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Post by FullerMagic on Jun 28, 2009 15:49:46 GMT
It's all about the law of diminishing returns Bayern. I think you would have been happy signing Cisse, but his wages would have been around 50k a week. Is he twice as good as Fuller? Beye IS a significant step up from Wilko, but the price you have to pay for taking those steps, increases significantly and the steps become smaller as you attempt to bring in better quality players. Apparently Beye has 12 months left to run on a 50k a week contract, I think Stoke offering him 25 - 30k and a two year contract his hardly going to catch his attention, when he'll be a free agent in twelve months. I think we're going to have to be offering him at least a 3 year contract for that sort of money, or nearer to 35 - 40k a week, if we're only intending putting a two year deal on the table. Hard to argue with that, Paul. But a 3-yr deal on these kind of figures for a player who'd be pushing 35 at the expiry of the deal is surely where we'd draw the line. You can see the difficulty we have though, dealing with players on these telephone number salaries.
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Post by monkeycat on Jun 28, 2009 15:51:29 GMT
The other problem is that if we are not willing to pay these sorts of figures, there will be someone else who is
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jun 28, 2009 15:54:14 GMT
It's all about the law of diminishing returns Bayern. I think you would have been happy signing Cisse, but his wages would have been around 50k a week. Is he twice as good as Fuller? Beye IS a significant step up from Wilko, but the price you have to pay for taking those steps, increases significantly and the steps become smaller as you attempt to bring in better quality players. Apparently Beye has 12 months left to run on a 50k a week contract, I think Stoke offering him 25 - 30k and a two year contract his hardly going to catch his attention, when he'll be a free agent in twelve months. I think we're going to have to be offering him at least a 3 year contract for that sort of money, or nearer to 35 - 40k a week, if we're only intending putting a two year deal on the table. Hard to argue with that, Paul. But a 3-yr deal on these kind of figures for a player who'd be pushing 35 at the expiry of the deal is surely where we'd draw the line. You can see the difficulty we have though, dealing with players on these telephone number salaries. Yeah FM I think a 3 year deal would be VERY much where we draw the line, indeed I think it is far more likely that we'll offer him a 2 year contract. I was just poining out that if we do put 24 months on the table then it's probably going to have be for a bit more than 25 - 30k a week, in order for him to give up the 50k he's already guaranteed for the next 12 months.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jun 28, 2009 15:58:21 GMT
I just don't feel comfortable with us forking out 35-40k on a 32 year old full back. It makes no sense whatsoever. You're just asking for trouble imo. You might as well piss it up a wall. Bayern, Beye is the same age as Abdoulaye and Beattie mate. We're reportedly paying Beattie 37k a week. To bring somebody in, who is in the current class of Beye but is in say his mid 20's, would cost us really crazy money, way outside our current pay structure. God knows what the transfer fee would be either. And we needed a centre back and centre forward desperately. I just don't think we need a right back that badly. For 25k I think it'd be a fair deal (still too much but thats football). 35-40k for Beye is madness. I think he's a good player. But fook me that a lot of money for a position that imo we aren't desperate to improve. 2 central midfielders 1 top class striker 2 back up wingers 1 back up striker 2 full backs is where I put the priority.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jun 28, 2009 16:03:37 GMT
Fair do's Bayern.
I thinking we're probably having a different discussion here mate.
If that's you're order of priority in terms of the positions that you think need attention, no probs chap, I was just attempting to justify why we would have to pay Beye a certain salary.
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Post by actongatestokie on Jun 28, 2009 16:05:54 GMT
I think people are underselling the importance of full backs in the modern day game. Teams that tend to play good posession football, or at least have the ability to keep hold of the ball, have good full backs nowadays. Some Pro-Zone guy did a study a few years back and he found out that full backs have the lions share of percentage of any team nowadays (probably due to 4-5-1 systems forcing teams to play sideways and backwards...).
If we needed a lesson, cast our minds back to the Chelsea game in September. Bosingwa and Cole that day were awesome. They played like wingers and gave their side an extra dimension going forward.
Now, i'm not for one minute suggesting Beye is at the same level but he is light years ahead of Wilko. Thats going to upset a few people but it's the honest truth. Wilko had a very good season and he certainly "come of age" last year with some very stellar defensive displays after the Man Utd red card. I can't remember many, if any winger(s) that really got the better of him!?
Going forward though, he is a liability and his most used method of building an attack is one large lump up the touchline. Sorry, but we got by last season and if we want to move forward we need a full back (or two) who can play a bit aswell as be defensively sound as Wilko was last season. You can get away with being one dimensional in the Championship. In the Premier League you will be ultimately found out.
Bringing in full back(s) that can play football will take the workload off the midfield and two centre halves, aswell as one day removing the need for a "Mama role" of a player who needs to fight for 50/50 lumps up the pitch from full back position.
There's no use us bringing in footballing "playmakers" in the middle of the park if our full backs are bypassing them.
Higginbotham is similar but better than Wilko, although he will need to be replaced if we truly need/want to move on. Maybe next year the last in that position for him.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jun 28, 2009 16:07:09 GMT
Fair do's Bayern. I thinking we're probably having a different discussion here mate. If that's you're order of priority in terms of the positions that you think need attention, no probs chap, I was just attempting to justify why we would have to pay Beye a certain salary. I understand that, I just don't think its justified on any level. Thats not a dig btw, I just don't think he's worth it.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jun 28, 2009 16:09:58 GMT
I think people are underselling the importance of full backs in the modern day game. Teams that tend to play good posession football, or at least have the ability to keep hold of the ball, have good full backs nowadays. Some Pro-Zone guy did a study a few years back and he found out that full backs have the lions share of percentage of any team nowadays (probably due to 4-5-1 systems forcing teams to play sideways and backwards...). If we needed a lesson, cast our minds back to the Chelsea game in September. Bosingwa and Cole that day were awesome. They played like wingers and gave their side an extra dimension going forward. Now, i'm not for one minute suggesting Beye is at the same level but he is light years ahead of Wilko. Thats going to upset a few people but it's the honest truth. Wilko had a very good season and he certainly "come of age" last year with some very stellar defensive displays after the Man Utd red card. I can't remember many, if any winger(s) that really got the better of him!? Going forward though, he is a liability and his most used method of building an attack is one large lump up the touchline. Sorry, but we got by last season and if we want to move forward we need a full back (or two) who can play a bit aswell as be defensively sound as Wilko was last season. You can get away with being one dimensional in the Championship. In the Premier League you will be ultimately found out. Bringing in full back(s) that can play football will take the workload off the midfield and two centre halves, aswell as one day removing the need for a "Mama role" of a player who needs to fight for 50/50 lumps up the pitch from full back position. There's no use us bringing in footballing "playmakers" in the middle of the park if our full backs are bypassing them. Higginbotham is similar but better than Wilko, although he will need to be replaced if we truly need/want to move on. Maybe next year the last in that position for him. I agree with that but Wilkos distribution I think is better than Higgis. Wilko improved his passing in the second of the season and actually looked inside. Higgi just boots it.
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Post by droz on Jun 28, 2009 16:11:49 GMT
We all know that we need more quality in a number of areas, and the old 'you get what you pay for' rule is true. For a step up, which Beye is, you need to pay more money; especially a seasoned international player who has played at the top.
The issue about priorities is a different one. I think that we need a left-back who can attack more than a right-back, but if we can get Beye for a good enough price on the right deal, then think we should sign him.
The number of players we are due to sign seems to be around 6-9, so if Beye is one of those I would be happy with that. With priorities, I'd prefer a centre midfielder, a quick forward and a left-back first; but that still gives us room for more signings.
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Post by Soi Cowboy on Jun 28, 2009 16:48:25 GMT
I think people are underselling the importance of full backs in the modern day game. Teams that tend to play good posession football, or at least have the ability to keep hold of the ball, have good full backs nowadays. Some Pro-Zone guy did a study a few years back and he found out that full backs have the lions share of percentage of any team nowadays (probably due to 4-5-1 systems forcing teams to play sideways and backwards...). If we needed a lesson, cast our minds back to the Chelsea game in September. Bosingwa and Cole that day were awesome. They played like wingers and gave their side an extra dimension going forward. Now, i'm not for one minute suggesting Beye is at the same level but he is light years ahead of Wilko. Thats going to upset a few people but it's the honest truth. Wilko had a very good season and he certainly "come of age" last year with some very stellar defensive displays after the Man Utd red card. I can't remember many, if any winger(s) that really got the better of him!? Going forward though, he is a liability and his most used method of building an attack is one large lump up the touchline. Sorry, but we got by last season and if we want to move forward we need a full back (or two) who can play a bit aswell as be defensively sound as Wilko was last season. You can get away with being one dimensional in the Championship. In the Premier League you will be ultimately found out. Bringing in full back(s) that can play football will take the workload off the midfield and two centre halves, aswell as one day removing the need for a "Mama role" of a player who needs to fight for 50/50 lumps up the pitch from full back position. There's no use us bringing in footballing "playmakers" in the middle of the park if our full backs are bypassing them. Higginbotham is similar but better than Wilko, although he will need to be replaced if we truly need/want to move on. Maybe next year the last in that position for him. I agree with that but Wilkos distribution I think is better than Higgis. Wilko improved his passing in the second of the season and actually looked inside. Higgi just boots it. Absolutely spot on acton. We can't just have our full backs lump it and hope. The better teams will punish you every time if you needlessly give the ball away. We don't have a full back ball player and DESPERATELY need at least one. Wilkinson has no ball playing ability at all despite being a solid defender.
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Post by rorymscfc on Jun 28, 2009 17:15:00 GMT
Our distribution from the fullback positions was our biggest shortcoming lasy season IMHO. Griff was probably the best we had but that really wasn't saying much. It's anarea that we desperately need to improve on this season and, as with any other area of the pitch, quality costs.
RoryM
edit: Not very profound for a 1000th post but what can you do?
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Post by GrandStokie on Jun 28, 2009 17:35:50 GMT
Bayern, Beye is the same age as Abdoulaye and Beattie mate. We're reportedly paying Beattie 37k a week. To bring somebody in, who is in the current class of Beye but is in say his mid 20's, would cost us really crazy money, way outside our current pay structure. God knows what the transfer fee would be either. And we needed a centre back and centre forward desperately. I just don't think we need a right back that badly. For 25k I think it'd be a fair deal (still too much but thats football). 35-40k for Beye is madness. I think he's a good player. But fook me that a lot of money for a position that imo we aren't desperate to improve. 2 central midfielders 1 top class striker 2 back up wingers 1 back up striker 2 full backs is where I put the priority. Just about everywhere then! Tony and Peter would have to move heaven and earth to get that many players before the start of the season.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jun 28, 2009 17:37:47 GMT
Just what I think we need. 7-9 players seems to be the concensus that we need to bring in so its not far off.
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Post by GrandStokie on Jun 28, 2009 17:47:10 GMT
I can't see that happening, I guess there's no harm in being optimistic though. Martins would be the quality striker, so you could scratch that one off your list
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Post by Mr.Pickles on Jun 28, 2009 21:32:48 GMT
Ever thought that it may be TP's instructions for the FBs to play it down the line and keep it solid? Higgy does it every time and so does Wilko, they both arent bad players, they are doing what the boss is instructing them to do, and with our long ball style it works! For those who say Wilko is a complete joke going forward, I must have imagined the cross for Beattie's second against Portsmouth, or did he close his eyes and swing for the ball and get lucky? Beye may be better than Wilko atm (i'd argue with that statement) but Wilko is 6 years younger, wears his heart on his sleeve and wants to play for Stoke, he has merited his place, and if Beye wants about £20K p/w more than him then IMO he can fuck off. Like Bayern says we need to spend money on other areas, if we only pick up one back-up right back for next season i'll be happy. Back on track - Martins is probably the closest player to Fuller I can think of in terms of style, if we can get him in and have those two challenging for that spot i'll be delighted.
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SA_78
Youth Player
Posts: 325
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Post by SA_78 on Jun 29, 2009 6:44:49 GMT
Would be a great signing!! Go get him TP!!!
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Post by Soi Cowboy on Jun 29, 2009 7:24:57 GMT
'Ever thought that it may be TP's instructions for the FBs to play it down the line and keep it solid? '
Was waiting for someone to blame the manager.
Doesn't explain why Wilkinson can't make a 10 yard pass though in general rather than just kick it in the general direction of a Stoke player though does it or is he under instructions to do that as well?
'For those who say Wilko is a complete joke going forward, I must have imagined the cross for Beattie's second against Portsmouth, or did he close his eyes and swing for the ball and get lucky?'
No but once a season hardly justifies him starting every week though does it?
He may wear his heart on his sleeve like Dickinson etc but it doesn't give you the atributes to do what a Premiership fullback needs to do. Maybe in your case it warrants a place but a better all-round footballer more important in building a team for next season in my book.
The amount of times we lost the ball from full back positions away from home was scary last season and resulted in us losing the ball and eventually conceding goals so many times. Personally I would like it if we brought players in to put that right rather than someone who will put us in the same position again next term.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jun 29, 2009 8:23:11 GMT
The amount of times we lost the ball from full back positions away from home was scary last season and resulted in us losing the ball and eventually conceding goals so many times. Personally I would like it if we brought players in to put that right rather than someone who will put us in the same position again next term. Exactly Soi. Following an extra face or two in midfield, then the full back positions, in my humble opinion, are the ones in most need of attention.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2009 8:33:23 GMT
agree paul, there is not enough competition for the full back positions
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Post by spartanstokie on Jun 29, 2009 9:44:29 GMT
competiton creates better performances just look at fuller when beattie got here there was no way he wanted beats to score as many as him
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Jun 29, 2009 9:53:00 GMT
Frankly I am surprised that there is any argument on this board about the need for new full backs. Wilko has come on well but unless his distribution improves dramatically he isn't going to make the grade in the Prem. Higgy is a good centre back but only a moderate full back. He actually puts in decent crosses but his short passing game is woeful on many occasions.
As the rest of the squad improves those two are going to stand out as weak links to start games at full back. However, I'd be happy with either of them covering the centre back and full back positions more than I would with Cort or Sonko so to me the answer is obvious - get in two full backs and let Cort and Sonko move on.
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Post by spartanstokie on Jun 29, 2009 10:06:39 GMT
here here lakeland
but another centre back is not a bad idea either
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Post by FullerMagic on Jun 30, 2009 10:42:54 GMT
Geordie press seem to think Villa are seriously interested in him www.journallive.co.uk/nufc/newcastle-united-news/2009/06/30/vfl-wolfsburg-linked-to-obafemi-martins-move-61634-24019702/The German title winners could offer Champions League football to the Nigeria striker, but The Journal understands that Villa’s interest is genuine and serious.
Martin O’Neill is unlikely to sanction a bid of any more than £6m either though – a reflection of the depreciation in Martins’ value since relegation.
...his wage demands are so hefty that United could not afford to keep him unless wealthy benefactors take the club over soon. That prospect can not be taken for granted with even senior figures at the club like Chris Hughton admitting that they are working day-to-day with no certainty of imminent progress on either the managerial or ownership issues.
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Post by northstokie on Jun 30, 2009 12:28:58 GMT
If we really wanted him we just offer more - he is worth £7m and if it takes others out of the equation sometimes you have to pay over the odds...
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Post by FullerMagic on Jun 30, 2009 15:54:26 GMT
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Post by thepremierbanksy on Jun 30, 2009 16:07:51 GMT
Got to say I can't remember Seyi being injured. And is he trying to suggest that he was just too attacking for pulis to pick him?
"I struggled with injury for a long time and by the time I regained full fitness, I found myself fighting to return to a team doing well at that time.
"The manager was comfortable with the team - you do not change a winning team. They were a lot more defensive and that approach helped us to remain in the top flight."
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jun 30, 2009 16:10:22 GMT
Any chance we could see a 'Abdoulaye hopes Beye will join him at Stoke' headline tomorrow please?
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Post by danmase on Jun 30, 2009 17:22:43 GMT
Got to say I can't remember Seyi being injured. And is he trying to suggest that he was just too attacking for pulis to pick him? "I struggled with injury for a long time and by the time I regained full fitness, I found myself fighting to return to a team doing well at that time. "The manager was comfortable with the team - you do not change a winning team. They were a lot more defensive and that approach helped us to remain in the top flight." He didn't ever seem overly confident in the role he was being to fill - hence i suspect the attempt to play him wide right in Lennies absence. He certainly isn't a holding midfielder in the Pulis midfield and wasn't authoritative enough to make any great impact further forward. I can't help but think that he should be a good player for us but it never really happened last year and I suspect a bid of £1.5m+ would see him depart in the summer. Still if he managed to lure Oba before then, he wouldn't have been a totally wasted signing.
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Post by lordb on Jun 30, 2009 17:29:48 GMT
NUFC have a shed load of players on stupid money
imho they are going to have to go down the Leeds route of selling the players but still paying a large % of the wages.
given that maybe Martins to Stoke (with SCFC perhaps paying 50% of his wages) is a possibility.
you'd imagine any such deal would take a lot of haggling as such those deals will be more likely way into August rather than early July.
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Post by rorymscfc on Jun 30, 2009 17:47:21 GMT
Got to say I can't remember Seyi being injured. And is he trying to suggest that he was just too attacking for pulis to pick him? "I struggled with injury for a long time and by the time I regained full fitness, I found myself fighting to return to a team doing well at that time. "The manager was comfortable with the team - you do not change a winning team. They were a lot more defensive and that approach helped us to remain in the top flight." I remember Olli going off injured at Old Trafford and he seemed to disappear off the radar after that until towards the end of the season. Never heard anything about a major injury so presumably it was one of thiose niggly ones that takes ages to heal properly? RoryM
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