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Post by philm87 on Apr 15, 2013 23:55:50 GMT
This does seem to be one of the few things that we don't argue about on here
There seems to be a consensus as to where things went wrong which makes it all the more strange that both the manager and the board haven't really noticed
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Post by OldStokie on Apr 15, 2013 23:56:29 GMT
I don't think it was the Crouch signing that caused the problem. The lad scored 14 goals last season in a side that wasn't geared up for scoring goals. I'd plump for our loss of wingers (whether through deliberately not playing two, which was once mooted as not our thing by Da Management, or through other things), but how the hell we expect goals from a side with no decent wingers that plays to the big man/men up front is beyond comprehension.
OS.
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Post by philm87 on Apr 16, 2013 0:03:31 GMT
I don't think it was the Crouch signing that caused the problem. The lad scored 14 goals last season in a side that wasn't geared up for scoring goals. I'd plump for our loss of wingers (whether through deliberately not playing two, which was once mooted as not our thing by Da Management, or through other things), but how the hell we expect goals from a side with no decent wingers that plays to the big man/men up front is beyond comprehension. OS. I think the two are connected. Even if you don't fully accept the arguments about pace, power and mobility then the signing of Crouch meant we spunked all that money on a striker we didn't really need (Jones and Walters bagged 24 between them the previous season) when we could have spent it on a winger. Imagine if we had simply held on to that 10 million and used it to buy a couple of decent wingers. The Crouch signing made no sense on so many levels.
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Post by mateybass on Apr 16, 2013 0:07:03 GMT
Pulis' idea of squad rotation is to rotate the players into different positions on the pitch :smack forehead smiley:
I think it all went wrong when he didn't play the formidable former-PNE strike partnership of Cresswell and Fuller together when he had them as Stoke players... that and more recently not adapting his strategy when the rest of the prem finally worked out how to play against us at home.
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Post by thevoid on Apr 16, 2013 0:07:04 GMT
How people can say the signing of Crouch is beyond me. Player of year and top scorer and we were all calling for him to be in the Euro squad. Correct, I really thought Crouch was the marquee signing that meant we had arrived. Don't blame Crouch, blame the gaffer for not being able to adapt his system to accomodate his next level signings into them. Palacios was a makeweight in the Crouch deal, like Tuncay was with Huth. The clubs wanted us to buy both players, not one. Perhaps Crouch could work alongside Owen with Adam providing the service from midfield and our two best wingers on the pitch too? With regard to the initial question, I would say the start to last season after the Cup Final when results were better than the performances were. We were incredibly lucky to beat Liverpool and West Brom early doors, but the rot soon kicked in with that hiding at Sunderland. You can mask poor performances behind undeserved results for awhile, but eventually the problems will come home to roost. Ask Brian Little. Like Jamo said, those quickfire wins over Norwich and Swansea stopped the rot and papered over the cracks.
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Post by OldStokie on Apr 16, 2013 0:09:45 GMT
I don't think it was the Crouch signing that caused the problem. The lad scored 14 goals last season in a side that wasn't geared up for scoring goals. I'd plump for our loss of wingers (whether through deliberately not playing two, which was once mooted as not our thing by Da Management, or through other things), but how the hell we expect goals from a side with no decent wingers that plays to the big man/men up front is beyond comprehension. OS. I think the two are connected. Even if you don't fully accept the arguments about pace, power and mobility then the signing of Crouch meant we spunked all that money on a striker we didn't really need (Jones and Walters bagged 24 between them the previous season) when we could have spent it on a winger. Imagine if we had simply held on to that 10 million and used it to buy a couple of decent wingers. The Crouch signing made no sense on so many levels. I would probably agree with that, and I do accept the point about pace, power and mobility, and that's why I would not have got rid of Fuller without I'd replaced him like-for-like. But the point I was making is that whoever is up front (except Fuller who could create a chance from nothing), without decent wingers, we might as well not have any forwards and play our entire game from midfield. OS.
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Post by philm87 on Apr 16, 2013 0:14:35 GMT
Perhaps our failure to exploit foreign markets was ultimately our undoing then?
We definitely did try and sign other wingers - Adam Johnson, Matt Jarvis, for example - and instead ended up with Michael Kightly. Those old school wingers do seem to be a dying breed and having missed out on the good ones we had very little to fall back on without shopping abroad.
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Post by mateybass on Apr 16, 2013 0:17:02 GMT
Perhaps our failure to exploit foreign markets was ultimately our undoing then? Wasn't that why Pulis was sacked first time round? We definitely did try and sign other wingers - Adam Johnson, Matt Jarvis, for example - and instead ended up with Michael Kightly. Those old school wingers do seem to be a dying breed and having missed out on the good ones we had very little to fall back on without shopping abroad. .. or developing some through the academy
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Post by potterpaul on Apr 16, 2013 0:23:44 GMT
Three years ago our attacking plan evolved around Fuller and Delap. Not replaced. Two years ago our attacking plan evolved around wingers. Not replaced. For me this is closest to the truth. The system worked terrific with Fuller, Mama and Delap. When we lost Mama it was clear that a very special type of player was required to link Fuller with the rest of the team, that player just was not available or did not exsist. When we lost Delap we attempted to replace him with Shotton's throws did not work out. At this point a complete new system was required to get the best out of Fuller while he still offered the team some energy. This is where we failed and things began to go wrong. When we lost Fuller and still persisted with a system that suited practically no one in the team was damn right stupidity and was doomed to where we find ourselves now.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2013 0:51:22 GMT
Perhaps our failure to exploit foreign markets was ultimately our undoing then? We definitely did try and sign other wingers - Adam Johnson, Matt Jarvis, for example - and instead ended up with Michael Kightly. Those old school wingers do seem to be a dying breed and having missed out on the good ones we had very little to fall back on without shopping abroad. Without trying to be a smartarse, and make some cryptic semi humorous reply, the term "Must try harder" springs to mind.
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Post by hanibal7 on Apr 16, 2013 2:21:10 GMT
Since Owen was signed,the decline has happened.Whether he has caused dressing room discont,or the players are disgusted the way he has been treated.As normal,TP bought on Owen when we were 0-2 down,the same as Swansea away 3-0 down,Owen must be well pissed off.I also believe that Owen with Adam are the main instigators in dressing room discontent,based on their body language on the subs bench recently.
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Post by PotterLog on Apr 16, 2013 3:09:23 GMT
Crouch definitely, I dont believe we were ever in for Ba I think it was just rubbish to get Crouch. Same with Remy/KJ window.We bought a player who doesnt fit the system, doesnt do what we needed him to, had a declining supply of chances and we also wasted money on Palacios and looked stupid for it. Neither had resale value, neither in the grander scheme improved the team and disrupted the balance of the squad as we bought in CJ as well. The only player who would get into the FA cup team now for me would be Nzonzi. Shows how far we havent come, and how far we havent evolved. In that time we have lost the wingers and gained Glen Whelan starting when he was once behind Delap and Whitehead but all of a sudden has become the glue. This is overlooking the Gudjohnsens, Tuncay, Tongue, Soares, Arismendi, Edu, Ness, Davies, Owen. Then we have the next category of Shea, Adam, Cameron, Owen of players he has either no intention or idea how to play or get the best out of them. I worry for Butland too as his recent comments about Begovic serving under Sorensen is just laying the foundation for Butland to either go back out on loan or be expected to sit on the bench. Either way one of our keepers needs to go in the summer as sending him back out on loan would be criminal. We have the same old problems with lack of wingers, effective strike force, creative midfield and a left back. And we have the new problems of how to play wingers and/or playing a 3 man midfield to accommodate Adam. How to play what I think is clearly our most effective strike force of Jones and Jerome and accommodate Adam. Further more we have Cameron/Wilson/Edu/Ness all centre midfield players but instead TP refuses to play any in a proper position when all would offer something different. TP will ruin their careers on his own if hes not careful, if its true liverpool have been sniffing round Wilson its testament we arent using him where he could prove best. Crouch/Palacios signing was the beginning of the end, definitely. We've been unbalanced and in decline ever since. Ba and Remy were both photographed at the ground wearing Stoke clobber mate. Ba was as done as a deal can be without actually being.. you know, done.
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Post by barmystokie1 on Apr 16, 2013 4:19:11 GMT
Wolves before the FA Cup final. More precisely about 30 mins in when Ethers got injured and "lost it" as a player bearing in mind how crucial he was to us.We have never recovered from this injury combined with the fall-out with JP.
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Post by CalgaryPotter on Apr 16, 2013 4:35:00 GMT
It's been wrong for a long time but for me, the particular turning point this season was the Fellaini affair.
The media highlighted the holding done by our two big men at the back & ever since they've toned it down big time. As soon as that happened our so called solid defence has fell apart. How the hell a butt from an opposing player has fecked up our season is beyond me.
With the lack of goals in our team, the defence has always been our saviour. In the past we've had the ability to grind out a result, now we effectively know that we need two goals per game because likelihood is that we will concede. With the lack of service from wingers & central midfield it would be impossible for Falcao & Messi to score two goals in a game for us.
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Post by y_oh_y_delilah on Apr 16, 2013 6:22:13 GMT
Valencia away, the day thousands of honest, hard-working Stokies were mugged and shafted by a clueless manager.
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Post by metalhead on Apr 16, 2013 6:28:37 GMT
Valencia away, the day thousands of honest, hard-working Stokies were mugged and shafted by a clueless manager. +1 We threw away a wonderful opportunity. We weren't out of that game, and Tony Pulis decided to make that decision for us.
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Post by jeycov on Apr 16, 2013 7:30:13 GMT
Three years ago our attacking plan evolved around Fuller and Delap. Not replaced. Two years ago our attacking plan evolved around wingers. Not replaced. Spot on - yes try and improve the quality of midfield players, upgrade our fullbacks should be part of the plan BUT We need to score more goals - or even some goals. Considering we had such a good defensive record up to Christmas the decline has been very painful. We looked shell shocked in our home game v Chelsea and seem to have lost lots of confidence since then imo
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Post by Stretfordpotterer on Apr 16, 2013 7:37:01 GMT
Don't think there's any one thing, I have been predicting this run for 4 years. It was always going to come at some stage.
Regardless of the actual reason on the pitch, and for me that is never adequately replacing Pennant and Ethers, a mid table prem team that relies solely on it's 19 home games to accumualate 75% of it's points will be in the shit at some stage over a 5 year period. Simple as that.
with our away record, you only have to go 3 or 4 home games with a couple of defeats and a couple of draws and you're likely talking about a 10 game streak without a win. As soon as it gets to that stage, then the pressure unevitably tells on the players and on the fans.
My biggest criticism of Tony Pulis is the 5 fucking years he has spent doing the same things away from hom, expecting a different result.
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Post by stokeramblers on Apr 16, 2013 7:37:38 GMT
16th January 1958
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2013 7:55:56 GMT
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Post by fortressbritannia on Apr 16, 2013 7:59:17 GMT
I think you have to say August 2011 rather then build on the successful team that got us to the cup final, he ripped it apart by signing Crouch, Woodgate who went straight into the starting XI replacing 3/4 big players in Wilko, Huth and Jones (depending on where TP would shoehorn Woodgate in) Then obviously there was the Pennant saga which meant he was dropped for which ever reason.
He ripped out some of our most important players which also had a huge effect on other players ie Walters, the fact is he never built on that season, and now thinks he's a better manager then what he is.
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Post by bunnyscfc on Apr 16, 2013 8:00:01 GMT
It's been wrong for a long time but for me, the particular turning point this season was the Fellaini affair. The media highlighted the holding done by our two big men at the back & ever since they've toned it down big time. As soon as that happened our so called solid defence has fell apart. How the hell a butt from an opposing player has fecked up our season is beyond me. With the lack of goals in our team, the defence has always been our saviour. In the past we've had the ability to grind out a result, now we effectively know that we need two goals per game because likelihood is that we will concede. With the lack of service from wingers & central midfield it would be impossible for Falcao & Messi to score two goals in a game for us. Great point. Since then, the two centre halves have been pale imitations of themselves imho. The criminal thing? That so many different things have gone wrong in the last 2 years and that supporters have obviously noticed them, but the man in charge hasn't. How is he still here?
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Post by Titan Uranus on Apr 16, 2013 8:11:23 GMT
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Post by ColonelMustard on Apr 16, 2013 8:14:22 GMT
It's been more like death by a thousand cuts than any single event, but the first cuts were the injuries in the run up to the cup final - especially Higgy and Ethers. This created a greater reliance on the unpredictable Pennant and a loss of great cover and leadership in all defensive positions (as well as the dressing room I would imagine). The decline hasn't been consistent and I do think poor fortune has played it's part, but they were the first cuts in my opinion.
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Post by greystokie on Apr 16, 2013 8:28:16 GMT
There have been several factors that have contributed to our demise but for me the signing of Peter Crouch has been pivotal. Its not so much the signing of the player, himself, that was the problem but more the effects that his signing caused afterwards. The player was somewhat overpriced but that, initially, was not much of an issue. He didn't fit our system too well but did manage to score a reasonable, if not a large amount of goals. With his inclusion in the side we didn't look too bad largely because we were able, by one way or another, to get balls into the box and Crouchy was good enough to make something out of one or two of them. Then the delivery dried up - teams stopped being frightened of the long throw and figured how to deal with it, they also realised that there was no plan B with our play and soon learned that they could nullify us by doubling up on our wingers particularly when TP's defensive nature kicked in and he started playing only one proper wide player. Worse was to come when Etherington got injured and Pennant got even more stupid than before and there were no adequate replacements to step in. Now the signing of Crouch had a much more significant impact; without the service he was getting he become a real liability. Despite his evident inability to adapt he still kept getting picked because TP felt that he had to justify his marquee signing. It soon became apparent to all but the manager that it was starting to go bad but TP was too stubborn to drop his star signing and persisted in the misguided belief that it would work out in the end; "I've been proving people wrong all my life, Nige". In reality the manager was incapable of formulating a different way to play football, plan B simply did not exist and the failure to replace the two wide men or have adequate cover for them left us seriously exposed. Regarding the wingers - it could be that TP had a blind spot here and simply didn't see the problem (unlikely, in my opinion), he may have been unlucky and we just couldn't get desired players to sign (possible, but then we did have the appearance of a club that was making progress in the right direction) or most likely, for me, the large amount of money spent on, the now ineffectual, Crouch (and on others, as well, I know) made the Chairman reluctant to risk wasting his cash on more expensive missfits. Sadly the upshot of all this is that we have ended up as a toothless outfit that is incapable of scoring and in serious danger of relegation
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Post by cousindupree on Apr 16, 2013 8:30:56 GMT
Without doubt its been the lack of quality wide players that has made the team look very ordinary going forward.Many on here were highlighting the need for more wide options 18 months ago.Attacking wide options were the most fundamental cog in the Pulis game plan and it was truly negligent not to have additional options. The wingers are flogged to death and it was obvious that Etherington wouldn't manage anywhere near a full season. With Pennant always a lose cannon we simply had to find top notch wide options to maintain any creativity going forward.The manager failed to appreciate the importance of the role in our attacking options and it beggars belief that our creativity going forward is currently in the hands of Ryan Shotton and Jon Walters...2 players that work hard and track back but haven't a clue how to create going forward.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2013 8:33:27 GMT
The defining moment...the pivotal point was Peter Crouch getting his teeth knocked out. Since then we've slowly gone down the shitter.
Previous to this , I would say that we have played with players well past their sell by date...Rory Delap and Higginbotham both being two shining examples of what I'm talking about...
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Post by mark71 on Apr 16, 2013 8:45:07 GMT
The failure to sign the right players after the cup final.
We didn't need crouch, we needed a winger, a fullback, centre mid and a forward to play ALONGSIDE JONES also Pulis's pig headed stubborness in playing the likes of Whelan and walters when they are clearly out of form.
Ever since then Pulis's transfer dealings have been a disaster.
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Post by roylandstoke on Apr 16, 2013 8:49:34 GMT
Signing Crouch.
My reasons for feeling that this was the moment things turned really sour have been explained in great detail in many threads both in the past and on this thread.
Oh and despite what rosco said earlier not everyone was happy with that deal when it was made. Spending £10M on a "close to past it" replacement for a player who had had a decent season the previous year, scoring and making goals, and along with his support striker (SJW in the only role he can play)hurrying the opposition defenders when they were on the ball, was madness.
We could have bought cover for our tempremental right winger or our injured left winger. We could even have bought a left back.
Signing Crouch was an act of madness.
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Post by rogerjonesisgod on Apr 16, 2013 8:56:40 GMT
THIS! Piss poor transfer policy. Teams have to change as players get older, move to bigger clubs, lose form, retire or get injured and TP just hasn't not got a plan B. We don't even use the loan system!! There must have been a half decent left back somewhere in the whole of Europe that fancied half a season in the premiership back in January???
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