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Post by neoisd1 on Jul 3, 2010 16:14:23 GMT
Not again.... ;D
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Post by jonesinamillion on Jul 4, 2010 0:13:11 GMT
Well I'll be fucked, this little gem has raised its ponderable little head again....
and the answer is still yes by the way!
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Post by lawrieleslie on Oct 31, 2023 0:46:33 GMT
Here it is resurrected.
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Post by chuffedstokie on Oct 31, 2023 6:30:45 GMT
Excellent thread. I'm in the 'no' camp.
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Post by lawrieleslie on Oct 31, 2023 8:46:10 GMT
Excellent thread. I'm in the 'no' camp. Yes I agree. Think of yourself on a powered treadmill at the gym. Your legs are the wheels and have to keep moving or you fall over but at the same time you don’t propel yourself forward. Translate that to an aeroplane ….no forward movement = no lift and therefore no flight. However if the propeller or jet thrust is enough to overcome the treadmill speed it will take off if it’s enough to give it lift. However the OP, 14 years ago, states that the treadmill will always match to forward speed of the plane.
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Post by chuffedstokie on Oct 31, 2023 9:06:14 GMT
Excellent thread. I'm in the 'no' camp. Yes I agree. Think of yourself on a powered treadmill at the gym. Your legs are the wheels and have to keep moving or you fall over but at the same time you don’t propel yourself forward. Translate that to an aeroplane ….no forward movement = no lift and therefore no flight. However if the propeller or jet thrust is enough to overcome the treadmill speed it will take off if it’s enough to give it lift. However the OP, 14 years ago, states that the treadmill will always match to forward speed of the plane. Precisely. Nail on the head with movement =lift =flight. 👍
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Post by maxplonk on Oct 31, 2023 9:08:37 GMT
The clue is in the name, "aeroplane" (or "airplane"). It's a flat surface which moves through the air. No movement relative to the air means no flight. Planes generally take off into the wind to take advantage of the phenomenon.
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Post by flea79 on Oct 31, 2023 9:16:43 GMT
I ran this by my pilot mate and he said no, obviously its dependent on the speed of the treadmill matching the velocity of the plane though
we need clearly defined parameters for this or its just like wearing a mask to stop transmission of covid all over again
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Post by raythesailor on Oct 31, 2023 9:39:41 GMT
If the treadmill was reversed would the airplane take off quicker thus saving fuel and the planet?
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Post by lawrieleslie on Oct 31, 2023 12:03:31 GMT
If the treadmill was reversed would the airplane take off quicker thus saving fuel and the planet? I would think so. Look at aircraft carriers that launch aircraft doing 30kts, they create a head wind and with extra speed both help with aircraft lift.
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Post by frasier37 on Oct 31, 2023 13:35:03 GMT
Yes....if it was a trainer plane
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Post by Staffsoatcake on Oct 31, 2023 13:59:36 GMT
I would'nt want to be on it, to see if it can.
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Post by lawrieleslie on Oct 31, 2023 15:17:11 GMT
I would'nt want to be on it, to see if it can. Where’s your sense of adventure
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Post by davethebass on Oct 31, 2023 15:47:14 GMT
Ok having read the OP, I'm thinking, because it gains forward motion by pushing air backwards, rather than being driven by the wheels, the plane's air speed is independent of the motion of the conveyor, so the faster the conveyor goes, the faster the wheels will spin, while the plane maintains its forward motion.... But, that's if we assume perfect frictionless bearings on the wheels. Sooooo...ok so practically there will be some drag from the wheel bearings..... I'm just thinking out loud here....so, the OP states clearly that the conveyor matches the planes speed....so there is drag from the bearings then... Lol ok, after initially on the other thread thinking the plane would take off, I'm now thinking....the conveyor would really be going some, and the plane would remain stationary, and it's wheels would catch fire. Lol Hey cheers for finding this thread @lawrieleslie ! Right now to go and read the rest of the thread, and I might come back having changed my mind yet again lol 😅
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MooG
Youth Player
Only the wisest and stupidest of men never change.
Posts: 493
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Post by MooG on Oct 31, 2023 18:06:05 GMT
I do remember the last time there was a thread on the oatcake about this and it rolled on for ages with people getting quite vexed on the topic. Therefore in an almost certainly futile attempt to derail it I'll summerise that thread here.
In the spirit that the original question was asked - Yes the plane takes off.
The plane will take off if it moves forward quick enough for the air it is moving through to provide enough lift.
Now cars provide their forward motion by putting power through their wheels which in turn tries to make the Earth spin. Since the Earth is massive they largely fail to move it and instead the car goes forward. If you stick a car on a treadmill (or rollers) it can't get that push and stays where it is relative to the ground.
Planes don't drive their wheels; they get their forward motion from the engines chucking air backwards - the wheels are just there to reduce friction by not having the belly of the plane scrape along the runway - that's why you can get planes that use skis or floats rather than wheels on take off.
If the plane wheel's are frictionless then they will just spin faster but the plane will take off as normal. In the "real" world there would be some friction and the engines would have to work harder to overcome it but would. If you change the treadmill so that rather than just matching the speed of the plane it tries to stop the plane moving by going faster and faster then it might be able to go so fast that friction stops the plane being able to move forwards fast enough - unless the plane can mount engines powerful enough to overcome that friction. It's a bit "Can God make a boulder He can't lift?".
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Post by thehartshillbadger on Oct 31, 2023 18:11:36 GMT
Surely not is my thinking without even studying the concept
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Post by lawrieleslie on Oct 31, 2023 18:30:50 GMT
I do remember the last time there was a thread on the oatcake about this and it rolled on for ages with people getting quite vexed on the topic. Therefore in an almost certainly futile attempt to derail it I'll summerise that thread here. In the spirit that the original question was asked - Yes the plane takes off. The plane will take off if it moves forward quick enough for the air it is moving through to provide enough lift. Now cars provide their forward motion by putting power through their wheels which in turn tries to make the Earth spin. Since the Earth is massive they largely fail to move it and instead the car goes forward. If you stick a car on a treadmill (or rollers) it can't get that push and stays where it is relative to the ground. Planes don't drive their wheels; they get their forward motion from the engines chucking air backwards - the wheels are just there to reduce friction by not having the belly of the plane scrape along the runway - that's why you can get planes that use skis or floats rather than wheels on take off. If the plane wheel's are frictionless then they will just spin faster but the plane will take off as normal. In the "real" world there would be some friction and the engines would have to work harder to overcome it but would. If you change the treadmill so that rather than just matching the speed of the plane it tries to stop the plane moving by going faster and faster then it might be able to go so fast that friction stops the plane being able to move forwards fast enough - unless the plane can mount engines powerful enough to overcome that friction. It's a bit "Can God make a boulder He can't lift?". If you look this is the thread you refer to from 14 years ago
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Post by thehartshillbadger on Oct 31, 2023 18:32:22 GMT
I do remember the last time there was a thread on the oatcake about this and it rolled on for ages with people getting quite vexed on the topic. Therefore in an almost certainly futile attempt to derail it I'll summerise that thread here. In the spirit that the original question was asked - Yes the plane takes off. The plane will take off if it moves forward quick enough for the air it is moving through to provide enough lift. Now cars provide their forward motion by putting power through their wheels which in turn tries to make the Earth spin. Since the Earth is massive they largely fail to move it and instead the car goes forward. If you stick a car on a treadmill (or rollers) it can't get that push and stays where it is relative to the ground. Planes don't drive their wheels; they get their forward motion from the engines chucking air backwards - the wheels are just there to reduce friction by not having the belly of the plane scrape along the runway - that's why you can get planes that use skis or floats rather than wheels on take off. If the plane wheel's are frictionless then they will just spin faster but the plane will take off as normal. In the "real" world there would be some friction and the engines would have to work harder to overcome it but would. If you change the treadmill so that rather than just matching the speed of the plane it tries to stop the plane moving by going faster and faster then it might be able to go so fast that friction stops the plane being able to move forwards fast enough - unless the plane can mount engines powerful enough to overcome that friction. It's a bit "Can God make a boulder He can't lift?". If you look this is the thread you refer to from 14 years ago No there was another one which was 180 pages long where Bayernoatcake wouldn’t take no for an answer
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Post by vidigal7 on Oct 31, 2023 18:44:32 GMT
Surely not is my thinking without even studying the concept It made me laugh out loud reading that title just. The answer has to be no it couldn't, the thrust when you take off is to put air pressure under the wings to create the lifting of the plane and then the engine keeps that pressure on the wings in mid flight. If the plane was on a treadmill it wouldn't be going anywhere so you wouldn't get the lift. If you then turned the treadmill off it would be like jumpstarting a car and likely to destroy the wings. That's my theory anyway
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Post by vidigal7 on Oct 31, 2023 18:49:42 GMT
It's like saying could a wingsuit take off on a treadmill, like fck it could, try it haha
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Post by jesusmcmuffin on Oct 31, 2023 19:32:46 GMT
The plane would lose weight and be too light to fly
I think
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Post by OldStokie on Oct 31, 2023 19:36:16 GMT
Yes it could but the treadmill would have to be moving at a speed that would propel the aircraft forward until the airplane reaches it's take off speed = V1. The airplane would have to have it's brakes on and be unable to move backwards until the final moment when its own engines are capable of keeping it airborne from the thrust of its engines and with the correct settings of the flaps. The concept of takeoff is that enough air is passing over the wings to create lift. Having said all that, it will never happen because it's a fantasy. A relative modern aircraft carrier uses the same concept but in a different way. It uses the physics of propellant allied with engine thrust. Biggles AKA OS.
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Post by starkiller on Nov 5, 2023 0:35:47 GMT
Yes, if the treadmill is the length of a runway, and not moving.
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Post by emretezzy on Nov 5, 2023 0:46:30 GMT
Yes, if the treadmill is the length of a runway, and not moving. Does the runway really exist though? And is the plane really flat?
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Nov 5, 2023 10:52:27 GMT
Yes, if the treadmill is the length of a runway, and not moving. Does the runway really exist though? And is the plane really flat? And has it really taken off or are they just manipulating the figures to brainwash you into thinking it has?
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Post by foghornsgleghorn on Nov 5, 2023 12:15:11 GMT
Does the runway really exist though? And is the plane really flat? And has it really taken off or are they just manipulating the figures to brainwash you into thinking it has? And if the plane kept trying to take off, but couldn't, it would get really hot, so the treadmill would be an ideal place to put a thermometer to push the climate change conspiracy.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Nov 5, 2023 15:14:27 GMT
Yes, if the treadmill is the length of a runway, and not moving. And made of tarmac……
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Post by dave1 on Nov 5, 2023 22:23:09 GMT
Completely off topic (but as random).
If you were to jump out of a moving train at full speed, but jumped upwards do you hit the ground at a similar speed as the train was moving or less (or a lot less) Serious question ha ha
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Post by chad on Nov 5, 2023 22:25:17 GMT
Completely off topic (but as random). If you were to jump out of a moving train at full speed, but jumped upwards do you hit the ground at a similar speed as the train was moving or less (or a lot less) Serious question ha ha I think this as been attempted a few times. As of yet though no one as survived to confirm one way or the other 😊
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Post by chuffedstokie on Nov 6, 2023 2:45:14 GMT
Completely off topic (but as random). If you were to jump out of a moving train at full speed, but jumped upwards do you hit the ground at a similar speed as the train was moving or less (or a lot less) Serious question ha ha Slightly academic really I'd say as the net result is going to be the same whichever way you launch yourself.
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