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Post by salopstick on Jan 5, 2014 8:06:30 GMT
Cook has to go as does flowers.
The team look stale and have stagnated after their successes a fresh input is needed.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jan 5, 2014 11:58:29 GMT
Well played to Stokes and Broad for the series, they're the only two who can come out of it with any credit. Well done to the Aussies, yer twats!  And I'd like to see a new captain with Cook just in as opener but who is there? Who would You want captaining out of that lot? |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2014 12:01:12 GMT
What a shower of shite, this is the most embarrassing defeats in the history of the Ashes. We were thrashed on every day of every match. A farce and ruthless decisions need to be made.
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Post by jonah77 on Jan 5, 2014 13:02:19 GMT
What a shower of shite, this is the most embarrassing defeats in the history of the Ashes. We were thrashed on every day of every match. A farce and ruthless decisions need to be made. I'm so glad I don't know any aussies. |
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Post by partickpotter on Jan 5, 2014 13:03:08 GMT
What a shower of shite, this is the most embarrassing defeats in the history of the Ashes. We were thrashed on every day of every match. A farce and ruthless decisions need to be made. In fairness it was evens after day 1 at the Gabba and we had the best of day 2 at the MCG. But otherwise Aussie comprehensively won every other day. Just awful from England. Six times in 10 innings we failed to pass 200! In four out of 5 first Australian innings their last 5 wickets outscored their first 5. Time after time the problems kept repeating; we couldn't score runs and we couldn't bowl out their tail. Ruthless decisions are indeed needed. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2014 13:47:10 GMT
It pains me to say it , but it's the worst performance I've ever seen in a series involving an England team ......just about everything that can be said has been said , I've nothing more to add.....just massively disappointed is perhaps an understatement  |
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Post by Staffsoatcake on Jan 5, 2014 18:55:33 GMT
Keep this lot v Sri Lanka,if they don't improve,get rid and start from scratch.
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Post by iglugluk on Jan 5, 2014 19:05:19 GMT
We were totally crap virtually every day in every match. Let's face it it was very possible that we would lose in Aus. since last summers series. We have been on the down turn for a while and it's finally caught up with us ( bringing in a 30 something opener says it all really regarding strength in depth of English cricket right now as far as I am concerned ). However the nature of the defeat is hard to stomach, gutless , disorganised and no team work.........The sudden Swann retirement is still something I'd like to know more about too, tbh, it doesn't speak of a unified team let's face it.
Personally I have disliked the team ethic for quite a while under Cook, they're arrogant, defensive and refuse to take any personal responsibility as far as I can tell. Cook talks like a mealy mouthed politician and seems to emulate Blair/Cameron style interview techniques which I find unpleasant to watch and listen to personally.
A very different approach is required indeed .
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Post by SneydGreenStokie on Jan 5, 2014 20:17:43 GMT
Jesus Christ. How clueless are most of you?
Ruthless decision?
Sack Flowers (It's FLOWER btw) and Cook?
Drop the bowlers?
And do what? Replace them with who !England need to look at their performances. Yes. But wholesale changes? Crazy. A spell playing county cricket to get back playing regularly. Then, pick the players that are playing well. They dont become bad players overnight. Cook has won 4/5 tests, including the notoriously difficult India. We are guilty of being slack and underestimating Australia. However, wholesale changes is ludicrous. Look at what went wrong work on those areas of the game, including the mental aspect and get up and go again. The Aussies have been very good but also very very mouthy and cocky. I look forward to next summer when they have to come back. Let's see how mouthy he cretins like Warner, Clarke, Watson (If he makes it) and Bailey are then.
SGS
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Post by apb1979 on Jan 5, 2014 20:20:34 GMT
If we get rid of Flower I would bring in Geoff Cook who has done a brilliant job at Durham.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2014 20:41:23 GMT
Jesus Christ. How clueless are most of you? Ruthless decision? Sack Flowers (It's FLOWER btw) and Cook? Drop the bowlers? And do what? Replace them with who !England need to look at their performances. Yes. But wholesale changes? Crazy. A spell playing county cricket to get back playing regularly. Then, pick the players that are playing well. They dont become bad players overnight. Cook has won 4/5 tests, including the notoriously difficult India. We are guilty of being slack and underestimating Australia. However, wholesale changes is ludicrous. Look at what went wrong work on those areas of the game, including the mental aspect and get up and go again. The Aussies have been very good but also very very mouthy and cocky. I look forward to next summer when they have to come back. Let's see how mouthy he cretins like Warner, Clarke, Watson (If he makes it) and Bailey are then. SGS Andy Flower has done a marvelous job as coach, one bad series does not mean his services should be dispensed with.....he still has a lot to offer and he would be the best man still to put things right ......Cook may not be the most flamboyant of Captains but putting things into perspective he has done pretty well until this series .....he looks pretty shell shocked at the moment but I can't see an obvious replacement for him as Captain , if anyone can who would it be ? I think you still have to stick with the bulk of the side and let them repair the damage that has been inflicted .....wholesale droppings and sounding panic alerts can only do as much harm as good |
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Post by partickpotter on Jan 5, 2014 21:10:39 GMT
Jesus Christ. How clueless are most of you? Ruthless decision? Sack Flowers (It's FLOWER btw) and Cook? Drop the bowlers? And do what? Replace them with who !England need to look at their performances. Yes. But wholesale changes? Crazy. A spell playing county cricket to get back playing regularly. Then, pick the players that are playing well. They dont become bad players overnight. Cook has won 4/5 tests, including the notoriously difficult India. We are guilty of being slack and underestimating Australia. However, wholesale changes is ludicrous. Look at what went wrong work on those areas of the game, including the mental aspect and get up and go again. The Aussies have been very good but also very very mouthy and cocky. I look forward to next summer when they have to come back. Let's see how mouthy he cretins like Warner, Clarke, Watson (If he makes it) and Bailey are then. SGS Sacking Cook as captain is not outrageous. The win in India was superb, but since then he has been a lousy skipper; a dreadful highly fortunate draw in NZ followed by an insipid win in England against the same opposition before an in convincing 3-0 Ashes win led us up to the debacle down under. I'd give Broad a go at captain and let Cook go back to focussing on his batting. You're right about considering carefully what changes we do make - but there will be quite a few. We need another opening bat to open with Cook, a number 3, a number 6 (despite Stokes success on this tour he, at the moment, is no better than a number 8 for the next year or so), a wicket keeper batsman and a spinner. That's 6 spots up for grabs leaving just Cook, Bell, Pietersen, Broad and Anderson as the spine of the team and of them only one, Broad, can be satisfied with his performance. The good news is we do have good cricketers out there - just need to build carefully but also assertively. |
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jan 5, 2014 21:31:26 GMT
If there was an obvious candidate I'd get rid of Cook as captain in a flash. But there isn't imo.
The fast bowling unit need another strike bowler-Finn, so that's easy.
What happens with the batsmen is anyone's guess. Unless something major happens I think the same players will be given the chance against Sri Lanka and for now that's correct. I'd bring Prior back in too for now.
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Post by salopstick on Jan 5, 2014 21:53:10 GMT
It comes in cycles maybe fresh eyes is needed
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jan 5, 2014 23:33:39 GMT
They definitely are but I think too many isn't the answer.
Anderson and Broad are still two of our best bowlers.
KP, Cook and Bell are still three of our best batsmen despite what has happened in this series.
And Prior still is the best keeper-batsmen imo.
With Stokes in there, there's room for 4 more. That's plenty enough change for now on the playing side.
A seamer, a spinner, an opener and a middle order batsmen. Whoever they might be is anyone's guess.
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Post by partickpotter on Jan 6, 2014 12:06:03 GMT
If there was an obvious candidate I'd get rid of Cook as captain in a flash. But there isn't imo. The fast bowling unit need another strike bowler-Finn, so that's easy. What happens with the batsmen is anyone's guess. Unless something major happens I think the same players will be given the chance against Sri Lanka and for now that's correct. I'd bring Prior back in too for now. I'd give the captaincy to Broad. In fact I'd give it to him for the upcoming one day series and allow Cook, with the excuse of an injury, to get away from Australia. He looks frazzled; let him recharge his batteries and come back for the summer tests as an opening batsman without the distractions and headaches of captaincy. Not sure about Prior - if Butler does well in the upcoming one day series he puts himself into serious contention. The answer isn't Bairstow though. |
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jan 6, 2014 12:10:16 GMT
If there was an obvious candidate I'd get rid of Cook as captain in a flash. But there isn't imo. The fast bowling unit need another strike bowler-Finn, so that's easy. What happens with the batsmen is anyone's guess. Unless something major happens I think the same players will be given the chance against Sri Lanka and for now that's correct. I'd bring Prior back in too for now. I'd give the captaincy to Broad. In fact I'd give it to him for the upcoming one day series and allow Cook, with the excuse of an injury, to get away from Australia. He looks frazzled; let him recharge his batteries and come back for the summer tests as an opening batsman without the distractions and headaches of captaincy. Not sure about Prior - if Butler does well in the upcoming one day series he puts himself into serious contention. The answer isn't Bairstow though. I aren't sure about Broad as captain for a few reasons. Is he good enough tactically? I have no idea. And will it affect his performance? He's already a semi all-rounder (his batting average is better than I expected) will captaincy be just too much? Again I have no idea, I'm just thinking out loud. Getting Cook out of there isn't a bad idea though, we have enough people that can open in the one dayers for him to go. I don't get the current fuss over Butler. He's clearly a talented batsman when he gets into the groove but he just hasn't got any sort of consistency. |
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Post by iglugluk on Jan 6, 2014 18:51:20 GMT
County cricket is not in a particularly good way as far as I can tell so options are necessarily going to be limited for the selectors. Bayern says Finn is the missing strike bowler we need, but I'm not so sure, the speeds the current England bowlers attain will require Glenn McGrath type metronomic consistency in order for them to be World beaters , well that or very good swing conditions which they no doubt excel in on the whole. Anderson is still,I believe, by far the best we have.
I personally think we would massively benefit from a proper, aggressive fast bowler who can regularly bowl over 90mph and I cannot think of one at the moment, personally. It strikes me that Mitchell Johnson's rejuvenation has been the main difference between the 2 sides. A truly fast and aggressive fast bowler can lift a whole team...batsmen and all, when he is in cracking form. We do not currently have this option and I think this is a problem when confronted to the type of pitches we faced in Australia.
England, however, haven't turned into a crap ream overnight, and equally so, I doubt that Australia have raised their game as much as the Ashes series suggests, given how poor they've looked for a few series. I will be surprised if Australia look any where near as good in their next series against South Africa.
It seems obvious that in there is currently some sort of problem behind the scenes with the England camp ( witness Swann's sudden departure and the comments he made at the time ) and the management need to sort this out ASAP. Whether Flower has the ability to sort this is currently unclear, afterall, he's been in control for quite some time and obviously has been unable to sort whatever is going on in the dressing room thus far.
Time will tell I guess.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jan 6, 2014 18:57:17 GMT
Finn was fine until the coaches tried to sort his run up out. He's a wicket taker, even when he's bowling badly he takes wickets.
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Post by iglugluk on Jan 6, 2014 19:11:44 GMT
Finn was fine until the coaches tried to sort his run up out. He's a wicket taker, even when he's bowling badly he takes wickets. We still need a proper fast bowler and Finn isn't it, he's not fast and aggressive enough.. Finn has been around the team for quite a while and hasn't really cemented a place for himself. He needs more consistency so he can bowl to his full potential in conditions that don't exactly suit him, I reckon. He could then be a good foil for Anderson and Broad. |
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jan 6, 2014 19:18:58 GMT
Finn was fine until the coaches tried to sort his run up out. He's a wicket taker, even when he's bowling badly he takes wickets. We still need a proper fast bowler and Finn isn't it, he's not fast and aggressive enough.. Finn has been around the team for quite a while and hasn't really cemented a place for himself. He needs more consistency so he can bowl to his full potential in conditions that don't exactly suit him, I reckon. He could then be a good foil for Anderson and Broad. He's about the fastest we've got. No they've picked all manner of shit (Tremlett, Bresnan and Rankin) instead, he's much better than those three, it's been crazy that he hasn't played in this series imo. As You can probably tell, I really like him! |
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Post by iglugluk on Jan 6, 2014 19:30:17 GMT
We still need a proper fast bowler and Finn isn't it, he's not fast and aggressive enough.. Finn has been around the team for quite a while and hasn't really cemented a place for himself. He needs more consistency so he can bowl to his full potential in conditions that don't exactly suit him, I reckon. He could then be a good foil for Anderson and Broad. He's about the fastest we've got. No they've picked all manner of shit (Tremlett, Bresnan and Rankin) instead, he's much better than those three, it's been crazy that he hasn't played in this series imo. As You can probably tell, I really like him! I would agree with you regarding the strange decision by the selectors not to give him a chance at all in the recent ashes series.  I still think we need a proper fast bowler though, so hopefully one will come through in the next couple of seasons. There's something wrong behind the scenes with the English set-up right now and it's not just Pieterson and his obvious distance from the rest of the team. As a result of that issue, the sudden departure of Swann also leaves a massive quality hole to be filled. On another matter it would be good if the BBc or another terrestrial channel started to show some County cricket again ( I used to love watching it on Sundays back in the day ) that way the resulting exposure might re-invigorate the game over here once more. Surely the TV rights could be bought for a hill of beans seeing as they are not shown anywhere right now on a regular basis. Shit they televise darts and snooker , so why not cricket? |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2014 19:32:03 GMT
Finn was fine until the coaches tried to sort his run up out. He's a wicket taker, even when he's bowling badly he takes wickets. The coaches did the same with Anderson a few years ago and almost ruined him , it wasn't until he went back to his old style that he started bowl well consistently.....Finn is a good bowler who will be a regular in the side .....once they start to pick him that is |
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Post by iglugluk on Jan 6, 2014 19:38:07 GMT
Finn was fine until the coaches tried to sort his run up out. He's a wicket taker, even when he's bowling badly he takes wickets. The coaches did the same with Anderson a few years ago and almost ruined him , it wasn't until he went back to his old style that he started bowl well consistently.....Finn is a good bowler who will be a regular in the side .....once they start to pick him that is What is it with coaches and their tendency to fiddle with a bowlers action? Same thing was done to me when I played ( not saying I was a potential County player or anything though ) and I could never recover my form from that point on....I ask you  |
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jan 6, 2014 19:40:01 GMT
Finn was fine until the coaches tried to sort his run up out. He's a wicket taker, even when he's bowling badly he takes wickets. The coaches did the same with Anderson a few years ago and almost ruined him , it wasn't until he went back to his old style that he started bowl well consistently.....Finn is a good bowler who will be a regular in the side .....once they start to pick him that is I just hope they don't try to pass their "wisdom" on to Stokes. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2014 19:44:17 GMT
They definitely are but I think too many isn't the answer. Anderson and Broad are still two of our best bowlers. KP, Cook and Bell are still three of our best batsmen despite what has happened in this series. And Prior still is the best keeper-batsmen imo. With Stokes in there, there's room for 4 more. That's plenty enough change for now on the playing side. A seamer, a spinner, an opener and a middle order batsmen. Whoever they might be is anyone's guess. For several years now Prior (up until this last two series ) has been the most dependable of players .....he has played England out of many tight spots with fighting knocks .....there is no reason to suggest that after a six month break from Tests he cannot be the same player again , he is only 31 and it's far to early to talk about him being put out to grass , he deserves another opportunity in my opinion |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2014 19:53:01 GMT
The coaches did the same with Anderson a few years ago and almost ruined him , it wasn't until he went back to his old style that he started bowl well consistently.....Finn is a good bowler who will be a regular in the side .....once they start to pick him that is What is it with coaches and their tendency to fiddle with a bowlers action? Same thing was done to me when I played ( not saying I was a potential County player or anything though ) and I could never recover my form from that point on....I ask you I always feel it is best to look at a player!s natural attributes and go from there , too many coaches over the years have tried to make everybody play in the same manner with the same text book techniques .....it works with some players , with others they just lose all their natural talent and they are spoiled .....you should work with what you have got and improve matters , not try and manufacture a different player |
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Post by iglugluk on Jan 6, 2014 19:57:57 GMT
What is it with coaches and their tendency to fiddle with a bowlers action? Same thing was done to me when I played ( not saying I was a potential County player or anything though ) and I could never recover my form from that point on....I ask you I always feel it is best to look at a player!s natural attributes and go from there , too many coaches over the years have tried to make everybody play in the same manner with the same text book techniques .....it works with some players , with others they just lose all their natural talent and they are spoiled .....you should work with what you have got and improve matters , not try and manufacture a different player quite right!! Where would Mike Procter or Lasith Malinga be if the coaches had got hold of they're action, I ask myself? |
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Post by partickpotter on Jan 6, 2014 21:25:35 GMT
The coaches did the same with Anderson a few years ago and almost ruined him , it wasn't until he went back to his old style that he started bowl well consistently.....Finn is a good bowler who will be a regular in the side .....once they start to pick him that is I just hope they don't try to pass their "wisdom" on to Stokes. There is nothing wrong with coaches working with bowlers on their actions to improve their bowling performance. What you need though are effective coaches and receptive bowlers - when you get this, results can be awesome. We should know, we've been on the receiving end of this over the past few weeks. The following extract taken from a "Roar" article, Which Mitch will we see for the rest of the Ashes series? published after the first test in Brisbane illustrates this point.
Mitchell Johnson has attempted to rectify this issue, working closely with Terry Alderman and reworking his bowling action to reduce the amount side-arm action, thus bringing his arm more above his head. To ensure no pace was lost, Johnson lengthened his run-up. This has proven to be successful as he is now bowling faster than ever before. This new action has been claimed as the catalyst for that devastating series against Sri Lanka and strong performance in the first Test in Brisbane last week.
Watching Stokes bowl he does need some coaching - his last 3 or 4 strides are a mess. Get that right and he could add another 3 or 4 mph to his bowling. |
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jan 6, 2014 21:44:54 GMT
I just hope they don't try to pass their "wisdom" on to Stokes. There is nothing wrong with coaches working with bowlers on their actions to improve their bowling performance. What you need though are effective coaches and receptive bowlers - when you get this, results can be awesome. We should know, we've been on the receiving end of this over the past few weeks. The following extract taken from a "Roar" article, Which Mitch will we see for the rest of the Ashes series? published after the first test in Brisbane illustrates this point.
Mitchell Johnson has attempted to rectify this issue, working closely with Terry Alderman and reworking his bowling action to reduce the amount side-arm action, thus bringing his arm more above his head. To ensure no pace was lost, Johnson lengthened his run-up. This has proven to be successful as he is now bowling faster than ever before. This new action has been claimed as the catalyst for that devastating series against Sri Lanka and strong performance in the first Test in Brisbane last week.
Watching Stokes bowl he does need some coaching - his last 3 or 4 strides are a mess. Get that right and he could add another 3 or 4 mph to his bowling. Indeed but our coaches if Finn is anything to go by aren't to be trusted. |
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I still think we need a proper fast bowler though, so hopefully one will come through in the next couple of seasons. 
