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Post by oggyoggy on Oct 23, 2023 11:22:51 GMT
That's exactly what it is mate. Lammy has been towing the same line over the weekend too. As I said, they're a bunch of spineless, cowards, that disgust me. While I categorically agree with you on the moral front, the fact is if she answered Yes to that question, the whole MSM would be writing Labour off as Anti-Semitic and Labour would go down the same hell hole as Corbyn. I'm not saying that is right, nor that this would equate to the Corbyn situation but that is how politics is currently working in our country. We are in a fucking mess politically. Anyone who just says what they think and is ready to go with it gets ejected from the whole process, see Rory Stewart, Corbyn, Bridgen etc, etc (that is not to say I'm backing any of these btw) I was listening to an interview with Stewart yesterday and he was saying he wouldn't advise anyone he remotely cared for to go anywhere near politics in this country. It's a complete dead end if you have any human values. Thats the place we are at. The only way in at the moment seems to be the spineless route and that is a disaster for this country. the political choice is dire. Thats what happens when you don’t have a representative voting system. Have a look at the USA where their system is even worse and less democratic than ours! We need an independent regulator for MPs and ministers with powers to ban from ever holding public office for lies or corruption. We need a representative voting system.
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Post by oggyoggy on Oct 21, 2023 9:17:31 GMT
That injury to Toppers finger has rattled us after a very good start. Need to wrestle back some control here. I am worried. We desperately need a wicket to get into their 2 big hitters in next
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Post by oggyoggy on Oct 20, 2023 21:49:17 GMT
Someone who believes in those 4 things certainly should not be voting tory at the next election. Which is exactly my intention. I’ll vote Labour because 1 - I quite like Starmer because he does seem to have some integrity. 2 - The Tories have let the country down. 3 - I feel that a Labour party without Corbyn as leader suits me better. 4 - I genuinely believe that Labour care more about the working man more. Though they’re by no means perfect they’ve earnt their chance. I completely agree. Although because of our shoddy electoral system I will be voting lib dem as mine is a lib dem v tory seat.
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Post by oggyoggy on Oct 20, 2023 17:35:12 GMT
But it is labour who lack economic competence!
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Post by oggyoggy on Oct 20, 2023 17:33:48 GMT
I agree, the sad one about a relationship ending
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Post by oggyoggy on Oct 20, 2023 14:34:56 GMT
You are the one who started a thread whining about a musician you never have to listen to if you don’t want to. Stop moaning and switch songs! You don't have to read and contribute to threads you don't like...Bore Off Who says I don’t like the thread?
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Post by oggyoggy on Oct 20, 2023 14:34:20 GMT
Respects the law? It was law not to break covid rules, it was set up by the tories Which house got issued with the most fixed penalties in Britain? Go on have a guess cobs lad I’m not talking about the Tories I’m talking about me. Someone who believes in those 4 things certainly should not be voting tory at the next election.
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Post by oggyoggy on Oct 20, 2023 14:17:51 GMT
If I don’t like a particular musician, I tend to not listen to them. I certainly don’t start a thread whinging about them. Adele is one of the most successful musicians since she released her debut album. She writes her own songs which puts her head and shoulders above most She is extremely talented and I say that despite her music not being my cup of tea at all (so I don’t choose to listen to her). FFS aint you a barrel of laughs You are the one who started a thread whining about a musician you never have to listen to if you don’t want to. Stop moaning and switch songs!
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Post by oggyoggy on Oct 20, 2023 13:51:00 GMT
If I don’t like a particular musician, I tend to not listen to them. I certainly don’t start a thread whinging about them.
Adele is one of the most successful musicians since she released her debut album. She writes her own songs which puts her head and shoulders above most She is extremely talented and I say that despite her music not being my cup of tea at all (so I don’t choose to listen to her).
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Post by oggyoggy on Oct 20, 2023 11:03:58 GMT
So what is a Tory? Someone that votes for them? Someone who respects law and order? Someone who feels hard work should be rewarded and people shouldn’t get a free ride? Someone who believes in peaceful protest? I’m 3 of the 4 (I’ll let you decide what one I’m not). If I agree with three of those points am I wrong to not go with the 4th? A tory is someone who votes for them. The tory rule of the last 13 years did not respect law and order - see covid law breaking, crazy levels of corruption, abusive MPs and ministers, judges being told not to hand out prison sentences to convicted criminals because there is no space in prisons The tory rule of the last 13 years did not reward hard work. It rewards people who can get fast lane priority contracts to fraudulently claim money for PPE and that gets written off by your mate in power. The gap between the rich and the poor ever widens with tax breaks for the rich and higher taxes on poorer people to ensure they remain poor and the rich get richer. The tory rule of the last 13 years doesn’t believe in peaceful protest. See the public order bill used to clamp down on protest, peaceful or otherwise. Being a tory after the last 13 years means being either very rich, very well connected, or not caring at all for anyone.
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Post by oggyoggy on Oct 20, 2023 7:27:14 GMT
Repeat the swing in mid beds across the country and the tories end up with 20 seats!! What a disastrous result for the tories.
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Israel
Oct 19, 2023 15:36:26 GMT
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Post by oggyoggy on Oct 19, 2023 15:36:26 GMT
Do they have concentration camps in Israel? Come on Wannabee, you really think that Israel wouldn’t have already eradicated Palestine and invaded and killed everyone if they were like the Nazis and Palestinians like the Jews in Europe in this scenario? It is an absurd conparison. Anyway, I will let my Christian friends who live in Israel know that they have been lying to me about how they have experienced absolutely no problems living and working and bringing up their children in Israel because of their faith. The normalising of rockets fired into Israel and on occasion near their home or place of work is the biggest problem they have with living there. They obviously don’t know about life in Israel for anyone who is not Jewish, unlike you and others on this board do…. My view is Hamas are disgusting terrorists and have absolutely no excuse for their behaviour, and that the Israeli government is extreme and goes way too far in exercising their “right to defend their nation”. Both sides are at fault here and I can understand why Israel want to wipe Hamas off the map (which i think is unrealistic and they are going about it the wrong way) and I can understand why Hamas want to hurt Israel. I don’t understand why either side seems to not care about killing civilians or why they take hostages or persecute innocent people in their campaign against the other. I'm rather tired of repeating myself I have shown that the Israeli Constitution was changed in 2018 to enshrine the principals of Apartheid. It was passed by a narrow majority in the Knesset as by no means do all Jews or Legislators agree with the Policy. Many because they just don't think it's a solution to peace. The well respected Jerusalem based Human Rights Organisation B'Tselem call Israel an Apartheid State and that Israel is no longer a Democracy B'Tselem was founded in 1989 by a large group of Israeli lawyers, doctors and academics with the support of a lobby of ten members of Knesset. Its objective is to document human rights violations in the occupied territories (Gaza Strip and the West Bank) www.btselem.org/publications/fulltext/202101_this_is_apartheidAmnesty International call Israel an Apartheid State www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/02/israels-apartheid-against-palestinians-a-cruel-system-of-domination-and-a-crime-against-humanity/The Mafdal–Religious Zionism Party is Netanyahu's Coalition Partner in Government.... the clue is in the name. When Hitler came to power in 1933 all the objectives of the Nazis didn't suddenly spring into action. Gradual steps led to further erosion of Jewish Freedoms. The ultimate aim being a Homogeneous Ayran State. One of the first actions was to sign the Haavara Agreement with Zionist Jews in Germany (80,000) to buy their way out of Germany to resettle in Palestine. It wasn't until Kristallnacht in 1938 that the full ambition was laid bare removing all doubt as to their intentions Just because you do not see skeletal images of people doesn't mean oppression doesn't exist or that 2M people are not living in an open prison in Gaza, the size of the Isle of Wight, where their ability to come on go is restricted. The same could be said of the West Bank where 3M people reside and there is no Hamas influence and Israeli Law makes it Legal for Jewish Settlers to take over their property Communications are far more advanced now than in 1940 and overt acts similar to Nazis could not be stomached by Western Governments yet they allow the daily creep and let 7M people live under these conditions for Strategic and Economic Purposes I don't doubt your friend and his family may live happily in his cocoon. He is not an immediate threat and maybe his appearance has something to do with it. 75% of Christians are Arab. You have been provided with instances of harassment of Christians which are increasing Its not that difficult to do your own research Nobody is saying Hamas is anything other than an Evil Terrorist Organisation. Rafah the Palestinian Party "In Power" in the West Bank renounce violence but Apartheid exists there Remove the reasons for Hamas to exist and maybe the Palestinian people will elect people to represent them in a peaceful one or two State coexistence I basically agree with what you are saying, other than the Nazi comparison. In my opinion Israel has a very long way downhill to get to there but there are some similarities as you have pointed out. I completely agree that Netanyahu wants Hamas to exist so he can justify his persecution of Palestinians.
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Israel
Oct 19, 2023 12:06:56 GMT
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Post by oggyoggy on Oct 19, 2023 12:06:56 GMT
What about the many Christians or atheists in Israel that thrive? Zionists would need to persecute them too. So perhaps apartheid is a better word to use as it is only aimed at a particular group of society. But it still isn’t ethnic cleansing in my opinion. They are not murdering anyone who is Muslim or eradicating then from the region altogether. Hamas would murder all Jewish people if given the chance so you can then understand why Israel feel they have to be very strong in their response. They don’t want Hamas to have the chance to repeat their attack. Comparisons to nazi Germany (not something you have done but others have) are incorrect. Israel are being very firm in their response, and this ground invasion still hasn’t happened. Both sides are in the wrong. Good Grief Oggy you must lead a sheltered life Oggy or else you're a denier Of course Christians get grief in Israel, just not as much as.Muslims, especially in Jerusalem where their dwindling numbers remain The whole Constitution was updated in 2018 to enshrine this much to the delight of Netanyahu and his chums in Government The first three Articles are 1 it states that “the right to exercise national self-determination” in Israel is “unique to the Jewish people.” 2 It establishes Hebrew as Israel’s official language 3 It establishes “Jewish settlement as a national value” and mandates that the state “will labor to encourage and promote its establishment and development.” Taking all three together it obvious the direction of travel Just earlier this month, a few days before the Hamas attack, it was widely reported the harrassment of Christians in Jerusalem. Unusually Netanyahu criticised it because he needs to keep UD on board. amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/03/video-of-ultra-orthodox-jews-spitting-by-christians-in-jerusalem-sparks-outrageHere is an example of how the Jewish Settlers operate by seizing property of Christians not just Muslims www.middleeastmonitor.com/20220630-israel-court-orders-settlers-to-evacuate-christian-properties-in-jerusalem/I have no problem comparing Israel's current Government to the Nazis in fact I have in a previous post. Both their aims were/are aligned The ethnic cleansing of all other minorities from Israel/Palastine. Not all Jews support this either in Israel or outside but this present Zionist Government does. Apartheid = The Practice Zionists = The Practitioners Do they have concentration camps in Israel? Come on Wannabee, you really think that Israel wouldn’t have already eradicated Palestine and invaded and killed everyone if they were like the Nazis and Palestinians like the Jews in Europe in this scenario? It is an absurd conparison. Anyway, I will let my Christian friends who live in Israel know that they have been lying to me about how they have experienced absolutely no problems living and working and bringing up their children in Israel because of their faith. The normalising of rockets fired into Israel and on occasion near their home or place of work is the biggest problem they have with living there. They obviously don’t know about life in Israel for anyone who is not Jewish, unlike you and others on this board do…. My view is Hamas are disgusting terrorists and have absolutely no excuse for their behaviour, and that the Israeli government is extreme and goes way too far in exercising their “right to defend their nation”. Both sides are at fault here and I can understand why Israel want to wipe Hamas off the map (which i think is unrealistic and they are going about it the wrong way) and I can understand why Hamas want to hurt Israel. I don’t understand why either side seems to not care about killing civilians or why they take hostages or persecute innocent people in their campaign against the other.
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Post by oggyoggy on Oct 19, 2023 7:58:29 GMT
No it isn’t illegal. Because the rich people who run the country want a legal way for them to not pay as much tax as someone like me who has very little capital but a good income. They make it impossible for me to avoid tax but Rishi Sunak can and he is extremely rich. It is completely wrong and immoral and should be better regulated. If Sunak is earning a wage he will be paying tax. “ According to the summary of his tax return, Sunak has made £4.8m over the previous three tax years. Only about £410,000 of that came from his MP and ministerial salary, however, with almost everything else coming from interest, dividends and capital gains on his US-based investments. ” “ In total the prime minister paid just over £1m in UK tax over the course of the three years, giving him an effective tax rate of 22%.” My effective rate of tax for the last tax year was 30% plus 5% NI. I did not make anywhere close to £4.8m or £410k salary. When I earn about a quarter of the income he does, why does he pay a lower percentage of tax?
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Post by oggyoggy on Oct 19, 2023 7:45:40 GMT
No. It isn’t ok for those few people to abuse the system. But a far bigger problem is the rich tax avoidance. Also, take someone who may have worked a little, cash in hand, claimed benefits, could have worked more, perhaps did a stint in prison - when they retire, should they be left to die homeless in the street? Should they be given a home? Should they have food to eat? What would you do with them? It costs less to society to house them and give them a miserly sum to live off than to abandon them. There has to be some balance. The problem with our society is that money equals an easy life and plenty of opportunities you don’t have to work for. The poorer you are, the harder you have to work for everything. In order to make society more equal, we must reduce the gap between the richest and the poorest to create more of a level playing field. Equal opportunities so the best can prosper regardless of upbringing and background. That can only happen by taxing the seriously wealthy properly. Even taxing them as much as I am taxed would be a start. Then we can improve public services and education and opportunities and actually level up opportunities regardless as to whether you are a working class lad from stoke on trent or born into the aristocracy and heading to Eton. If people are given opportunities they generally won’t choose to do nothing with their life and scrounge off the state. Because they can see a better life for themselves. It is only when that better life looks impossible that people give up and do nothing. So you can tackle both issues in one go. Tax the rich and make their life a tiny bit harder, and use the money to provide opportunities for the poor to massively improve their chances for a better life. Tax avoidance is not illegal. Chances are most people on this thread do it. No it isn’t illegal. Because the rich people who run the country want a legal way for them to not pay as much tax as someone like me who has very little capital but a good income. They make it impossible for me to avoid tax but Rishi Sunak can and he is extremely rich. It is completely wrong and immoral and should be better regulated.
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Israel
Oct 19, 2023 7:41:17 GMT
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Post by oggyoggy on Oct 19, 2023 7:41:17 GMT
What about the many Christians or atheists in Israel that thrive? Zionists would need to persecute them too. So perhaps apartheid is a better word to use as it is only aimed at a particular group of society. But it still isn’t ethnic cleansing in my opinion. They are not murdering anyone who is Muslim or eradicating then from the region altogether. Hamas would murder all Jewish people if given the chance so you can then understand why Israel feel they have to be very strong in their response. They don’t want Hamas to have the chance to repeat their attack. Comparisons to nazi Germany (not something you have done but others have) are incorrect. Israel are being very firm in their response, and this ground invasion still hasn’t happened. Both sides are in the wrong. Christians in Israel thrive? 20% of Palestinians in the West Bank are Christian. Just like Muslims they suffer under military law, night raids, demolitions, settler terrorism impunity, land theft, checkpoints, harassment and have the wrong coloyr ID to go to the church of the holy sepulcre in Jerusalem only a few miles away. Only few weeks ago an Israeli ministers response to being shown a video of Jews spitting on Christians was to say not only was it not illegal, but that "its an old Jewish tradition to spit on Christians" Yet I have friends who are professionals who live in Israel. They are christian, as are their children, and they love it there and face none of what you say above.
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Israel
Oct 19, 2023 6:42:22 GMT
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Post by oggyoggy on Oct 19, 2023 6:42:22 GMT
So it's apartheid now and not zionism? I wish you'd make your mind up. Don't be such a Numpty, Oggy claimed 18.1% of Muslims live in Israel so his conclusion was therefore Israel couldn't be Zionist. He didn't make the connection that Apartheid is being practiced against the 18.1% Muslims which is being pursued by Zionists and not ordinary Jews. Do catch up. What about the many Christians or atheists in Israel that thrive? Zionists would need to persecute them too. So perhaps apartheid is a better word to use as it is only aimed at a particular group of society. But it still isn’t ethnic cleansing in my opinion. They are not murdering anyone who is Muslim or eradicating then from the region altogether. Hamas would murder all Jewish people if given the chance so you can then understand why Israel feel they have to be very strong in their response. They don’t want Hamas to have the chance to repeat their attack. Comparisons to nazi Germany (not something you have done but others have) are incorrect. Israel are being very firm in their response, and this ground invasion still hasn’t happened. Both sides are in the wrong.
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Israel
Oct 18, 2023 20:26:58 GMT
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Post by oggyoggy on Oct 18, 2023 20:26:58 GMT
Or one who has had their children murdered and raped by Hamas perhaps. And ethnically cleansing the West Bank helps those poor bastards who lost a loved one how exactly? I guess if you are Jewish and you value the historical significance of that land then living there isn’t ethnic cleansing. If Israel’s policy is ethnic cleansing, why haven’t they done it yet? They more than have the military might and capability. Do Hamas help or hinder the Palestinian cause against the apparent ethnic cleansing? Hamas would definitely murder all Jews if it could or ethnically cleanse them. Israel could have invaded all areas of Palestine for many years and haven’t. They have a bit, but by no means completely. So it suggests they are not looking to eradicate all Palestinians. Just some. Both are wrong and it is terrible. The majority of people in Israel and Palestine just want peace and to be able to live a quiet life. Hamas and the Israeli government make that impossible sadly.
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Israel
Oct 18, 2023 20:05:22 GMT
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Post by oggyoggy on Oct 18, 2023 20:05:22 GMT
I think you need to ask an Israeli those questions. My guess is that it is partly because of the historical significance of the area for Jews, and i have also heard it is for some reason of strategic military importance (I don’t understand why). I don’t know anything about Hamas and specific links between the organisation and the West Bank but I imagine they oppose Israeli occupation and settlements if I had to guess. You say you don't know anything about Hamas. They are a terrorist organization supported by Iran , committed to the violent overthrow of Israel and extermination of Jews. There have been 1000s of rockets fired into Israel over the last 20 years. When elected to power in Gaza they got rid of political opposition. They deny women equal rights www.theguardian.com/world/2021/feb/15/women-male-guardian-hamas-gaza-stripThey persecute homosexuals. Because of their terrorism many Arab countries' governments want rid or them. How comfortable is an absolute monarchy like Saudi Arabia with terrorism on their doorstep? Egypt want to keep the border with Gaza closed to stop Hamas infiltrating their country. I know about Hamas. I don’t know about any specific links to the West Bank though.
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Israel
Oct 18, 2023 20:03:46 GMT
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Post by oggyoggy on Oct 18, 2023 20:03:46 GMT
18.1% of the population of Israel are Muslim. So zionism isn’t practiced in Israel. Oggy you either have an agenda or ignorant of the facts but this is the most stupid comment I've seen on this thread The fact? Or have I got zionism wrong? I thought zionism was about having only a jewish race. So you wouldn’t have any Muslims or Christians etc. but clearly that is not Israel. Or have I got the definition of Zionism wrong?
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Israel
Oct 18, 2023 20:02:14 GMT
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Post by oggyoggy on Oct 18, 2023 20:02:14 GMT
I think you need to ask an Israeli those questions. My guess is that it is partly because of the historical significance of the area for Jews, and i have also heard it is for some reason of strategic military importance (I don’t understand why). I don’t know anything about Hamas and specific links between the organisation and the West Bank but I imagine they oppose Israeli occupation and settlements if I had to guess. Citing the West Bank never suits the argument, it’s an area that absolutely is an example of ethnic cleansing, and one largely free from the terrors of Hamas. Do I ask someone born and bred in Israel, or a European/American “Israeli” settler who has stolen the property of a Palestinian because it’s “their right?” Or one who has had their children murdered and raped by Hamas perhaps.
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Israel
Oct 18, 2023 19:05:52 GMT
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Post by oggyoggy on Oct 18, 2023 19:05:52 GMT
I get the point you are making. Ultimately if Israelis wanted to conquer Palestine and rid the place of Muslims they have had the means to do it for years and have never done it. The vast majority of Israelis want to get rid of Hamas but not the Muslim population. Indeed many Muslims live in Israel. I have no doubt if the shoe was on the other foot, Hamas would have eradicated all Jews from the area. How does that explain the attacks on the west bank then as well as the land grabbing? This thread was made in July after Iarael attacked a refugee camp there. What's the west bank got to do with hamas? I think you need to ask an Israeli those questions. My guess is that it is partly because of the historical significance of the area for Jews, and i have also heard it is for some reason of strategic military importance (I don’t understand why). I don’t know anything about Hamas and specific links between the organisation and the West Bank but I imagine they oppose Israeli occupation and settlements if I had to guess.
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Israel
Oct 18, 2023 19:00:17 GMT
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Post by oggyoggy on Oct 18, 2023 19:00:17 GMT
Which is completely wrong. But not the same as zionism (as I understand it) or genocide or ethnic cleansing. Israel has a guaranteed Jewish majority. Which is why Palestine can't be annexed completely as the demographic of greater Israel would then not be. And why three quarters of a million Palestinians were chased out of the lands of current state of Israel in 1948. The expression "a land without a people for a people without a land" had erasure of Palestinians at its core. Many scared and hopefull Jews moved there believing it. Understandably. In my opinion the state policy is absolutely ethnic cleansing and the current Israeli calls for a second Nakba should leave people in no doubt where we are. It's all heartbreaking. Interesting take. I think the vast majority of Israelis want Hamas eradicated and that’s it.
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Post by oggyoggy on Oct 18, 2023 17:48:00 GMT
18.1% of the population of Israel are Muslim. So zionism isn’t practiced in Israel. Racist apartheid exists - Palestinians living Israel are second class citizens, are excluded from work, discriminated against through laws etc. Which is completely wrong. But not the same as zionism (as I understand it) or genocide or ethnic cleansing.
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Post by oggyoggy on Oct 18, 2023 17:37:58 GMT
So you don’t think Judaism existed in the area before 1948? Like the guy who has led to us being able to refer to 1948 as 1948. It is far more complex then you have made it sound above. Judaism and Zionism are two completely separate things. Judaism - Jewish faith/religion. It has existed for thousands of years. Zionism - belief in an ethnically exclusive nation-state of just Jews. Zionism was founded in 1897 by Theodor Herzl. Originally they were looking at settling in South America. Then they realised that they could get more traction by tying to closer to the Jewish faith and returning to the concept of their original homeland. This tied well with the interests of British (and subsequently US) imperialism which wanted a client state in the region to secure access to the vital oil supplies. Lots of Jews are against Zionism for many reasons. 18.1% of the population of Israel are Muslim. So zionism isn’t practiced in Israel.
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Israel
Oct 18, 2023 17:35:41 GMT
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Post by oggyoggy on Oct 18, 2023 17:35:41 GMT
There have been loads of wars in the region for the last 2000 years. I know they haven’t all been Palestine v Israel / muslims v jews. I don’t think it is right to say there was peace in the region until 1948. He didn't say until 1948. He said until the Zionist agenda. And what does that even mean?
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Israel
Oct 18, 2023 17:34:43 GMT
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Post by oggyoggy on Oct 18, 2023 17:34:43 GMT
Context: Netanyahu has refused to allow aid in via Israel, despite the UK and the US requesting this but he has agreed to stop bombing the Egypt/Gaza border to allow aid in via the Rafah crossing. Netanyahu sounds like an absolute bellend. Is he stupid or does he want a forever war? He wants power. The best way to sure up your support is a good war against the old enemy…
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Post by oggyoggy on Oct 18, 2023 17:33:29 GMT
I don’t think that is quite true I'm talking historically not just in the lead up to 1948................. There have been loads of wars in the region for the last 2000 years. I know they haven’t all been Palestine v Israel / muslims v jews. I don’t think it is right to say there was peace in the region until 1948.
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Post by oggyoggy on Oct 18, 2023 17:10:10 GMT
So you don’t think Judaism existed in the area before 1948? Like the guy who has led to us being able to refer to 1948 as 1948. It is far more complex then you have made it sound above. It certainly is more complex But that doesn’t alter the fact that over the decades the Israeli administration has committed ethnic cleansing land grabbing And a drop of genocide I get the point you are making. Ultimately if Israelis wanted to conquer Palestine and rid the place of Muslims they have had the means to do it for years and have never done it. The vast majority of Israelis want to get rid of Hamas but not the Muslim population. Indeed many Muslims live in Israel. I have no doubt if the shoe was on the other foot, Hamas would have eradicated all Jews from the area.
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Post by oggyoggy on Oct 18, 2023 17:07:13 GMT
So you don’t think Judaism existed in the area before 1948? Like the guy who has led to us being able to refer to 1948 as 1948. It is far more complex then you have made it sound above. Jews lived perfectly peacefully with their Arab neighbours in Palestine and the surrounding areas until the Zionist agenda............ I don’t think that is quite true
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