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Post by iilforddave on Jul 13, 2009 18:17:18 GMT
right i've just watched funky's video "myth busting" my arse , the plane is clearly moving forward through the air, its passing the cones, if it was "Stationary" relative to the scenary and still took off then they would have bust the myth
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Post by bondygodfatherleek on Jul 13, 2009 18:18:46 GMT
I've just had a marvelous bath. and been though two pages of real Intellectual thought. But the answer to the question will it take off is a resounding No 8-)Bondy
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Post by beagriestache on Jul 13, 2009 18:28:50 GMT
How many baths do you have me old china?!
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Post by neoisd1 on Jul 13, 2009 18:35:18 GMT
right i've just watched funky's video "myth busting" my arse , the plane is clearly moving forward through the air, its passing the cones, if it was "Stationary" relative to the scenary and still took off then they would have bust the myth The point is can the plane take off on a treadmill and not will the plane take off while appearing stationary on a treadmill. Because a planes engine is independent of its wheels it can move forward on a treadmill and take off, once the plane picks up speed the air moves faster over the flat top of the wing and moves slower over the curved underside of the wing and lift is created. So the answer to, "can a plane take off on a moving treadmill?" is a simple yes.
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Post by starkiller on Jul 13, 2009 18:37:14 GMT
Ground speed is irrelevant. Air speed is what you need. Simple.
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Post by bondygodfatherleek on Jul 13, 2009 18:42:56 GMT
How many baths do you have me old china?! Well Beargrie mate I've had two today. One after I came back from hospital, never quite feel right when I've been there and one to relax these weary bones. But You have ruined my bit of silliness for today, which helps in a way to take my mind of this dreadful pain(that bath up passed my hip bones is pure heaven) Yo haven't asked me why in my opinion The Plane won';t take off 8-)Bondy
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Post by beagriestache on Jul 13, 2009 18:46:25 GMT
right i've just watched funky's video "myth busting" my arse , the plane is clearly moving forward through the air, its passing the cones, if it was "Stationary" relative to the scenary and still took off then they would have bust the myth The point is can the plane take off on a treadmill and not will the plane take off while appearing stationary on a treadmill. Because a planes engine is independent of its wheels it can move forward on a treadmill and take off, once the plane picks up speed the air moves faster over the flat top of the wing and moves slower over the curved underside of the wing and lift is created. So the answer to, "can a plane take off on a moving treadmill?" is a simple yes. Yes a plane can take off on a moving treadmill. That wasn't the original post which implies that there is no relative movement. At all times the speed of the treadmill cancels out the forward motion of the plane so says the post. Once the plane accelerates beyond the speed of the treadmill of course it'll take off. It's no different then to an airport runway. Where does air generated lift come from when no air is moving beneath a plane's wing?
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Post by bondygodfatherleek on Jul 13, 2009 18:48:48 GMT
The point is can the plane take off on a treadmill and not will the plane take off while appearing stationary on a treadmill. Because a planes engine is independent of its wheels it can move forward on a treadmill and take off, once the plane picks up speed the air moves faster over the flat top of the wing and moves slower over the curved underside of the wing and lift is created. So the answer to, "can a plane take off on a moving treadmill?" is a simple yes. Yes a plane can take off on a moving treadmill. That wasn't the original post which says that there is no relative movement. At all times the speed of the treadmill cancels out the forward motion of the plane so says the post. Once the plane accelerates beyond the speed of the treadmill of course it'll take off. It's no different then to an airport runway. Where does air generated lift come from when no air is moving beneath a plane's wing? You still have'nt asked.
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Post by iilforddave on Jul 13, 2009 18:49:13 GMT
exactly beagriestache
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Post by beagriestache on Jul 13, 2009 18:51:00 GMT
Go on then....!
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Post by bondygodfatherleek on Jul 13, 2009 18:52:56 GMT
Not one of you have mentioned a Pilot ;D 8-)Bondy it's ruined now. I watch Valkrie and sulk.
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Post by beagriestache on Jul 13, 2009 18:54:24 GMT
Lateral thinking Bondy nice.
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Post by neoisd1 on Jul 13, 2009 18:59:01 GMT
The speed of the treadmill is irrelevant as it can't cancel out the forward motion of the plane.
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Post by beagriestache on Jul 13, 2009 19:05:13 GMT
It's hypothetical. What if it does as the original post implies?
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Post by neoisd1 on Jul 13, 2009 19:08:24 GMT
It wouldn't matter if for every 10mph the plane increased in speed the treadmill increased in speed by a 1000mph, the plane would still move forward.
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Post by march4 on Jul 13, 2009 19:19:19 GMT
There are plenty of Physicists on here.
If the plane isn't moving, it can't take off.
If there is a fiddle with the treadmill that allows the plane to move forwards then it might lift off.
There seems to be a little bit of confusion over the horizontal and vertical components of the forces involved. The vertical force (lift) only becomes apparent when there is a difference between the velocity of the air above and below the wings. If the velocity of the air is zero above and below the wings there can be no lift.
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Post by neoisd1 on Jul 13, 2009 19:29:10 GMT
"If there is a fiddle with the treadmill" What is a fiddle?
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Post by iilforddave on Jul 13, 2009 19:31:21 GMT
Ok lets reverse the siutation :
A plane is in a huge wind tunnel, tethered to the worlds strongest cable that prevents it from moving forward. The wind speed is increased to above the known take off speed for that plane, what do you think will happen ?
BTW I know exactly what will happen
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Post by neoisd1 on Jul 13, 2009 19:36:34 GMT
if the wind is coming towards the plane then the plane will lift from the ground.
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Post by beagriestache on Jul 13, 2009 19:38:29 GMT
There are plenty of Physicists on here. If the plane isn't moving, it can't take off. If there is a fiddle with the treadmill that allows the plane to move forwards then it might lift off. There seems to be a little bit of confusion over the horizontal and vertical components of the forces involved. The vertical force (lift) only becomes apparent when there is a difference between the velocity of the air above and below the wings. If the velocity of the air is zero above and below the wings there can be no lift. Exactly. (Apart from the fact that the plane can be moving (on the treadmill, provided the plane is not moving relative to the air beneath its wings which is not affected by the treadmill). The original post said the treadmill moved at the same speed as the plane moved forward. It doesn't matter whether this is possible or not in reality. If that happens, there can be no air passing beneath the wings, no lift and no take-off.
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Post by Beardy200 on Jul 13, 2009 19:40:02 GMT
I know this has been on the internet for a while, but haven't seen it on the oatie, and thought it would make a change to the conspiracy theories and how wank britain is.A plane is standing on a runway that is made of a large conveyor belt. The plane fires up its engines, but as it moves forward, the conveyor belt senses the speed of the plane's forward motion and instantaneously moves at exactly the same speed in the opposite direction. Can the plane take off? Discuss. I say yes. Haven't read the replies but i'm almost definite it's no. The plane needs to move forward relative to the air. If the belt stops the plane going forward there will be no air passing over the wings. On a wing (aerofoil) there is a bigger curve over the top than the bottom which means the air over the wing travels faster than underneath. Faster air has less pressure and so the plane is "lifted" off the ground by the differential in air pressure from over and under the wings. This ain't happening so the plane's going nowhere. Am i right? ;D
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Post by Beardy200 on Jul 13, 2009 19:41:43 GMT
Ok lets reverse the siutation : A plane is in a huge wind tunnel, tethered to the worlds strongest cable that prevents it from moving forward. The wind speed is increased to above the known take off speed for that plane, what do you think will happen ? BTW I know exactly what will happen It will lift off the ground.
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Post by neoisd1 on Jul 13, 2009 19:43:03 GMT
There are plenty of Physicists on here. If the plane isn't moving, it can't take off. If there is a fiddle with the treadmill that allows the plane to move forwards then it might lift off. There seems to be a little bit of confusion over the horizontal and vertical components of the forces involved. The vertical force (lift) only becomes apparent when there is a difference between the velocity of the air above and below the wings. If the velocity of the air is zero above and below the wings there can be no lift. Exactly. The original post said the treadmill moved at the same speed as the plane moved forward. It doesn't matter whether this is possible or not in reality. If that happens, there can be no air passing beneath the wings, no lift and no take-off. If the plane was moving at the same speed as the treadmill it would be moving forward!
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Post by beagriestache on Jul 13, 2009 19:43:12 GMT
I know this has been on the internet for a while, but haven't seen it on the oatie, and thought it would make a change to the conspiracy theories and how wank britain is.A plane is standing on a runway that is made of a large conveyor belt. The plane fires up its engines, but as it moves forward, the conveyor belt senses the speed of the plane's forward motion and instantaneously moves at exactly the same speed in the opposite direction. Can the plane take off? Discuss. I say yes. Haven't read the replies but i'm almost definite it's no. The plane needs to move forward relative to the air. If the belt stops the plane going forward there will be no air passing over the wings. On a wing there is a bigger curve over the top than the bottom which means the air over the wing travels faster than underneath. Faster air has less pressure and so the plane is "lifted" off the ground by the differential in air pressure from over and under the wings. This ain't happening so the plane's going nowhere. Am i right? ;D I think so (for what that's worth!)
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Post by beagriestache on Jul 13, 2009 19:44:35 GMT
Exactly. The original post said the treadmill moved at the same speed as the plane moved forward. It doesn't matter whether this is possible or not in reality. If that happens, there can be no air passing beneath the wings, no lift and no take-off. If the plane was moving at the same speed as the treadmill it would be moving forward! Que?
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Post by march4 on Jul 13, 2009 19:44:46 GMT
Exactly. The original post said the treadmill moved at the same speed as the plane moved forward. It doesn't matter whether this is possible or not in reality. If that happens, there can be no air passing beneath the wings, no lift and no take-off. If the plane was moving at the same speed as the treadmill it would be moving forward! Thats the whole point - the plane isn't moving!!
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Post by Beardy200 on Jul 13, 2009 19:44:50 GMT
Exactly. The original post said the treadmill moved at the same speed as the plane moved forward. It doesn't matter whether this is possible or not in reality. If that happens, there can be no air passing beneath the wings, no lift and no take-off. If the plane was moving at the same speed as the treadmill it would be moving forward! Not relative to the air it won't be and that's what lifts a plane.
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Post by Beardy200 on Jul 13, 2009 19:48:16 GMT
It wouldn't matter if for every 10mph the plane increased in speed the treadmill increased in speed by a 1000mph, the plane would still move forward. Nothing to say except: ;D ;D ;D
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Post by iilforddave on Jul 13, 2009 19:51:23 GMT
Ok lets reverse the siutation : A plane is in a huge wind tunnel, tethered to the worlds strongest cable that prevents it from moving forward. The wind speed is increased to above the known take off speed for that plane, what do you think will happen ? BTW I know exactly what will happen It will lift off the ground. exactly beardy, a planes abilty to fly has nothing at all to do with how quickly its wheels are turning, and everything to do with the speed with which air is split by its wing profile. Thus a plane on a treadmill will not fly, as only the ground is moving, not the air. if you run on the road, pavement you will feel the air as you move through it, if you run on a treadmill you will not feel the air move past you, this is why some treadmills have fans fitted ... to give you that cooling effect of having moving air around you.
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Post by Northy on Jul 13, 2009 19:52:49 GMT
yes it will
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