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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2013 7:33:40 GMT
How is it stewarded in Germany?
I notice in the photo's that the rails have numbers, yet people say they can stand with their mates. How is it controlled as to how many people go on each row and how would that transpose over here?
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Post by wembley4372 on Jun 12, 2013 8:04:54 GMT
so, if we filled in the corner and it held, say 2500. That would mean that, if converted to SS, it could hold as much as 3,500! Surely that would financially be a good move for the club being able to get 1000 more paying customers into the ground. If we then decided it was popular enough to extend the SS area into the south stand, the area would hold a whopping 11,600 people (corner and Southstand combined) taking our capacity to around 35,000. The scoreboard corner would actually seat 1,800 so it would hold 3250 max if it was all standing. Personally, if standing was allowed I'd expect they would limit the increase to a bit below 80% on the early days - even if they limited the increase to 50% it would allow 2,700 in that corner. The two corners at either end of the main stand each have a theoretical capacity of 2,500 seated if they were developed. So the same formula applies as it does to the scoreboard corner. I doubt they would ever have standing next to the uppers, so only the lowers may be increased.
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Post by str8outtahampton on Jun 12, 2013 8:26:49 GMT
I think terracing and hooliganism are linked so I don't think it is. But bayern as you will know terracing was used decades before atleast major hooligan problems began in the 70's. Surely you are just making the link because that era of hooliganism was also an era in which terraces were at most/all grounds? The hooligan element was still around way after the introduction of all seater stadia after all. Correct. If there's any evidence to link hooliganism and terracing, then I've not seen it. Disorder on any scale (and even at its height, it tended to be exaggerated) emerged after decades of terracing; and disorder remained long after terracing was removed. The brouhaha at Wembley in the SF of the Cup is a recent example. As for safety, the phrase "Safe Standing" suggests that standing/terracing is inherently unsafe. Similarly, if there's evidence to support that view I would be interested in seeing it. I applaud the move, but I suspect it will (as someone suggests above) be determined by people who have never stood on the terraces - and quite possibly who have rarely if ever attended matches. They may well fall for the "link between hooliganism and terracing" myth.
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Post by Stretfordpotterer on Jun 12, 2013 8:36:00 GMT
Bayern, injuries in rail seated areas used in standing mode are almost unknown in Germany. Which "growing reports" are these; what exactly is "not so great" and which problems associated with standing in rail seats areas " are on the rise ? They do have a problem with pyrotechnics, but that's not caused by the standing areas and is a different issue. Increases in football hooliganism in Germany. Luckily it seems Coates agrees with what I think if his public utterances are what he genuinely thinks, so 16-1 should be a lot bigger. Hmmm, German football has ALWAYS had terracing, how can you possibly link an increase in hooliganism to something which is a constant.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jun 12, 2013 10:45:41 GMT
Increases in football hooliganism in Germany. Luckily it seems Coates agrees with what I think if his public utterances are what he genuinely thinks, so 16-1 should be a lot bigger. Hmmm, German football has ALWAYS had terracing, how can you possibly link an increase in hooliganism to something which is a constant. Well the reports I've read say it does and it suits my agenda, so it's quite easy! It's a terrible idea that needs shelving asap.
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Post by Stretfordpotterer on Jun 12, 2013 11:44:33 GMT
Hmmm, German football has ALWAYS had terracing, how can you possibly link an increase in hooliganism to something which is a constant. Well the reports I've read say it does and it suits my agenda, so it's quite easy! It's a terrible idea that needs shelving asap. Will never understand why people are opposed to things which give them more choice. You don't want to stand, fine, nobody is banning seats. You can never completely eliminate the inherent dangers of terracing but safe standing sufficiently limits them to make this a perfectly viable and sensible option to explore. the real danger lay in the poor (complete lack of) organisation which went with British terracing and the conversion of most terraces into something akin to a stockade, along with the all pervasive opinion in positions of authority in the late 70's to early 90's, that all football supporters could and should be treated like criminals.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jun 12, 2013 11:46:54 GMT
Well the reports I've read say it does and it suits my agenda, so it's quite easy! It's a terrible idea that needs shelving asap. Will never understand why people are opposed to things which give them more choice. You don't want to stand, fine, nobody is banning seats. You can never completely eliminate the inherent dangers of terracing but safe standing sufficiently limits them to make this a perfectly viable and sensible option to explore. the real danger lay in the poor (complete lack of) organisation which went with British terracing and the conversion of most terraces into something akin to a stockade, along with the all pervasive opinion in positions of authority in the late 70's to early 90's, that all football supporters could and should be treated like criminals. Because I think it will lead to bad things, things I don't want to see at a football game. Pretty simple really.
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Post by Stretfordpotterer on Jun 12, 2013 11:58:43 GMT
Will never understand why people are opposed to things which give them more choice. You don't want to stand, fine, nobody is banning seats. You can never completely eliminate the inherent dangers of terracing but safe standing sufficiently limits them to make this a perfectly viable and sensible option to explore. the real danger lay in the poor (complete lack of) organisation which went with British terracing and the conversion of most terraces into something akin to a stockade, along with the all pervasive opinion in positions of authority in the late 70's to early 90's, that all football supporters could and should be treated like criminals. Because I think it will lead to bad things, things I don't want to see at a football game. Pretty simple really. Such as? Could you be a little more vague.......? You should be a politician.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jun 12, 2013 12:01:12 GMT
Because I think it will lead to bad things, things I don't want to see at a football game. Pretty simple really. Such as? Could you be a little more vague.......? You should be a politician. Read over the thread, I've already mentioned it! How's about that for a Politician's answer!
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Post by MarkWolstanton on Jun 12, 2013 12:15:29 GMT
Well the reports I've read say it does and it suits my agenda, so it's quite easy! It's a terrible idea that needs shelving asap. Will never understand why people are opposed to things which give them more choice. You don't want to stand, fine, nobody is banning seats. You can never completely eliminate the inherent dangers of terracing but safe standing sufficiently limits them to make this a perfectly viable and sensible option to explore. the real danger lay in the poor (complete lack of) organisation which went with British terracing and the conversion of most terraces into something akin to a stockade, along with the all pervasive opinion in positions of authority in the late 70's to early 90's, that all football supporters could and should be treated like criminals. The real danger lay in the administrators and others responsible for our safety at football matches. All seater stadiums were recommended and introduced soley on the fact that taylor and the like identified the people running and looking after the game and its facilities could not be trusted. Hillsborough proves this conclusively. It had absolutely nothing to do with opinions, stockades or anything else. Terracing was never ever intrinscally unsafe to start with. Nothing has changed in the incompetent organisations that have this responsibility and therefore there is no change arguable for the return of terracing/safe standing/unsafe standing or whatever else it is called this week, in my view. Redesign all you like but it changes nothing until everything changes. One more person killed at a game of football is too high a price to pay for a sanitised beyond recognition return to something from some of our pasts. The organisations pushing this (or the individuals I have spoken to on the subject) know what I say above is true so I scratch my head when they wish to continue to put the cart before the horse if I am to be honest.
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Post by Stretfordpotterer on Jun 12, 2013 12:29:33 GMT
Such as? Could you be a little more vague.......? You should be a politician. Read over the thread, I've already mentioned it! How's about that for a Politician's answer! Ah, the red herring of increased hooliganism for which there is no substantiating evidence........ You really should be a politician. I do think there is far less of a culture of hooliganism in this country now and i don't see terracing bringing about a resurgence. Especially if properly organised and policed.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jun 12, 2013 12:32:21 GMT
Read over the thread, I've already mentioned it! How's about that for a Politician's answer! Ah, the red herring of increased hooliganism for which there is no substantiating evidence........ You really should be a politician. I do think there is far less of a culture of hooliganism in this country now and i don't see terracing bringing about a resurgence. Especially if properly organised and policed. I think it's still bubbling under the surface waiting for something to spark it if I'm honest. And it's mainly kids who think they're hooligans but are just little shits. It's not worth the risk imo.
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Post by Stretfordpotterer on Jun 12, 2013 12:39:36 GMT
Will never understand why people are opposed to things which give them more choice. You don't want to stand, fine, nobody is banning seats. You can never completely eliminate the inherent dangers of terracing but safe standing sufficiently limits them to make this a perfectly viable and sensible option to explore. the real danger lay in the poor (complete lack of) organisation which went with British terracing and the conversion of most terraces into something akin to a stockade, along with the all pervasive opinion in positions of authority in the late 70's to early 90's, that all football supporters could and should be treated like criminals. The real danger lay in the administrators and others responsible for our safety at football matches. All seater stadiums were recommended and introduced soley on the fact that taylor and the like identified the people running and looking after the game and its facilities could not be trusted. Hillsborough proves this conclusively. It had absolutely nothing to do with opinions, stockades or anything else. Terracing was never ever intrinscally unsafe to start with. Nothing has changed in the incompetent organisations that have this responsibility and therefore there is no change arguable for the return of terracing/safe standing/unsafe standing or whatever else it is called this week, in my view. Redesign all you like but it changes nothing until everything changes. One more person killed at a game of football is too high a price to pay for a sanitised beyond recognition return to something from some of our pasts. The organisations pushing this (or the individuals I have spoken to on the subject) know what I say above is true so I scratch my head when they wish to continue to put the cart before the horse if I am to be honest. Terracing with fences and locked gates at the front most certainly was intrinsically unsafe. I think it's somewhat far fetched to claim that saftey standards required in stadia now, were safe standing to be introduced, are in anyway comparable to that which existed in 1989 and also a little remiss to discount the institutional apathy from the authorities which led to them. Also, given what i've seen of German football and what i experienced myself on the Boothen among other terraces, nobody would wnat the terraces of old back, people would only accept a somewhat sanitised version, but the "sanitised" version looks pretty damn good to me whenever i watch a bundesliga game.
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Post by Malcolm Clarke on Jun 12, 2013 13:08:35 GMT
Will never understand why people are opposed to things which give them more choice. You don't want to stand, fine, nobody is banning seats. You can never completely eliminate the inherent dangers of terracing but safe standing sufficiently limits them to make this a perfectly viable and sensible option to explore. the real danger lay in the poor (complete lack of) organisation which went with British terracing and the conversion of most terraces into something akin to a stockade, along with the all pervasive opinion in positions of authority in the late 70's to early 90's, that all football supporters could and should be treated like criminals. The real danger lay in the administrators and others responsible for our safety at football matches. All seater stadiums were recommended and introduced soley on the fact that taylor and the like identified the people running and looking after the game and its facilities could not be trusted. Hillsborough proves this conclusively. It had absolutely nothing to do with opinions, stockades or anything else. Terracing was never ever intrinscally unsafe to start with. Nothing has changed in the incompetent organisations that have this responsibility and therefore there is no change arguable for the return of terracing/safe standing/unsafe standing or whatever else it is called this week, in my view. Redesign all you like but it changes nothing until everything changes. One more person killed at a game of football is too high a price to pay for a sanitised beyond recognition return to something from some of our pasts. The organisations pushing this (or the individuals I have spoken to on the subject) know what I say above is true so I scratch my head when they wish to continue to put the cart before the horse if I am to be honest. Actually, I don't think it is true, Mark. 20 + years ago we didn't have the regulatory framework we have now with the Sports Ground Safety Authority (successor to the Football Licensing Authority which was established after Hillsborough), local Safety Advisory Groups taking responsibilities seriously and proper safety officers at each club with clearly-defined responsibilities. I think that in this area, almost everything has changed.
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Post by lordb on Jun 12, 2013 13:38:33 GMT
If the pricing reflected the difference,as it used to,then I think there would be a huge demand for standing.
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Post by marrer on Jun 12, 2013 14:06:29 GMT
I've quickly read this whole thread and haven't seen anyone comment about atmosphere and really getting into it. I was a season ticket holder at the Victoria Ground (before moving to Australia) and bloody loved my Saturdays, standing in the Boothen, singing my heart out, giving it 'Alan Durban's red and white army' etc etc. Now whenever I get back, I go to the Brit, sit down and it's a hell of a difference in terms of atmosphere and getting stuck into it. It's a bit like sitting at a concert but wanting to get up and dance your backside off. Can you imagine sitting down for a rock concert. It kills your energy and the atmosphere. The crowds in Australia at football, or anything for that matter are crap. They all sit down and clap. Bloody rubbish. Give me back my standing section any day and I hope it's back next time I get to the Brit (Christmas) though I gather Mr Coates doesn't agree. So bring back the terraces, and let me let rip with my singing. Signing off. Off to shoot some roos! Cheers marrers
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Post by nickbb on Jun 12, 2013 14:47:12 GMT
I'm all in favour of a standing area if done properly like the rail system.
I'd like to see either the corner filled in where the scoreboard now sits and a standing area put in place there or change the part of the Boothen/South stands to something similar to picture.
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