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Post by partickpotter on Jan 6, 2014 21:59:32 GMT
There is nothing wrong with coaches working with bowlers on their actions to improve their bowling performance. What you need though are effective coaches and receptive bowlers - when you get this, results can be awesome. We should know, we've been on the receiving end of this over the past few weeks. The following extract taken from a "Roar" article, Which Mitch will we see for the rest of the Ashes series? published after the first test in Brisbane illustrates this point.
Mitchell Johnson has attempted to rectify this issue, working closely with Terry Alderman and reworking his bowling action to reduce the amount side-arm action, thus bringing his arm more above his head. To ensure no pace was lost, Johnson lengthened his run-up. This has proven to be successful as he is now bowling faster than ever before. This new action has been claimed as the catalyst for that devastating series against Sri Lanka and strong performance in the first Test in Brisbane last week.
Watching Stokes bowl he does need some coaching - his last 3 or 4 strides are a mess. Get that right and he could add another 3 or 4 mph to his bowling. Indeed but our coaches if Finn is anything to go by aren't to be trusted. I've no idea where the fault lies - maybe it's the coach, maybe the player. But Mitchell Johnson's astonishing turn around from humiliation in 2011/12 to glory in 2013/14 should give our players and coaching staff food for thought.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jan 6, 2014 22:08:56 GMT
Indeed but our coaches if Finn is anything to go by aren't to be trusted. I've no idea where the fault lies - maybe it's the coach, maybe the player. But Mitchell Johnson's astonishing turn around from humiliation in 2011/12 to glory in 2013/14 should give our players and coaching staff food for thought. He went from taking wickets and hitting the stumps on delivery to now an alleged quivering wreck who has no confidence after being tinkered with when it wasn't necessarily needed. Maybe it is Finn but by Christ I don't think they've helped.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2014 22:13:03 GMT
I always feel it is best to look at a player!s natural attributes and go from there , too many coaches over the years have tried to make everybody play in the same manner with the same text book techniques .....it works with some players , with others they just lose all their natural talent and they are spoiled .....you should work with what you have got and improve matters , not try and manufacture a different player quite right!! Where would Mike Procter or Lasith Malinga be if the coaches had got hold of they're action, I ask myself? Indeed two very good examples ......Max Walker of Australia was another who bowled off "the wrong foot "
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2014 22:20:32 GMT
Indeed but our coaches if Finn is anything to go by aren't to be trusted. I've no idea where the fault lies - maybe it's the coach, maybe the player. But Mitchell Johnson's astonishing turn around from humiliation in 2011/12 to glory in 2013/14 should give our players and coaching staff food for thought. I believe that Mitchell Johnson has been under the guidance of the Great Dennis Lillee.......and it shows He used to fall away considerably during delivery , he's now standing up more thus keeping his arm higher and allowing him to bowl straighter
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Post by apb1979 on Jan 7, 2014 13:29:41 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2014 13:54:07 GMT
That would come as no surprise to me at all.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jan 7, 2014 14:22:57 GMT
It would be no surprise but I also wouldn't find it if it was the press shit stirring. They've been gunning for KP relentlessly and some of it has been bordering on racism.
Interestingly (imo anyway) on the BBC website, Vaughan and Harmison (who You'd both imagine would still have contacts within the England dressing room) want him playing.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2014 14:36:51 GMT
It would be no surprise but I also wouldn't find it if it was the press shit stirring. They've been gunning for KP relentlessly and some of it has been bordering on racism. Interestingly (imo anyway) on the BBC website, Vaughan and Harmison (who You'd both imagine would still have contacts within the England dressing room) want him playing. Only time will tell mate
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Post by partickpotter on Jan 7, 2014 23:25:52 GMT
Some "pros" give their views on who should be in the next England Test 11 here. Quite consistent with thoughts expressed on this thread - certainly nothing better. Hope Phil Tufnell is never made a selector though.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2014 23:33:56 GMT
Some "pros" give their views on who should be in the next England Test 11 here. Quite consistent with thoughts expressed on this thread - certainly nothing better. Hope Phil Tufnell is never made a selector though. I think we can all relax sound in the knowledge that Tuffers will never be a selector mate ....( we hope )
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2014 17:59:55 GMT
Bob Willis today stated on SSN that he believed KP to be a devising influence within the dressing room and has been so in every dressing room he has been a part of .....to quote him England should " kick him out " interesting ? Willis is never one to mince his words that's for sure
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jan 8, 2014 18:03:12 GMT
He's about the first ex-pro that wants Flower over KP. I aren't sure. But I do think losing Flower will hurt us less than losing KP. Part of me is saying to fuck both of the cunts off.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2014 18:50:07 GMT
He's about the first ex-pro that wants Flower over KP. I aren't sure. But I do think losing Flower will hurt us less than losing KP. Part of me is saying to fuck both of the cunts off. I'm not sure , Flower has always seemed a pretty sound guy to me , whereas KP definitely fits your description !
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jan 8, 2014 18:51:40 GMT
He's about the first ex-pro that wants Flower over KP. I aren't sure. But I do think losing Flower will hurt us less than losing KP. Part of me is saying to fuck both of the cunts off. I'm not sure , Flower has always seemed a pretty sound guy to me , whereas KP definitely fits your description ! He does but maybe it is the correct time for a change? He doesn't fill me with confidence for the fight ahead.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2014 18:55:37 GMT
I'm not sure , Flower has always seemed a pretty sound guy to me , whereas KP definitely fits your description ! He does but maybe it is the correct time for a change? He doesn't fill me with confidence for the fight ahead. Well if they can both work together ( I have my doubts now ) they should both be allowed to carry on in the short term...but no player is bigger than the team no matter how good he is
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jan 8, 2014 21:03:29 GMT
He does but maybe it is the correct time for a change? He doesn't fill me with confidence for the fight ahead. Well if they can both work together ( I have my doubts now ) they should both be allowed to carry on in the short term...but no player is bigger than the team no matter how good he is That I agree with but is that the case? None of us know and can only summise. It seems to me at least that there's a fight here who thinks they're top dog. And I don't think either of them actually have that right. Of course the coach is to be respected but this is going down a route of what appears to be a bitch fight essentially. It just seems a bit pathetic to me.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2014 23:20:37 GMT
Well if they can both work together ( I have my doubts now ) they should both be allowed to carry on in the short term...but no player is bigger than the team no matter how good he is That I agree with but is that the case? None of us know and can only summise. It seems to me at least that there's a fight here who thinks they're top dog. And I don't think either of them actually have that right. Of course the coach is to be respected but this is going down a route of what appears to be a bitch fight essentially. It just seems a bit pathetic to me. Of course it's only supposition on our part ....but the coach is in charge , he sets the criteria for the way the team ethic is applied ...if players don't feel that they are happy with that ....they should refrain from being part of the system .....they aren't doing England a favour by playing for them ...the honour should be theirs to be selected . ...he does have a history of being anti establishment and also a history of non conformism .....a bitch fight does not come into it ....he toes the team line or he does not feature ...end of ....pathetic or not .....there is only one top dog ( perhaps two ) the Captain and the coach
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jan 8, 2014 23:22:41 GMT
That I agree with but is that the case? None of us know and can only summise. It seems to me at least that there's a fight here who thinks they're top dog. And I don't think either of them actually have that right. Of course the coach is to be respected but this is going down a route of what appears to be a bitch fight essentially. It just seems a bit pathetic to me. Of course it's only supposition on our part ....but the coach is in charge , he sets the criteria for the way the team ethic is applied ...if players don't feel that they are happy with that ....they should refrain from being part of the system .....they aren't doing England a favour by playing for them ...the honour should be theirs to be selected . ...he does have a history of being anti establishment and also a history of non conformism .....a bitch fight does not come into it ....he toes the team line or he does not feature ...end of ....pathetic or not .....there is only one top dog ( perhaps two ) the Captain and the coach If the coach and captain aren't up to the job though....... I'm pretty sure the captain isn't. I don't know what to think about Flower tbh.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2014 23:40:11 GMT
Of course it's only supposition on our part ....but the coach is in charge , he sets the criteria for the way the team ethic is applied ...if players don't feel that they are happy with that ....they should refrain from being part of the system .....they aren't doing England a favour by playing for them ...the honour should be theirs to be selected . ...he does have a history of being anti establishment and also a history of non conformism .....a bitch fight does not come into it ....he toes the team line or he does not feature ...end of ....pathetic or not .....there is only one top dog ( perhaps two ) the Captain and the coach If the coach and captain aren't up to the job though....... I'm pretty sure the captain isn't. I don't know what to think about Flower tbh. Well if you can provide a better option than Cook I'm all ears ....?Flower is a good coach ....obviously he carries the can for the results ....but we are talking about some pretty high regarded Test Cricketers who have represented England in this series ...is he responsible for nursemaiding their performances on the field ? I think not ...he is a manager really rather than a coach ...it's up to the players to put things right ....he can only oversee so much ....it must be applied on the field
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jan 8, 2014 23:44:33 GMT
If the coach and captain aren't up to the job though....... I'm pretty sure the captain isn't. I don't know what to think about Flower tbh. Well if you can provide a better option than Cook I'm all ears ....?Flower is a good coach ....obviously he carries the can for the results ....but we are talking about some pretty high regarded Test Cricketers who have represented England in this series ...is he responsible for nursemaiding their performances on the field ? I think not ...he is a manager really rather than a coach ...it's up to the players to put things right ....he can only oversee so much ....it must be applied on the field I can't as I've previously said on this thread, that's the only reason that he keeps the captaincy for me. I think part of the problem is that they are too mollycoddled by the whole England system and that includes Flower. They seem to have been in this bubble of superiority and it's well and truly been burst and now we have the two biggest potential casualties scrapping it out to save themselves. That's why I'd be tempted to bin the pair of them.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2014 23:52:50 GMT
Well if you can provide a better option than Cook I'm all ears ....?Flower is a good coach ....obviously he carries the can for the results ....but we are talking about some pretty high regarded Test Cricketers who have represented England in this series ...is he responsible for nursemaiding their performances on the field ? I think not ...he is a manager really rather than a coach ...it's up to the players to put things right ....he can only oversee so much ....it must be applied on the field I can't as I've previously said on this thread, that's the only reason that he keeps the captaincy for me. I think part of the problem is that they are too mollycoddled by the whole England system and that includes Flower. They seem to have been in this bubble of superiority and it's well and truly been burst and now we have the two biggest potential casualties scrapping it out to save themselves. That's why I'd be tempted to bin the pair of them. In all honesty I wouldn't disagree with you ......at this level do you really need a coach to oversee the top players ? People like Cook and KP and Bell who all have over 20 centuries at this level to their name ...and Broad with 200 test wickets and Anderson with over 300 ? ...In the old days the Captain ran the team ...how do they benefit from coaching at that level ? .....a better management structure is what is needed off the field , I think
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jan 8, 2014 23:57:31 GMT
I can't as I've previously said on this thread, that's the only reason that he keeps the captaincy for me. I think part of the problem is that they are too mollycoddled by the whole England system and that includes Flower. They seem to have been in this bubble of superiority and it's well and truly been burst and now we have the two biggest potential casualties scrapping it out to save themselves. That's why I'd be tempted to bin the pair of them. In all honesty I wouldn't disagree with you ......at this level do you really need a coach to oversee the top players ? People like Cook and KP and Bell who all have over 20 centuries at this level to their name ...and Broad with 200 test wickets and Anderson with over 300 ? ...In the old days the Captain ran the team ...how do they benefit from coaching at that level ? .....a better management structure is what is needed off the field , I think I think it depends on the bloke in charge. Just look at the good Lehmann has done for this Aussie side. They're no great shakes really, we know that but he's instilled a belief and a mentality in them that has made a difference. Now of course having a bowler like Johnson absolutely helps but they've gone from a squad who to a man hated their captain allegedly to one who've just murdered their biggest rivals 5-0 and are like a pig in shit with their happiness. It's a hard one to judge for so many reasons.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2014 0:01:39 GMT
In all honesty I wouldn't disagree with you ......at this level do you really need a coach to oversee the top players ? People like Cook and KP and Bell who all have over 20 centuries at this level to their name ...and Broad with 200 test wickets and Anderson with over 300 ? ...In the old days the Captain ran the team ...how do they benefit from coaching at that level ? .....a better management structure is what is needed off the field , I think I think it depends on the bloke in charge. Just look at the good Lehmann has done for this Aussie side. They're no great shakes really, we know that but he's instilled a belief and a mentality in them that has made a difference. Now of course having a bowler like Johnson absolutely helps but they've gone from a squad who to a man hated their captain allegedly to one who've just murdered their biggest rivals 5-0 and are like a pig in shit with their happiness. It's a hard one to judge for so many reasons. Well that's what I'm getting at really ...Lehman hasn't brought anything new in to their system from a coaching perspective ...but from a man management angle he appears to have made a big difference ...management appears to be the essence of the matter I feel
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jan 9, 2014 0:07:16 GMT
I think it depends on the bloke in charge. Just look at the good Lehmann has done for this Aussie side. They're no great shakes really, we know that but he's instilled a belief and a mentality in them that has made a difference. Now of course having a bowler like Johnson absolutely helps but they've gone from a squad who to a man hated their captain allegedly to one who've just murdered their biggest rivals 5-0 and are like a pig in shit with their happiness. It's a hard one to judge for so many reasons. Well that's what I'm getting at really ...Lehman hasn't brought anything new in to their system from a coaching perspective ...but from a man management angle he appears to have made a big difference ...management appears to be the essence of the matter I feel Yup, sorry! Maybe it is time to get him gone then? I have no idea, I always believe people deserve second chances mind. But like You said with Cook's captaincy (ie it won't change because that's who he is) can Flower change his demeanour and ethos and if he can will he be happy with that?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2014 0:13:02 GMT
Well that's what I'm getting at really ...Lehman hasn't brought anything new in to their system from a coaching perspective ...but from a man management angle he appears to have made a big difference ...management appears to be the essence of the matter I feel Yup, sorry! Maybe it is time to get him gone then? I have no idea, I always believe people deserve second chances mind. But like You said with Cook's captaincy (ie it won't change because that's who he is) can Flower change his demeanour and ethos and if he can will he be happy with that? I have no doubt that Flower will not change his ethos .....how can he ? He is what he is ....if you want a change of ethos you would have to change the man ....I can't imagine who I would consider in his place ...I certainly am not a fan of Ashley Giles who being one day coach would be the favourite to take over from Flower Over to you ?
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jan 9, 2014 0:23:16 GMT
Yup, sorry! Maybe it is time to get him gone then? I have no idea, I always believe people deserve second chances mind. But like You said with Cook's captaincy (ie it won't change because that's who he is) can Flower change his demeanour and ethos and if he can will he be happy with that? I have no doubt that Flower will not change his ethos .....how can he ? He is what he is ....if you want a change of ethos you would have to change the man ....I can't imagine who I would consider in his place ...I certainly am not a fan of Ashley Giles who being one day coach would be the favourite to take over from Flower Over to you ? That's what I mean, it's tough and he won't change but he probably needs to. I agree with Giles, his rise through the ranks has been astonishing, God and only knows why. It's a right quandry we're in. Gary Kirsten would be the best bet but he's signed up to be an IPL coach for three years, would he come here?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2014 11:40:57 GMT
I have no doubt that Flower will not change his ethos .....how can he ? He is what he is ....if you want a change of ethos you would have to change the man ....I can't imagine who I would consider in his place ...I certainly am not a fan of Ashley Giles who being one day coach would be the favourite to take over from Flower Over to you ? That's what I mean, it's tough and he won't change but he probably needs to. I agree with Giles, his rise through the ranks has been astonishing, God and only knows why. It's a right quandry we're in. Gary Kirsten would be the best bet but he's signed up to be an IPL coach for three years, would he come here? As you say he is signed up to IPL .....I am sure he would take on the England job if it was on offer and he was free to.....anybody would I think , it's the biggest job of its type in Cricket
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2014 22:26:08 GMT
Most of the top coaches are tied up with IPL contracts but as you say it would be a massive job. John Wright has a decent pedigree and knows the English game inside out, think he's with the Mumbai Indians at the moment I think I read?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2014 22:56:02 GMT
Most of the top coaches are tied up with IPL contracts but as you say it would be a massive job. John Wright has a decent pedigree and knows the English game inside out, think he's with the Mumbai Indians at the moment I think I read? John Wright would be an interesting choice ? I can think of plenty of worse appointments than him .
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jan 12, 2014 12:59:21 GMT
So we lost the first ODI. When I put the BBC cricket page on and it said we were thrashed I was expecting a bit more of a battering really. And then when You see the bowling attack we have, they haven't done too badly!
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