|
Post by Hiram on Oct 15, 2009 22:34:46 GMT
do you think you could expand on that a little?
|
|
|
Post by onetruepotter on Oct 15, 2009 22:37:40 GMT
can you explain what it is? I genuinely have no idea what it means. A united Britain, no matter what race or religion. yes but Id like to add....a fair Britain where white people arent treated as 2nd class citizens and feel guilty for been patriotic and a Britian where we dont have to tip toe around ethnics incase they might get "offended". A Britian where been white doesnt mean been put to the back of the housing que in favour of asylum seekers etc..A Britian where black and white is the same, and when I say the same I mean the same, not one rule for one and one for the other
|
|
|
Post by Hiram on Oct 15, 2009 22:43:11 GMT
A united Britain, no matter what race or religion. yes but Id like to add....a fair Britain where white people arent treated as 2nd class citizens and feel guilty for been patriotic and a Britian where we dont have to tip toe around ethnics incase they might get "offended". A Britian where been white doesnt mean been put to the back of the housing que in favour of asylum seekers etc..A Britian where black and white is the same, and when I say the same I mean the same, not one rule for one and one for the other when you say 'white' people, do you mean British people?
|
|
|
Post by onetruepotter on Oct 15, 2009 22:49:59 GMT
yes but Id like to add....a fair Britain where white people arent treated as 2nd class citizens and feel guilty for been patriotic and a Britian where we dont have to tip toe around ethnics incase they might get "offended". A Britian where been white doesnt mean been put to the back of the housing que in favour of asylum seekers etc..A Britian where black and white is the same, and when I say the same I mean the same, not one rule for one and one for the other when you say 'white' people, do you mean British people? when I say white I mean white British people, make sure you undertand what I say tho...Black and White = Both British = Both as equal as each other = Neither get specail treatment = Whites arent treated as 2nd class citizens = white dont get forced to feel guilty for shows of patriotism = A fair Britian where EVERYONE gets treated the same NO SPECIAL treatment or Positive discrimination (which is racist)..Equality means exactly that.
|
|
|
Post by french toast on Oct 15, 2009 22:51:01 GMT
Ahhh i see bosted has found this thread. Excellent. We will get a really balanced view now
|
|
|
Post by Hiram on Oct 15, 2009 22:54:59 GMT
is British nationalism based on the premise that white British people are discriminated against and want equality with non-white British people who are perceived by British nationalists as getting better treatment than 'white British' people?
|
|
|
Post by french toast on Oct 15, 2009 22:56:57 GMT
Who gives a fuck we aint got it bad. We could have it much much worse
|
|
|
Post by onetruepotter on Oct 15, 2009 22:57:04 GMT
is British nationalism based on the premise that white British people are discriminated against and want equality with non-white British people who are perceived by British nationalists as getting better treatment than 'white British' people? Not really, but white British people who feel the way you have just described tend to vote British Nationalist, (BNP) hence the popularity in Stoke-On-Trent and in other areas.
|
|
|
Post by Ariel Manto on Oct 15, 2009 22:57:35 GMT
do you think you could expand on that a little? It was actually I who first coined "British Nationalism" on this thread and I did it deliberately. Ideologically, British Nationalism cannot exist as, quite simply, Britain is not a nation. England, Scotland, Wales & Northern Ireland are and - taken to a natural conclusion - Scotland, Wales and the Irish all have their own nationalist parties who are all non-racist. If you take this principle away from the ideology of the BNP then you only have one strand left - the xenophobic. They're in a bit of a political pickle at the moment - their constitution is illegal, their name is a bone of contention. It is perhaps heretical to say this to some folks on here - but I, for one, am rather looking forward to next Thursday's BBC "Question Time".
|
|
|
Post by onetruepotter on Oct 15, 2009 23:02:38 GMT
do you think you could expand on that a little? It was actually I who first coined "British Nationalism" on this thread and I did it deliberately. Ideologically, British Nationalism cannot exist as, quite simply, Britain is not a nation. England, Scotland, Wales & Northern Ireland are and - taken to a natural conclusion - Scotland, Wales and the Irish all have their own nationalist parties who are all non-racist. If you take this principle away from the ideology of the BNP then you only have one strand left - the xenophobic. They're in a bit of a political pickle at the moment - their constitution is illegal, their name is a bone of contention. It is perhaps heretical to say this to some folks on here - but I, for one, am rather looking forward to next Thursday's BBC "Question Time". 1) Britain IS a nation 2) You didnt coin the phrase "British Nationalism" 3) If the BNP stand up for the rights of white working class Briton then they are fine by me, cuz none of the other partys give a fuck about us 4) why do you have a picture of Bradley from Eastenders on your sig?
|
|
|
Post by Hiram on Oct 15, 2009 23:03:22 GMT
just out of interest, what do you think the difference between British nationalism and English nationalism is given that other nationalisms in the UK are not really connected to a British nationalism as the BNP might portray it?
|
|
|
Post by onetruepotter on Oct 15, 2009 23:06:20 GMT
just out of interest, what do you think the difference between British nationalism and English nationalism is given that other nationalisms in the UK are not really connected to a British nationalism as the BNP might portray it? English nationalists work for the good of England alone British Nationalists work for the good of Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland as one united country = Britian
|
|
|
Post by Hiram on Oct 15, 2009 23:07:59 GMT
I'd agree that Britain (or the UK at least) is a nation - you only have to look at your passport under the part that describes your nationality as 'British' to see that politically at least it is true. In terms of international recognition Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are not nations - stateless nations, yes, nation states, no.
|
|
|
Post by Hiram on Oct 15, 2009 23:09:26 GMT
Would English and British nationalists, theoreticlly, be enemies then?
|
|
|
Post by french toast on Oct 15, 2009 23:11:37 GMT
I can see where this is going billy
|
|
|
Post by onetruepotter on Oct 15, 2009 23:14:17 GMT
I'd agree that Britain (or the UK at least) is a nation - you only have to look at your passport under the part that describes your nationality as 'British' to see that politically at least it is true. In terms of international recognition Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are not nations - stateless nations, yes, nation states, no. spot on...and no English nationalist and British nationalist wouldnt be enemys. ...and 1000 - I can see exaclty where its goin as well ...Im just humouring folk ;D...two can play that game..
|
|
|
Post by french toast on Oct 15, 2009 23:16:40 GMT
Im not getting into this one otp. Haha. Fuck it cant be arsed. More important things in life than this bollocks
|
|
|
Post by Hiram on Oct 15, 2009 23:22:15 GMT
I wish you wouldn't humour me - I genuinely don't get the concept of British nationalism cos it seems so full of contradictions. All I'm asking for is a defintion of what it is that goes beyond 'we believe in a united Britain' - all other political viewpoints have some basic tenants to support their ideologies and while I may not agree with them or the BNP, I'd like to at least understand what they are based on and what they mean. I don't judge anyone or deny anyone the right to believe what they want - it's a free country, in theory - but I would like the to BNP to back up their beliefs with some kind of rationale.
|
|
|
Post by onetruepotter on Oct 15, 2009 23:23:51 GMT
Im not getting into this one otp. Haha. Fuck it cant be arsed. More important things in life than this bollocks couldnt agree more mate, thats why Im goin leave it now, as long as they know the British people are here and here to stay and more importantly as long as I know..thats all that matters...I can do one of two things, log off and give me half caste mrs a good seeing to. Or stay on here talking to P.C leftys who are not capable of understanding the real world. ..Its not a hard decision is it..I know what id rather do..so laters peeps ;D
|
|
|
Post by mumf14 on Oct 15, 2009 23:31:48 GMT
do you think you could expand on that a little? It was actually I who first coined "British Nationalism" on this thread and I did it deliberately. Ideologically, British Nationalism cannot exist as, quite simply, Britain is not a nation. England, Scotland, Wales & Northern Ireland are and - taken to a natural conclusion - Scotland, Wales and the Irish all have their own nationalist parties who are all non-racist. If you take this principle away from the ideology of the BNP then you only have one strand left - the xenophobic. They're in a bit of a political pickle at the moment - their constitution is illegal, their name is a bone of contention. It is perhaps heretical to say this to some folks on here - but I, for one, am rather looking forward to next Thursday's BBC "Question Time". Jay...I think you need to look up nation in the dictionary. Nation definition ; COMMONWEALTH,COMMUNITY,COUNTRY,PEOPLE,POPULATION,RACE,POPULATION,TRIBE. Nation is a very ambiguous, loose fitting word to a number of subjects and principles. Regardless of the race argument that seems to be coming up every 5 minutes , I fail to see the point in wasting ones vote on a gang of idiotic thugs who have about as much chance of government as I have of winning the pools. Can you imagine a time when our BNP health minister broadcasts to the nation sporting a skinhead haircut with nazi tattoos on both arms and puffing on a woodbine....Eh..? We're talking fantasy Island here...
|
|
|
Post by Ariel Manto on Oct 15, 2009 23:50:14 GMT
Oh, I hate to get picky. The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is our sovereign state. The nation-state is a certain form of state that derives its political legitimacy from serving as a sovereign entity for a nation as a sovereign territorial unit. However, the UK is almost unique in the world as it is a conglomerate of nations which do not have full sovereignty, hence the term multi-national state which is applied to the UK. England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are the nations which go to make up the state of the UK & Northern Ireland, hence the three devolved national administrations in Edinburgh, Cardiff and Belfast, the capitals of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland respectively. In fact, England is the only member of the UK without a national administration. Britain (or Great Britain) is simply the island comprising England, Scotland and Wales. In terms of nation-state (which I deliberately haven't used) we collectively use the UK moniker. However, this does not detract from the fact that Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland all have their nationalist parties which are not xenophobic in nature.
|
|
|
Post by mumf14 on Oct 16, 2009 0:00:37 GMT
So you concede that Britain is a nation and not as you previously stated....? "Britain is not a nation.."
|
|
|
Post by Ariel Manto on Oct 16, 2009 0:11:12 GMT
No, read again. Britain (or United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland as some would deem it) is the sovereign state. England, Scotland, Wales & Northern Ireland are the nations (3 of which have NATIONAL administrations or parliaments) each of which comprise the multi-nation state of the United Kingdom.
|
|
|
Post by mumf14 on Oct 16, 2009 0:17:04 GMT
Britain is still a nation....It says so in the dictionary.
Ever heard the expression....Britain is a nation of Dog lovers..Wuff Wuff....
|
|
|
Post by mumf14 on Oct 16, 2009 0:19:22 GMT
The National Anthem..
The British National Party.
The NSPCC.
|
|
|
Post by Ariel Manto on Oct 16, 2009 0:27:56 GMT
"Nation" is commonly used in informal discourse as a synonym for state or country, but a nation is not identical to a state. People in the UK are called British although they have different nationalities. In fact, re-labelling nationalities on grounds of consistency—making every UK citizen "British", or converting each of those labelled "British" into their constituent nationalities—is strongly discouraged. Such imposed uniformity cannot, in any case, be sustained. National anthems of Scotland, Wales & Northern Ireland. National football teams
|
|
|
Post by mumf14 on Oct 16, 2009 0:35:36 GMT
So I was right afterall....Def :People living in the same country/ nation: or under the same government.
|
|
|
Post by Ariel Manto on Oct 16, 2009 0:43:01 GMT
If you think so. The Scottish, Welsh & Northern Irish have devolved governments/parliaments/assemblies? Scotland has its own legal, education, tax raising powers amongst others and only falls under the UK for social security, defence, international relations and broadcasting. Nationality and nationhood are particularly problematic beasts for us.
|
|
|
Post by Ariel Manto on Oct 16, 2009 0:47:17 GMT
So I was right afterall....Def :People living in the same country/ nation: or under the same government. Britain (or the UK) is a multi-national state, not a nation. There is an important distinction.
|
|
|
Post by mumf14 on Oct 16, 2009 0:48:43 GMT
Jay.....It's not what I think son...I am merely here to steer you away from over complicating yourself in a desperate attempt to admit defeat. I am just reporting what it says in three dictionary's I have....and I'm running out fast. ;D ;D
|
|