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Post by GoBoks on Mar 13, 2022 19:52:27 GMT
Thanks for the effort of a very informative (also very biased) viewpoint. I still call BS on your comments that the world (not just the west, but it applies equally to them), is only involved because the majority of deaths are white people and your most recent comment that they’re not stopping the conflict just to keep oil flowing. If this degenerates into WW3, there won’t be any pieces left to pick up. Russia, China, Korea, and I suspect many Middle East countries and possibly India and the “Stan’s” against Europe, USA, Canada and Australia (with Africa and the rest of America watching from the sidelines) does not end well for anyone. That’s why more aggressive action is not being taken. Hopefully my last post on this back and forth: 1. ‘Biased’ what you call biased is from my perspective a consistent and coherent political viewpoint (which is extremely lacking in contemporary politics).I am a proud socialist and I start from the point of view of the working class. This viewpoint is underpinned by historical materialism - using the principles of science, reason, logic and evidence to understand politics. On this basis, I always stand on the side of the majority - real democracy of the working class and the oppressed. 2. I never said it being about white people being the only reason. The point was just about highlighting the different vastly differing narratives around these refugees. Syria for 10 years now, has experienced even worse devastation than currently in Ukraine with entire cities levelled, millions of refugees fleeing and when they try to get into the EU they are described as ‘security threats’, potential terrorists/members of ISIS and they are herded into refugee camps in Turkey and Greece. VISA restrictions aren’t dropped for them and they aren’t welcomed with warm arms into the EU. If not due to racism, what explains this vastly different approach on the part of the EU and the West? 3. I never said Ukraine was about keeping the oil flowing. That comment was just to explain Kuwait. I hope we can agree to disagree now and part amicably with us both having made our points clear. Agreed, it’s best to agree to disagree……. However, you did ask a question about the treatment of Syria. How many government condoned terrorist organizations are in Ukraine and how many are in Syria? charityandsecurity.org/country/syria/Any wonder there are concerns?
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Post by GoBoks on Mar 13, 2022 11:04:09 GMT
Wow! So far from reality it’s almost laughable. I suppose the reason “western governments” cared when Hitler kicked off was “ Nearly all of the casualties are white”? How about Vietnam, Kuwait, Korea, et al? Why do non-western governments care about the conflict in Ukraine? Not everything revolves around race or the EU. We have a nuclear super power flexing its muscles. I’ve got news for you ….. if nukes start being lobbed, suddenly people will stop worrying about superficial things (like skin color or the size of your bank account or petty political point scoring) and get down to what’s really important like saving lives. As you brought up Hitler, the context was that in the 1930s the Nazis had very close links with all of the European ruling classes. They were close ties to our royal family, most obviously with Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson. There was a serious attempt to bring fascism into mainstream politics with the British Union of Fascists (BUF), the 'Blackshirts' led by Sir Oswald Mosely. Who, as an aside, I am pleased to say didn't get elected as MP for Stoke despire his wife previously holding the seat. The BUF was supported by some of the main newspapers at the time with the Daily Mail running its infamous 1934 frontpage 'Hurrah for the Blackshirts.' What stopped fascism in it's tracks in the UK in the 30s was a large, popular anti-fascist movement. This culminated in the 1936 Battle for Cable Street It was organised working class people predominantly Irish and Jewish dockers in the East End but workers from all nationalities came together to oppose fascism. Newsreeel footage can be seen here link Despite the best efforts of the Metropolitan Police led by Sir Philip Game to ensure the safety of the fascists (you can see the horses charging the workers in the footage) only when it became clear that the police couldn't ensure their safety, did the blackshirts turn back and fascism had been stopped in the UK from becoming mainstream. Western governments were very reluctantly dragged into the Second World War as fascism was deemed to be incompatible with their form of capitalism because they had large, popular anti-fascist movements . Only in other countries where the workers movement was completely defeated (Germany in the late 1920s/early 1930s) did fascism rise to prominence. All the other wars you cited are various examples of imperialism (which as Lenin accurately described, is the highest stage of capitalism). Vietnam/Korea it was about the US combatting Communism. Kuwait it was about protecting oil supplies for the West. Non-western governments care about Ukraine for a large variety of different reasons which can't be generalised. All that can be said overall is that imperialism is a system with differing nation states competing militarily to ensure the best conditions for their own capitalist classes and corporations. For example, China is very interested to see what the response from the West is because, if Russia gets away with the conflict in Ukraine then it will embolden China to invade Taiwan. Ukraine poses a challenge for India because India’s of its strategic dependence on Russia, as well as its security priorities in the Indo-Pacific which requires strong support from the US - hence it is trying to navigate and balance this contradiction. This led it to abstain on the UN vote condemning the invasion. Thanks for the effort of a very informative (also very biased) viewpoint. I still call BS on your comments that the world (not just the west, but it applies equally to them), is only involved because the majority of deaths are white people and your most recent comment that they’re not stopping the conflict just to keep oil flowing. If this degenerates into WW3, there won’t be any pieces left to pick up. Russia, China, Korea, and I suspect many Middle East countries and possibly India and the “Stan’s” against Europe, USA, Canada and Australia (with Africa and the rest of America watching from the sidelines) does not end well for anyone. That’s why more aggressive action is not being taken.
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Post by GoBoks on Mar 12, 2022 15:59:26 GMT
Apart from the shot that hit the post, Duhaney has been dreadful. He’s a winger but he can’t take on a full back and beat him. He's not a winger he's a wing back, fuck knows what that is but probably not good enough to be either a full back or a winger. Gouranga. It's a new experimental role. It's called a "Thinger".
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Post by GoBoks on Mar 12, 2022 15:53:08 GMT
They are connected to too many influential, extremely wealthy people so they will be fine. If it was the likes of Barnsley who had Russian owners I wonder how much flexibility there would be there? I’m amazed that there’s been no challenge made re how they won their titles and because of whom. Surely if they’re going to look at his assets being frozen they should also look at removing titles like they did with Rangers. Regardless of who their new owner is as a club they will always be tainted now. The sanctions are a result of the invasion. Clearly when they won their titles, they did it legitimately (even if we don't agree with the concept of being able to buy titles). If we were to erase history everytime something changes in the world, England, South Africa, and just about every other nation probably wouldn't exist anymore. Going back and pretending to change history doen't achieve anything.
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Post by GoBoks on Mar 12, 2022 15:44:32 GMT
In case your elementary skills of deduction are failing you again “thevoidbetweenyourears”, it’s not a signature but rather only used for “special” individuals like yourself and is an invitation for you to piss off and enjoy your life instead of boring everyone on the Oatcake with your scintillating repartee. Have a great life and C’Mon Stoke! You sad bastard 😆 Oh, and invitation declined as unlike you I pay to watch the team and as such I'll comment on said team on a forum dedicated to it as I see fit. The Oatcake is not an echo chamber for managerial cheerleading I'm afraid. If you can't handle different opinions on the internet perhaps social media/messageboards aren't for you 🙂 Ditto Have a great life and C'Mon Stoke!
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Post by GoBoks on Mar 12, 2022 15:35:39 GMT
Not quite the same, but shades of Fuller!
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Post by GoBoks on Mar 12, 2022 15:33:45 GMT
Perhaps a logic teacher after you’ve mastered English. Have a great life and C’Mon Stoke! What's with the stupid 'Have a great life' signature you lunatic? 😆 (Rhetorical question again) In case your elementary skills of deduction are failing you again “thevoidbetweenyourears”, it’s not a signature but rather only used for “special” individuals like yourself and is an invitation for you to piss off and enjoy your life instead of boring everyone on the Oatcake with your scintillating repartee. Have a great life and C’Mon Stoke!
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Post by GoBoks on Mar 12, 2022 15:28:32 GMT
Yeeehah! C’Mon Stoke!
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Post by GoBoks on Mar 12, 2022 15:25:07 GMT
Difference being that a few days ago this message board was awash with folks touting that result as irrefutable evidence that we need a new manager. Yes, we’ve disappointed this year, but we have certainly come a long long way from when he took over. Anyway, let’s focus on today’s game and a resounding victory, please! These things happen in one off games. If you're comparing our season with Fulham's because we both drew at Barnlsey you're more in cloud cuckoo land than I first thought. Perhaps a logic teacher after you’ve mastered English. Have a great life and C’Mon Stoke!
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Post by GoBoks on Mar 12, 2022 15:19:34 GMT
C’Mon Stoke! The rest of the season starts now! That's the kind of pointless, bland nonsense your hero would say. What does it even mean? (Rhetorical question) Sorry “thevoidbetweenyourears”, I’m not an english teacher. Obviously you need one. Good Luck, Have a great life and C’Mon Stoke!
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Post by GoBoks on Mar 12, 2022 15:10:05 GMT
C’Mon Stoke! The rest of the season starts now!
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Post by GoBoks on Mar 12, 2022 15:05:36 GMT
Shocker! Higher team draws 1-1 at Barnsley with a late equalizer after dominating. Both Fulham and us for automatic promotion then .... oh wait a minute.... Difference being that a few days ago this message board was awash with folks touting that result as irrefutable evidence that we need a new manager. Yes, we’ve disappointed this year, but we have certainly come a long long way from when he took over. Anyway, let’s focus on today’s game and a resounding victory, please!
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Post by GoBoks on Mar 12, 2022 14:58:07 GMT
Shocker! Higher team draws 1-1 at Barnsley with a late equalizer after dominating.
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Post by GoBoks on Mar 12, 2022 14:06:25 GMT
Hello “thevoidbetweenyourears”! Have a great life and C’Mon Stoke! I have a great life thanks you utter weirdo. Now go and fap to Eugene Terre'blanche or whatever you Saffas get up to these days. No need to reply back either- I was talking about you not to you 🙂 As you so eloquently said earlier, “%@$# $#%$ @§$@“ or roughly translated “I’ll communicate with you however I like”. At least I have the integrity to address you directly and refrain from nationalistic bigotry instead of slinking around insulting you to others. Have a great life and C’mon Stoke!
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Post by GoBoks on Mar 12, 2022 13:42:21 GMT
Hello “thevoidbetweenyourears”! Have a great life and C’Mon Stoke!
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Post by GoBoks on Mar 12, 2022 13:40:43 GMT
Cheapest and best for now. I suspect cheapest would be to have Rory take over. I also suspect he’s not ready and it would not be long before “Delap Out” thread would appear. Which would be a shame as he is one of my fondest memories. (Still can’t believe Spurs keeper, Gomes, crying and clattering his own players because of Delap’s throws!)
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Post by GoBoks on Mar 12, 2022 13:10:08 GMT
My gut feeling is that i want MON to stay, at times this season we have played some really good stuff but not converted it into goals or wins. I’d give him another summer and see how we go. Cheapest option. Best option.
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Post by GoBoks on Mar 12, 2022 13:09:13 GMT
This thread has been running for a couple of months now. If people insist on putting their fickleness on permanent public display, can we at least change the title of the thread to something more accurate? Some suggestions: O’Neill Out Next Season Stoke is Crap Fickle r Us War on Loyalty Great Deluded Expectations The Three Wise Men Thread Let’s be a little different. Seems like every single Stoke manager gets the same old “<insert name> Out”. It all just becomes rather boring and tedious. At least the “Hughes Out” version was a little interesting because it started before he even arrived. C’Mon guys let’s kick it up a notch! GoBoks butthurt thread? 10 out of 10 for trying to be creative, but how does that actually relate to the 79 pages of content in this thread? Surely you’re not suggesting that this thread was created and kept going for my benefit?
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Post by GoBoks on Mar 12, 2022 12:29:02 GMT
Given it would take an equally amazing miracle for us to go up or down this year, our focus has to be on development of the core for next season. I think we should blood the youngsters but give them massive leeway in that the result is not critical but their ability to play with commitment and passion is an absolute must.
Bursik Smith Wilmot Jagielka Tymon Vrancic Powell Baker Campbell Tezgel Wright-Phillips
Ably supported by the usual suspects from the bench.
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Post by GoBoks on Mar 12, 2022 12:13:00 GMT
The match deciding the worst team in the division approaches. Really? What about the other 8 teams below us? Are they just automatically better than us because they’re not Stoke?
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Post by GoBoks on Mar 12, 2022 12:08:21 GMT
This thread has been running for a couple of months now. If people insist on putting their fickleness on permanent public display, can we at least change the title of the thread to something more accurate?
Some suggestions:
O’Neill Out Next Season Stoke is Crap Fickle r Us War on Loyalty
Great Deluded Expectations The Three Wise Men Thread
Let’s be a little different. Seems like every single Stoke manager gets the same old “<insert name> Out”. It all just becomes rather boring and tedious. At least the “Hughes Out” version was a little interesting because it started before he even arrived. C’Mon guys let’s kick it up a notch!
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Post by GoBoks on Mar 11, 2022 21:01:17 GMT
If they’re under a confidentiality agreement they don’t get to pick and choose what they will disclose. Pulisman has come on here and said “Believe me, we argue the toss on every point”, in an effort to give some reassurance that the council are not just a bunch of nodding heads. Who knows what was discussed under the innocuous sounding Covid heading. Maybe the desire to have 2 seats between every spectator……. The next day in the media the club read about how the CEO said that two thirds of the Stoke fans can go jump in the lake? It’s about how the message is perceived. You really don’t need to know the gory details. “ Covid protocols were discussed. The club will publish the new process agreed upon by the end of the week”. Really is all you need to know. And, if you want more, run for a position on the council. "We don't need to know the gory details!" "Really it's all you need to know" Know your place........... If you think you know even 10 % of what goes on behind closed doors in government, businesses, schools, hospitals or just about any organization (including Stoke), you are deluding yourself. In any case, in this case there is an easy fix. Run for council and then post your recordings of the meetings on here and see how that goes.
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Post by GoBoks on Mar 11, 2022 20:57:27 GMT
I actually agree with this, why penalise fans for wanting to support the team. If any ticket sales are made these will just be frozen anyway. I suppose you could say the same about Russian mainland sanctions. The Russian public aren't to blame for Putin's actions, but no doubt they'll be the ones who suffer far more than those in the Kremlin. The sanctions are designed so that the top echelons of business/society/politics have to change whatever they've been sanctioned for, before the whole lot comes crashing down on them as the bottoms rungs of society implode. The difference is that Chelsea fans cannot put any pressure on Putin, while the Russian public can. And penalizing Chelsea does not hurt Abramovich anymore, in fact I’d argue that he may be wishing them harm by now.
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Post by GoBoks on Mar 11, 2022 20:46:02 GMT
As StokieJoe says, some things just don’t want to be public. If you faced the constant risk of something you say to be thrown back in your face in the media, or with a mob of angry fans trying to lynch yo, you’d be very guarded and vague about anything you say which leads to non-discussion. “We’ll has look at it and get back to you” becomes the default response. I’d rather have a group of dedicated fans (after all they’re giving freely of their time and effort) having a meaningful discussion behind closed doors than a meaningless public forum. The example from the OP was around Covid, I'm simply struggling to come up with any scenario whereby a discussion around a global pandemic with all kinds of government regulations and guidelines in place would need to be shrouded in secrecy that's all? I just fail to see what would be cloak and dagger about it......... If they’re under a confidentiality agreement they don’t get to pick and choose what they will disclose. Pulisman has come on here and said “Believe me, we argue the toss on every point”, in an effort to give some reassurance that the council are not just a bunch of nodding heads. Who knows what was discussed under the innocuous sounding Covid heading. Maybe the desire to have 2 seats between every spectator……. The next day in the media the club read about how the CEO said that two thirds of the Stoke fans can go jump in the lake? It’s about how the message is perceived. You really don’t need to know the gory details. “ Covid protocols were discussed. The club will publish the new process agreed upon by the end of the week”. Really is all you need to know. And, if you want more, run for a position on the council.
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Post by GoBoks on Mar 11, 2022 16:06:04 GMT
As yet another person whose been on both sides, management and union, also been non executive director, may I give my two penneth. Most organisations which have items which are confidential keep two sets of the meetings, one set covers the confidential matters and is distributed only to the meeting membership and another that is the public part which can be widely distributed The point of minutes is to create a record if what took place, they should be sufficiently detailed to allow a non attender to gather what went on. The confidential meeting should be exactly that and never used merely to cover embarrassing situations or as a cover up. It is therefore a requirement that representatives agree to what is and what isn't confidential and the rest of us must trust their judgement or volunteer ourselves. What we must not do is criticise those who try if we are not prepared to do it ourselves. I agree with all of that having done pretty much the same roles as yourself. What I'm struggling with is any scenario where confidentiality would need to be applied, certainly not to the level that the OP seems to be alluding to. It's not pay negotiations, it's not a takeover or a tender process it's a council set up as a communication vehicle between the fans and the club.......... As StokieJoe says, some things just don’t want to be public. If you faced the constant risk of something you say to be thrown back in your face in the media, or with a mob of angry fans trying to lynch yo, you’d be very guarded and vague about anything you say which leads to non-discussion. “We’ll has look at it and get back to you” becomes the default response. I’d rather have a group of dedicated fans (after all they’re giving freely of their time and effort) having a meaningful discussion behind closed doors than a meaningless public forum.
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Post by GoBoks on Mar 11, 2022 15:58:48 GMT
C’Mon everyone! What do you think would happen if a verbatim report of what happened was posted? Yes, it’s not a nuclear defense secret, but the very next meeting would not only have sanitized minutes but sanitized responses “We’ll take that up with the Board”. Is that what we’d prefer? I for one would rather know that there is a strenuous dialogue and the ability to get the club’s reaction to important issues than be privy to a detailed account. If the Council is not doing a good job, the answer is simple, elect new members. But, just as we have seen with replacing 4 managers in quick succession, be careful what you wish for! To attack people when they try, within the confines of their contractual obligations, to provide information will result in them simply stopping to offer any insight. I don't think that we're asking for a verbatim report, just an accurate account of what was discussed and any agreed actions. Re if the council is doing a good job, how are we supposed to evaluate that if the minutes don't reflect the above. But they do. Covid protocols were discussed. The club will continue to adapt to ensure maximum flexibility while meeting safety concerns. Maybe not the detail you’d like, but again, the club is not under an obligation to have this type of interaction. If fans don’t like it, either run for election and raise the issue of greater transparency or let your feet do the talking. Shitting on the heads of those who are trying to get our views across is NOT the answer.
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Post by GoBoks on Mar 11, 2022 14:38:57 GMT
C’Mon everyone! What do you think would happen if a verbatim report of what happened was posted? Yes, it’s not a nuclear defense secret, but the very next meeting would not only have sanitized minutes but sanitized responses “We’ll take that up with the Board”. Is that what we’d prefer? I for one would rather know that there is a strenuous dialogue and the ability to get the club’s reaction to important issues than be privy to a detailed account. If the Council is not doing a good job, the answer is simple, elect new members. But, just as we have seen with replacing 4 managers in quick succession, be careful what you wish for!
To attack people when they try, within the confines of their contractual obligations, to provide information will result in them simply stopping to offer any insight.
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Post by GoBoks on Mar 11, 2022 13:57:33 GMT
Sacking one manager without a plan for a change in direction under a new manager would be pointless at this stage of the season….. Disagree I’ll see your disagree and raise you a disagree with your disagree.
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Post by GoBoks on Mar 11, 2022 13:54:15 GMT
There have been some comments recently (some of them quite derogatory) about the Stoke City Supporters Council, & I thought I'd share the following. I hope you find it interesting: I've only been on the Council a few months. Before that I was a Trade Union Shop Steward for many years. I didn't mention it to anyone (including Ang!) in case they thought I was some sort of crazed left wing firebrand! (which of course I am. 😁 ) Obviously the Union supplied extensive training on subjects such as negotiation, but common sense and pragmatism is equally important. I only mention this as someone (Malcolm?) suggested some training for council members. Believe me, Union training is quite intensive. As for comments on the Council minutes, I would like to make this observation: the minutes are a sanitised version of what actually happens. An example of this was our discussions with the club on their COVID procedures. This was a detailed and at times "passionate" exchange of opinions with facts and figures thrown around on a extremely important subject. This wasn't (as the rather dry minutes make it sound) an idle natter like it might be about the quality/temperature of food or the price of programmes. This was a full-on exchange on a life and death subject on how to keep our friends and family safe...and alive. So, what exact points did we individually make and what precise revelations did the club come out with? (& how pale did Tony Scholes go?!). Well, the answer (& you may not like this) is that it's confidential. In order to have such an open exchange, we agree on confidentiality so that we can talk openly (and so they will open up on deadly serious subjects like COVID). But that means you end up with these sanitised minutes which tell fans very little of what actually went on in the meeting. Now, before people pile in and complain about this "confidentiality", let me share this: how would it look if a Trade Union had represented an employee (perhaps you?) and then published minutes with that person's personal & private details & the company's alleged HR accusations? Or in a pay-negotiation, if the Union and the company shared confidential contracts and accounts during their meetings, should either then rush to the media and expose the other side? In order to keep dialogue open with the club, the council can really only show the tip of the iceberg on discussions. This may lead to fans feeling the minutes imply inertia on the part of the council or the club. This is not the case. Mind you, if you think this is hard, try being a company pension trustee (which I used to be)! When you report back - to what can be a worried & irate set of employees - you're only allowed to tell them about 5% of what you actually discussed at that big pension meeting!! And if you break confidentiality, you can very quickly find yourself in court! And as you're PERSONALLY LIABLE, you can lose your job, your house, everything! Interestingly, now Tony Scholes has gone, John Coates himself has attended the council meetings. His openness has been very refreshing, extraordinary in fact, but we are bound by confidentiality when it comes to reporting much of what we have learnt. It's frustrating, but there you go. So please bare this in mind when you consider the activities of the Council, particularly when reading the rather sanitised minutes. Remember these are local people, and dedicated Stoke City fans! They're given up their own time to put YOUR complaints and observations (rarely their own) to the chief exec or even the Chairman of the club. They are not evil dictators that bomb children's hospitals or deny visas to women & children fleeing genocide. They are people like you & me trying to do their best for supporters (albeit with a stoic chair & rabid shop-steward in their ranks! 😁) Excellent sensible post. We’re on opposite sides of the political spectrum, but it is good to know that the supporters council don’t sit passively and nod their heads at everything that was said. If the discussions were public, all you’d get is the same old BS that is thrown out at “meet the CEO” type events. People who want more need to either run for election to The Council or accept that the members are doing the job of at least letting the supporters views be known. I for one appreciate every Stokie who gives up his/her time to try and help the club be better. Good Job Council! Good Job Pulisman!
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Post by GoBoks on Mar 11, 2022 13:32:25 GMT
They played with 3 on in the end... I wonder if there’ll be any consequences for that I imagine they have contractual protections, but the old adage “any PR is good PR” applies. I’d never even heard of 3 before, but now I’m aware of the company. Free advertising. If I was Chelsea I’d put a blank patch over the logo! Chelsea football club are not the villains. Abramovich’s assets have been frozen, let the club continue to perform and use its assets ……as long as Abramovich does not benefit in any way.
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