Why didn't the Germans own up?

[dexter97]

Because I'm not sure (and I don't see how anyone can be) that Neuer knew for certain in that moment that it had gone in.

[bayernoatcake]

And even if he did he'd be a daft twat if he said it had. If Dave James did that we'd be furious! The linesman made a massive error, we still would have lost because we were shit, get over it.

[podolipotter]

You might be furious if David James had done that, but a lot of us would have admired him for his sportsmanship. Clearly there are not too many good sportsmen on this message board and this may well be one good reason why we cannot perform as a footballing nation at the highest level. As I have said elsewhere, it is all about respect for each other, for your opponent and for the general good of the game of soccer. Wrong is never right.

[bayernoatcake]

Sportsmanship doesn't come into it, You play to win, and as the poster at the top of this page said, I doubt the German 'keeper even saw it.

We'd have lost anyway, it really doesn't matter.

[podolipotter]

No Bayern you are wrong. You play to win - fairly - not at any cost. Neuer saw the ball bounce a metre behind his line (picture in the Daily Mail this morning proves this), and he should have had the respect for the opposition to advise the referee of this. He was wrong in not doing so and in a way this is a form of cheating.

However, you are correct in saying that we would have lost anyway, clearly the better side on the day deservedly won the game.

[bayernoatcake]

I play to win at any costs, if I can get away with something I will, sorry. I've done the same down Power League as Neuer, no blame for him from me and if I did I would be a hypocrite, just the liner who missed a blatant goal.

[podolipotter]

Then clearly Bayern, you are not a good sportsman, and worst of all you don't seem to care or respect the whole ideal of soccer. I would prefer to be known as a true sport, rather than as a cheat. It truly is a sad world we live in.

[bayernoatcake]

You're right but I'd do it again, especially if it's me whose done a Rob Green and can then get away with it! ;D

[dexter97]

Jun 28, 2010 13:58:51 GMT podolipotter said:

Then clearly Bayern, you are not a good sportsman, and worst of all you don't seem to care or respect the whole ideal of soccer. I would prefer to be known as a true sport, rather than as a cheat. It truly is a sad world we live in.

And I don't respect or care for anyone who calls football "soccer".

[podolipotter]

And you dexter confirm what I said about it being a sad world - you have nothing useful to add so throw in a one-liner that has nothing to do with the topic in hand.

[dexter97]

My mistake for imagining that humour had any place on this message board. Apologies.

[dozintheseventees]

I admire your sporting philosophy podoli and I'm all for fair play. I hate bad losers and I've never refused to shake hands with anyone who's beaten me in any sport (and I've played lots of them in my time) regardless of how they achieved that victory. You're just expecting for too much in this situation mate. Let's just suppose the keeper had indicated that the ball was in. Quite apart from the whole of his own team kicking him around the pitch, a better team than England might have gone on to win the game. Germany out of the World Cup because their keeper was 'sporting' might win him a few admirers but he might not live long enough to enjoy it. The stakes are massive and to expect a player to do that to his own nation is to be totally unrealistic. Your basic principle is right but you're asking too much at that level mate.

By the way, if you won £20 on a bet at Corals and their counter staff paid you £200, would you point out their error and give them £180 back?

[Gaffa - Mitchell]

Would we own up??

[bayernoatcake]

Jun 28, 2010 14:25:34 GMT Gaffa - Mitchell said:

Would we own up??

Maybe, if we all lived in this land;

[podolipotter]

dozintheseventies. So, at what level does anyone not cheat? European League, Prem, Champ, Reserves, youth football, school football, playground football?? And yes, I would give Corals their £180 back because I could afford to - I do accept that many who could not afford to would pocket and walk away but it still does not make it right. Our world will never be ideal as long as we wish to keep it dishonestly. Sorry, I am pontificating too much and I am a bad loser myself inside, but I would never not congratulate any opponent of mine who beat me fair and square at any game, sport or quiz.

For Dexter, sorry, My unhappiness at Englands defeat is clearly showing - please accept my apologies for my cheap comeback to you.

[dozintheseventees]

podoli: You're absolutely right mate and we all KNOW you are but it's a totally unrealistic stance. I would like a perfect world where we are all totally honest and sportsmanship takes precedence over self-interest. I also live in the real world though (with all it's faults) and can't blame the German's for taking advantage of dreadful officials decisions. Players are cheating left right and centre at this World Cup and it is infuriating. Ronaldo loses the ball and immediately looks 'pleadingly' at the referee as if to say "Is he allowed to do that? Doesn't he know I'm a great player?". I hate cheats but I hardly put the Germans in that catagory for what happenned on Sunday. A bit naughty perhaps but let's be realistic and accept that very few (if any) would have handled it differently. if you're seeking that bperfect world mate, you'll have a very long and depressing wait. Better to accept that people are not perfect.

[dexter97]

Accepted buddy. Truth is, I'm kind of laughing about it all now. As disappointed as I was yesterday at five o'clock, it's not really hurting me that much anymore. I've really fallen out of love with the England team over recent years.

[Staffsoatcake]

Nearly every World Cup when England are sent packing,there is a gripe about something.
Banksies food poisoning.
Hand of God.
Penalty miss.
Penalty miss.
Ball over the line.
What will be the excuse next time I wonder?

[scfc75]

Jun 28, 2010 18:44:14 GMT Staffsoatcake said:

Nearly every World Cup when England are sent packing,there is a gripe about something.
Banksies food poisoning.
Hand of God.
Penalty miss.
Penalty miss.
Ball over the line.
What will be the excuse next time I wonder?

A lack of talent to replace the older players.

[SydenhamStokie]

I'm obviously in a minority of 2 or 3 on this one, which is fair enough: we're all entitled to our opinions. However, the suggestion (from Irish Stokie) that I deserve the award for the most ridiculous post of the week seems a little harsh.

Sportsmanship is not unknown in football. Salopstick mentioned the 'replayed' League Cup tie between Forest and Leicester a year or two when Leicester allowed Forest to score as they were 1-0 up in the first game; as a Leicester City supporter, I would have been proud of my team doing that, and I suspect many of those who have questioned my sanity would feel the same.

On a more everyday level, if a player from Team A goes down injured, Team B routinely kick the ball out of play in the expectation that the ball will be returned to them; is this kind of sportsmanship naive or wrong?

One or two of you have blamed the linesman; he has said that he was unsighted (presumably because of players in the way) and if he was, he cannot realistically be blamed. I don't know about the referee.

A goal was scored. The Germans knew it. To my mind, they should have acknowledged the fact at the time, and done something about it.

[salopstick]

Jun 28, 2010 14:25:34 GMT Gaffa - Mitchell said:

Would we own up??

if we had there would be less backlash than the players have had for being shit

[bayernoatcake]

In a perfect world, yes. This world isn't perfect though, the Germans were right not say owt. And I still don't think Neuer could have seen it.

[Will_75]

"if a snooker player double tapped the ball or a golfer did the same they would immediatly hold their hands up

most cricketers will walk when they know for certain they nicked the ball

similar occurences in football are all to rare. them germans knew it went over and it would be nice for them to have walked to the semi circle for a new kick off

that is somthing that FIFA should address imo "

you're right of course but FIFA will never address it. This is an organisation that calls cheating "simulation".

[PoisonedDonkey]

Jun 28, 2010 8:50:10 GMT SydenhamStokie said:

Law 10 states:

'A goal is scored when the whole of the ball passes over the goal line, between the goalposts and under the crossbar, provided that no infringement of the Laws of the Game has been committed previously by the team scoring the goal'

For all the talk of the linesman and referee getting it wrong and the use of goal line technology, I have not heard anyone say the obvious - the Germans (well, certainly the goalkeeper) knew a goal had been scored, so why didn't they tell the ref/kick the ball into their own net?

The ex-professionals on BBC1 etc. are so quick to blame the officials, but never ask the obvious question - that would involve players showing some honesty, which would never do...

What world do you live in? Are you saying that if you were Manuel Neuer (the goalkeeper) you would have told the ref that it was a goal even though if it was given it would have given England such a boost that we probably would have gone on to win the game?

[tonedepear]

Even if he had told the ref, the ref probably wouldn't have done anything. Remember Robbie Fowler telling whichever ref it was that it wasn't a penalty, and the ref made him take it anyway?

It also reminds me of when Di Canio caught that cross to stop play cos the keeper had gone down on the edge of the box looking injured. Everyone applauded him, but cushion face Redknapp couldn't hide the fact that he was quietly a bit annoyed with him for not just putting it in the net...

I also don't think Neuer saw it, from the replays. And no-one but him (not with all the still photos in the world) knows how well he could see it from his angle, in mid air, moving at speed.

[checkmatestokie]

I agree - no one in what passes for sport in today's world would have owned up, those days, even if they ever existed, are long gone - more's the pity!

But if the Germans had done, then sport in general and particularly football, would have benefited enormously in the long run.

In today's society it's dog eat dog and winner takes all, that's clearly borne out by the answers given to the original question by almost everyone on this board.

I had similar thoughts when the Tevez goal for Argentina against Mexico was shown to be clearly offside. Wouldn't it be great I thought if after the restart Argentina - knowing it wasn't a legal goal, had taken the ball and kicked it into their own net.

Then I woke up! The only occasions I can recall in modern times where such sportsmanship would take place is in golf and somewhat surprisingly given its image, snooker, where a player - Jimmy White springs to mind, occasionally incurs a substancial financial loss by calling a foul against himself.

[SneydGreenStokie]

Jun 28, 2010 9:00:51 GMT Billy_Britain_HCAFC said:

Geoff Hurst didn't own up..

What goes around, comes around

I agree - and it certainly has for you hasnt when you were mouthing off in your 1st 15 games in the prem. Look at you now. Closest you will get to the Prem is MOTD on a satdy night.

SGT

[StatesideStokie]

So the Germans have said that England's "goal" being disallowed is fine
and acceptable as it was simply Karma for the Russian Linesman Incident
in '66. Well said Germany, and on a similar note I have opened a
wonderfully legitimate new recreational shower chamber that 6 million
of you should pop along to, free of charge, and discuss the ins and
outs of your Karma theory.

[bayernoatcake]

Jun 29, 2010 22:30:55 GMT StatesideStokie said:

So the Germans have said that England's "goal" being disallowed is fine
and acceptable as it was simply Karma for the Russian Linesman Incident
in '66. Well said Germany, and on a similar note I have opened a
wonderfully legitimate new recreational shower chamber that 6 million
of you should pop along to, free of charge, and discuss the ins and
outs of your Karma theory.

Harsh ;D

[PotterLog]

Jun 29, 2010 16:31:24 GMT tonedepear said:

Even if he had told the ref, the ref probably wouldn't have done anything. Remember Robbie Fowler telling whichever ref it was that it wasn't a penalty, and the ref made him take it anyway?

I also don't think Neuer saw it, from the replays. And no-one but him (not with all the still photos in the world) knows how well he could see it from his angle, in mid air, moving at speed.

Most sensible post on here, that. It's unrealistic to expect the Germans to come forward because the truth is that none of them could have been "sure" about it either. I doubt Lampard was 100% certain about it until he saw the replay. The Germans had no advantage over the ref/linesman in terms of seeing it - what difference would one more voice have made? There was nothing to consult the linesman over because he didn't flag - you can't give a goal (or a foul, or a penalty, or whatever) just because someone tells you what they think they saw, no matter what side they're on.

This is all in sharp contrast to the Thierry Henry handball incident - in that case Henry flat-out knew what he had done and could easily have told the referee.

And by the way, still photographs don't "prove" anything.