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Post by hollybush on Jun 10, 2013 13:21:44 GMT
Nope, I take my own extra strong mints, I don't particularly like tomato soup (free endless Bovril might work) and I'm such a fat bastard I don't feel the cold. You don't get me like that.
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Post by Stretfordpotterer on Jun 10, 2013 13:29:59 GMT
Nope, I take my own extra strong mints, I don't particularly like tomato soup (free endless Bovril might work) and I'm such a fat bastard I don't feel the cold. You don't get me like that. In all seriousness, i like me seat in block25, and i'm lucky enough that we have a nice group of people around us, but if you said to me there could be a standing boothen end, but i wouldn't be allowed to use it, and i would have to move and sit in the stands (which i hate i might add) i would still agree to it to allow the younger generation to experience what i felt about standing on the Boothen.
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Post by hollybush on Jun 10, 2013 13:48:47 GMT
Nope, I take my own extra strong mints, I don't particularly like tomato soup (free endless Bovril might work) and I'm such a fat bastard I don't feel the cold. You don't get me like that. In all seriousness, i like me seat in block25, and i'm lucky enough that we have a nice group of people around us, but if you said to me there could be a standing boothen end, but i wouldn't be allowed to use it, and i would have to move and sit in the stands (which i hate i might add) i would still agree to it to allow the younger generation to experience what i felt about standing on the Boothen. Yeah, I fully understand your point about youngsters not getting the buzz we used to get on the terraces. There has to be some way of accommodating at least a reasonable number of standing places, without disrupting everybody else. Having the bottom part as standing wouldn't work; you need to have a block of singers and chanters somewhere highish behind the goal. I think the problem might be that you might get lots of block 19 types all heading for a limited standing area, even if they had seat tickets. It would take some admin and proper stewarding, not the type we get now. It would probably have to be a completely segregated block with no access from anywhere else, just to stop anybody from crowding in. The 'singing' section at Sunderland seems to work quite well, even though it's in a corner. Maybe the scoreboard corner would be the perfect place to try it out.
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Post by stokiejoeofalsager on Jun 10, 2013 14:08:12 GMT
firstly, the obvious solution is to expand the ground and have that part as the standing area. To answer your question, if people had to move to accommodate the standing area, those people would be able to take the seats of those who moved to the standing area to the seated. After all, the introduction would probably not see a huge influx in attendances (maybe a small one) so the seats of most who move to the standing area would be open for others to take. You still haven't addresses the fact that 1, and no doubt thousands of others, sit where we do through choice, and we don't want to move. Why should we, just to accommodate people who want to stand. Giving them the choice removes OUR choice. I had addressed it by saying the obvious solution would be to expand the ground. That way nobody would have to move unless they wanted to move to the standing area.
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Post by Stretfordpotterer on Jun 10, 2013 14:29:54 GMT
In all seriousness, i like me seat in block25, and i'm lucky enough that we have a nice group of people around us, but if you said to me there could be a standing boothen end, but i wouldn't be allowed to use it, and i would have to move and sit in the stands (which i hate i might add) i would still agree to it to allow the younger generation to experience what i felt about standing on the Boothen. Yeah, I fully understand your point about youngsters not getting the buzz we used to get on the terraces. There has to be some way of accommodating at least a reasonable number of standing places, without disrupting everybody else. Having the bottom part as standing wouldn't work; you need to have a block of singers and chanters somewhere highish behind the goal. I think the problem might be that you might get lots of block 19 types all heading for a limited standing area, even if they had seat tickets. It would take some admin and proper stewarding, not the type we get now. It would probably have to be a completely segregated block with no access from anywhere else, just to stop anybody from crowding in. The 'singing' section at Sunderland seems to work quite well, even though it's in a corner. Maybe the scoreboard corner would be the perfect place to try it out. I think it would be have to be all or nothing with the boothen. To be honest, i think they would be far more likely to "switch" the ends round if it came to equipping a whole end with safe standing. The most logical step would be a trial in the scoreboard corner, followed by an extension into the south stand according to demand.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jun 10, 2013 22:28:10 GMT
Massive step back, I hope the campaign dies on its arse! Good luck! Nothing to stop you or anyone else continuing to park their fat arse on a rock hard plastic seat on a match day so why be all bitter and twisted about letting those of us fit enough to stand do so in peace? Live and let live Nothing to do with laziness I'm afraid just safety and the growing reports of it not being so great in Germany and that problems are on the rise over there. It's just an all round terrible idea.
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Post by Malcolm Clarke on Jun 10, 2013 22:48:55 GMT
Nothing to stop you or anyone else continuing to park their fat arse on a rock hard plastic seat on a match day so why be all bitter and twisted about letting those of us fit enough to stand do so in peace? Live and let live Nothing to do with laziness I'm afraid just safety and the growing reports of it not being so great in Germany and that problems are on the rise over there. It's just an all round terrible idea. Bayern, injuries in rail seated areas used in standing mode are almost unknown in Germany. Which "growing reports" are these; what exactly is "not so great" and which problems associated with standing in rail seats areas " are on the rise ? They do have a problem with pyrotechnics, but that's not caused by the standing areas and is a different issue.
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Post by Malcolm Clarke on Jun 11, 2013 8:47:51 GMT
Report on growing pressure within the Football League in this morning's Indy tinyurl.com/k63k654
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Jun 11, 2013 9:11:44 GMT
One of the problems in converting part of the Brit to standing is that, at the moment the concourses at the Boothen and South stands are bang on the MINIMUM legal size for the capacity of the stands. So with an increased capacity if converted to standing then the concourses would have to be increased in size by building back into the car parks or creating mezzanine floors in the concourses.
The plans for the new corner provided for a more generous concourse and that would mean that standing could easily be accomodated there when/if it is built. The corners are the obvious place to start if safe standing were allowed at the Brit and a corner could be developed to give awayfans both seated and standing options. If more standing areas were wanted then the south stand with an expanded concourse is the obvious place as people who sit there are already liable to be moved for some games and would probably include a high proportion of potential standers!
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Post by Alvechurch Assassin on Jun 11, 2013 9:25:20 GMT
There is no need for this to be brought up in my opinion. I can promise you that if the decision got closer to actually implementing "safe standing" there would be enough opposition to it to stop it in its tracks.
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Post by stokiejoeofalsager on Jun 11, 2013 10:28:27 GMT
One of the problems in converting part of the Brit to standing is that, at the moment the concourses at the Boothen and South stands are bang on the MINIMUM legal size for the capacity of the stands. So with an increased capacity if converted to standing then the concourses would have to be increased in size by building back into the car parks or creating mezzanine floors in the concourses. The plans for the new corner provided for a more generous concourse and that would mean that standing could easily be accomodated there when/if it is built. The corners are the obvious place to start if safe standing were allowed at the Brit and a corner could be developed to give awayfans both seated and standing options. If more standing areas were wanted then the south stand with an expanded concourse is the obvious place as people who sit there are already liable to be moved for some games and would probably include a high proportion of potential standers! good point actually. I'd say about 1/4 at atleast of the south stand already stand up throughout games anyway.
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Post by Stafford-Stokie on Jun 11, 2013 11:02:51 GMT
One of the problems in converting part of the Brit to standing is that, at the moment the concourses at the Boothen and South stands are bang on the MINIMUM legal size for the capacity of the stands. So with an increased capacity if converted to standing then the concourses would have to be increased in size by building back into the car parks or creating mezzanine floors in the concourses. The plans for the new corner provided for a more generous concourse and that would mean that standing could easily be accomodated there when/if it is built. The corners are the obvious place to start if safe standing were allowed at the Brit and a corner could be developed to give awayfans both seated and standing options. If more standing areas were wanted then the south stand with an expanded concourse is the obvious place as people who sit there are already liable to be moved for some games and would probably include a high proportion of potential standers! Would the capacity of the stand increase though? The way I understand it you will still be stood in front of your seat so there will be no extra people.
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Post by Stafford-Stokie on Jun 11, 2013 11:04:20 GMT
There is no need for this to be brought up in my opinion. I can promise you that if the decision got closer to actually implementing "safe standing" there would be enough opposition to it to stop it in its tracks. From who? There are a hell of a lot of fans that want to see standing again. I think most polls like the fsf also back this up
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Post by hollybush on Jun 11, 2013 11:08:46 GMT
But you know Stafford, that what the fans want is essentially irrelevant. It will be down to politicians, FA amateurs and the boys in blue, so don't hold your breath.
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Post by Stafford-Stokie on Jun 11, 2013 11:10:38 GMT
But you know Stafford, that what the fans want is essentially irrelevant. It will be down to politicians, FA amateurs and the boys in blue, so don't hold your breath. Completely agree mate. As long as they leave me alone on the back row I ain't arsed.
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Post by Stretfordpotterer on Jun 11, 2013 11:41:46 GMT
One of the problems in converting part of the Brit to standing is that, at the moment the concourses at the Boothen and South stands are bang on the MINIMUM legal size for the capacity of the stands. So with an increased capacity if converted to standing then the concourses would have to be increased in size by building back into the car parks or creating mezzanine floors in the concourses. The plans for the new corner provided for a more generous concourse and that would mean that standing could easily be accomodated there when/if it is built. The corners are the obvious place to start if safe standing were allowed at the Brit and a corner could be developed to give awayfans both seated and standing options. If more standing areas were wanted then the south stand with an expanded concourse is the obvious place as people who sit there are already liable to be moved for some games and would probably include a high proportion of potential standers! Would the capacity of the stand increase though? The way I understand it you will still be stood in front of your seat so there will be no extra people. Yes, it would increase, you can fit more than one person per seat space in when the seats are up, so Dortmund for example, holds 65000 all seated but over 80000 when the standing is in place for league games.
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Post by Stafford-Stokie on Jun 11, 2013 13:23:46 GMT
Would the capacity of the stand increase though? The way I understand it you will still be stood in front of your seat so there will be no extra people. Yes, it would increase, you can fit more than one person per seat space in when the seats are up, so Dortmund for example, holds 65000 all seated but over 80000 when the standing is in place for league games. Oh right. Didn't realise that. Cheers.
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Post by Stretfordpotterer on Jun 11, 2013 13:38:21 GMT
Yes, it would increase, you can fit more than one person per seat space in when the seats are up, so Dortmund for example, holds 65000 all seated but over 80000 when the standing is in place for league games. Oh right. Didn't realise that. Cheers. Not sure what the ratio is as i'm not entirely certain what the exact number of standing places is but from what i can find it looks like 25000 standing places for league matches. So the reduction in capacity of approx 15000 for champions league games seems like around 2.5 standing places converts to a single seat. Some of the footage from the Sudtribune in Dortmund on You Tube is well worth a look, just awesome.
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Post by Stretfordpotterer on Jun 11, 2013 13:41:26 GMT
Just an additional point, this form of terracing, ie, terracing which can be converted to seating, isn't the only option in Germany, normal terracing is also fine, but obviously it's not allowed in European competition.
I went on a stadium tour at the Millerntor, St Pauli's ground, in Feb and a large chunk of that (approx 10k) is just traditional terracing.
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Jun 11, 2013 15:16:29 GMT
Oh right. Didn't realise that. Cheers. Not sure what the ratio is as i'm not entirely certain what the exact number of standing places is but from what i can find it looks like 25000 standing places for league matches. So the reduction in capacity of approx 15000 for champions league games seems like around 2.5 standing places converts to a single seat. Some of the footage from the Sudtribune in Dortmund on You Tube is well worth a look, just awesome. Malcolm Clarke will be able to tell you the exact ratio but, going from memory, it is not quite 2:1 - more like 1.8:1 In other words an area with 1000 rail seats could result in 1800 standing in the same area. Those of course are MAXIMUM figures - clubs could set a lower limit if, for example, they hadn't got enough stewards, or a big enough concourse.
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Post by Malcolm Clarke on Jun 11, 2013 15:41:43 GMT
It is 1.8, John - and your final sentence is quite right as well
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jun 11, 2013 20:21:22 GMT
Nothing to do with laziness I'm afraid just safety and the growing reports of it not being so great in Germany and that problems are on the rise over there. It's just an all round terrible idea. Bayern, injuries in rail seated areas used in standing mode are almost unknown in Germany. Which "growing reports" are these; what exactly is "not so great" and which problems associated with standing in rail seats areas " are on the rise ? They do have a problem with pyrotechnics, but that's not caused by the standing areas and is a different issue. Increases in football hooliganism in Germany. Luckily it seems Coates agrees with what I think if his public utterances are what he genuinely thinks, so 16-1 should be a lot bigger.
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Post by stokiejoeofalsager on Jun 11, 2013 20:46:31 GMT
Not sure what the ratio is as i'm not entirely certain what the exact number of standing places is but from what i can find it looks like 25000 standing places for league matches. So the reduction in capacity of approx 15000 for champions league games seems like around 2.5 standing places converts to a single seat. Some of the footage from the Sudtribune in Dortmund on You Tube is well worth a look, just awesome. Malcolm Clarke will be able to tell you the exact ratio but, going from memory, it is not quite 2:1 - more like 1.8:1 In other words an area with 1000 rail seats could result in 1800 standing in the same area. Those of course are MAXIMUM figures - clubs could set a lower limit if, for example, they hadn't got enough stewards, or a big enough concourse. so, if we filled in the corner and it held, say 2500. That would mean that, if converted to SS, it could hold as much as 3,500! Surely that would financially be a good move for the club being able to get 1000 more paying customers into the ground. If we then decided it was popular enough to extend the SS area into the south stand, the area would hold a whopping 11,600 people (corner and Southstand combined) taking our capacity to around 35,000.
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Jun 11, 2013 20:54:35 GMT
Malcolm Clarke will be able to tell you the exact ratio but, going from memory, it is not quite 2:1 - more like 1.8:1 In other words an area with 1000 rail seats could result in 1800 standing in the same area. Those of course are MAXIMUM figures - clubs could set a lower limit if, for example, they hadn't got enough stewards, or a big enough concourse. so, if we filled in the corner and it held, say 2500. That would mean that, if converted to SS, it could hold as much as 3,500! Surely that would financially be a good move for the club being able to get 1000 more paying customers into the ground. If we then decided it was popular enough to extend the SS area into the south stand, the area would hold a whopping 11,600 people (corner and Southstand combined) taking our capacity to around 35,000. The scoreboard corner would actually seat 1,800 so it would hold 3250 max if it was all standing. Personally, if standing was allowed I'd expect they would limit the increase to a bit below 80% on the early days - even if they limited the increase to 50% it would allow 2,700 in that corner. The two corners at either end of the main stand each have a theoretical capacity of 2,500 seated if they were developed. So the same formula applies as it does to the scoreboard corner.
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Post by stokiejoeofalsager on Jun 11, 2013 20:57:54 GMT
so, if we filled in the corner and it held, say 2500. That would mean that, if converted to SS, it could hold as much as 3,500! Surely that would financially be a good move for the club being able to get 1000 more paying customers into the ground. If we then decided it was popular enough to extend the SS area into the south stand, the area would hold a whopping 11,600 people (corner and Southstand combined) taking our capacity to around 35,000. The scoreboard corner would actually seat 1,800 so it would hold 3250 max if it was all standing. Personally, if standing was allowed I'd expect they would limit the increase to a bit below 80% on the early days - even if they limited the increase to 50% it would allow 2,700 in that corner. The two corners at either end of the main stand have a theoretical capacity of 2,500 seated if they were developed. So the same formula applies as it does to the scoreboard corner. Ah I see, I got mixed up between corners.
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Post by Malcolm Clarke on Jun 11, 2013 21:35:54 GMT
Bayern, injuries in rail seated areas used in standing mode are almost unknown in Germany. Which "growing reports" are these; what exactly is "not so great" and which problems associated with standing in rail seats areas " are on the rise ? They do have a problem with pyrotechnics, but that's not caused by the standing areas and is a different issue. Increases in football hooliganism in Germany. Luckily it seems Coates agrees with what I think if his public utterances are what he genuinely thinks, so 16-1 should be a lot bigger. Bayern, if it's a debate about hooliganism, as opposed to spectator safety, that's altering the goalposts - and it needs to be an evidence-based debate i.e you need evidence both on the levels of hooliganism in Germany and how they are changing and a causal link between that and rail seats when used in standing mode.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jun 11, 2013 21:40:10 GMT
Increases in football hooliganism in Germany. Luckily it seems Coates agrees with what I think if his public utterances are what he genuinely thinks, so 16-1 should be a lot bigger. Bayern, if it's a debate about hooliganism, as opposed to spectator safety, that's altering the goalposts - and it needs to be an evidence-based debate i.e you need evidence both on the levels of hooliganism in Germany and how they are changing and a causal link between that and rail seats when used in standing mode. I think terracing and hooliganism are linked so I don't think it is.
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Post by stokiejoeofalsager on Jun 11, 2013 22:33:10 GMT
Bayern, if it's a debate about hooliganism, as opposed to spectator safety, that's altering the goalposts - and it needs to be an evidence-based debate i.e you need evidence both on the levels of hooliganism in Germany and how they are changing and a causal link between that and rail seats when used in standing mode. I think terracing and hooliganism are linked so I don't think it is. But bayern as you will know terracing was used decades before atleast major hooligan problems began in the 70's. Surely you are just making the link because that era of hooliganism was also an era in which terraces were at most/all grounds? The hooligan element was still around way after the introduction of all seater stadia after all.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jun 11, 2013 22:36:56 GMT
I think terracing and hooliganism are linked so I don't think it is. But bayern as you will know terracing was used decades before atleast major hooligan problems began in the 70's. Surely you are just making the link because that era of hooliganism was also an era in which terraces were at most/all grounds? The hooligan element was still around way after the introduction of all seater stadia after all. I think the nature of it helps though and it is linked to safety too. I just think it's a massive step backwards and am very unmoved by the arguments thrown back at me. Sorry.
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Post by stokiejoeofalsager on Jun 11, 2013 22:43:59 GMT
But bayern as you will know terracing was used decades before atleast major hooligan problems began in the 70's. Surely you are just making the link because that era of hooliganism was also an era in which terraces were at most/all grounds? The hooligan element was still around way after the introduction of all seater stadia after all. I think the nature of it helps though and it is linked to safety too. I just think it's a massive step backwards and am very unmoved by the arguments thrown back at me. Sorry. fair enough.
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