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Post by metalhead on Dec 10, 2013 16:38:17 GMT
This is just typical of the FA though, if it was Chelsea, this guy would have already had his bags packed and have signed. They wanted to make an example, and they chose Stoke... no surprises there.
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Post by Jamo on the wing on Dec 10, 2013 16:46:36 GMT
Where there's life there's hope and it certainly appears the club are very keen to get him on board....
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2013 16:48:25 GMT
if Valencia want him badly, why don't we sign him as we were meant to on a long term contract and loan him out to them for 6 months? everybody wins? If Valencia really do want him then he would have no interest in coming to Stoke in the first place.
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Post by slother on Dec 10, 2013 20:35:59 GMT
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frumpy
Youth Player
Posts: 324
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Post by frumpy on Dec 10, 2013 22:14:46 GMT
If Valencia want him badly, whoever sat on that FA panel need shooting. Valencia, Atletico, Schalke, West Ham, Stuttgart and Celtic have all been after him at one point or another, some more than others. MLS' way of doing business complicated things as the league office was able to reject all interest whether or not his previous clubs and his agent were interested in other offers, and after moving on from NYRB, NYRB did come out and say Agudelo was getting offers from big Euro clubs who MLS basically told to piss off. But bigger clubs have been tracking Juan for the better part of three years. The FA panel really is screwing up with this decision. This isn't a guy who had few option and Stoke were just taking a flier on him, hoping for the best. This is a kid who bigger clubs than Stoke have made offers too. If he's good enough for Valencia/Celtic/Schalke among others, how is he not good enough for Stoke? But that isn't the issue, the FA panel seems intent on cutting off foreign talent which will lower the quality on the pitch for clubs outside the top 4-6 as they're the ones who can and will pay the fees for the proven stars who qualify for WP's under the tighter rules. Many prospects and guys who haven't yet broken out but will in a few years now are off limits to most PL clubs, and they'll likely go to Germany instead due to their more relaxed rules on foreigners. By these new, tighter rules, Cameron would have been off limits to Stoke and other PL clubs when he was signed. He was barely part of our NT when Stoke signed him. Imagine Stoke without Cameron now. Not the best player but he's proven to be very valuable. Cutting off that type of player from Stoke and other mid-lower table clubs will lead to a talent drain. There's only so many spots on a NT. Only around 15-18 guys will really be regulars and satisfy the 75% rule. With countries which are improving, whether the USA, Japan, South Korea, or the stacked NT's through out South America/Africa, there's going to be a growing number of very good players/prospects who simply aren't able to get consistent NT minutes due to the sheer number of roster spots. The panel basically cut off the #2 and #3 talents at any given position on various NT's simply because they don't appear in 75% of their country's matches. These countries, especially in the next 5-10 years will have very good players outside the top 15-18 or so who'll meet the WP requirements. Basically, the FA panel just limited PL clubs to only the top 15-18 players for any non-EU country, erasing the opportunity to go after all but the most exceptional of prospects. It should be the reverse, find an easier way to get the #2 and #3 players into the league. They're going to go somewhere after all, and the Bundesliga looks like the league most likely to take advantage.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2013 0:10:19 GMT
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Dec 11, 2013 6:56:48 GMT
Both the Agudelo and de Jong stories are essentially repeating what has already been on other websites and in other papers including the Sentinel. Each seems to put a different slant on the same story where Agudelo is concerned, with some being positive and others negative. We'll soon know the answer on or soon after Jan 1st.
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Post by Jimm on Dec 11, 2013 8:36:40 GMT
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Post by stokeramblers on Dec 11, 2013 8:38:45 GMT
Charm offensive is in full flow. If it is a goer then one of Jones/Crouch must be leaving surely..?
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Post by jeycov on Dec 11, 2013 8:41:17 GMT
BBC Text today, reporting that we are after him
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Post by Jimm on Dec 11, 2013 8:41:26 GMT
It would make sense if Jones was to go as he's in the last months on his contract but is Crouchie going to want to sit on the bench for the rest of the season
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