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Post by FullerMagic on Jun 28, 2009 11:55:52 GMT
If Ashton is the big money addition and if he's fit enough to play a full part in the season, I think we'd struggle to keep him, Beattie and Fuller happy.
But we'd obviously have to try as 3 decent strikers is imperative.
But the role of any 4th striker would be an absolute nightmare, especially if the idea would be to get another big established name in as striker No.4 on £40-50k-a-week. That looks just about impossible and unworkable for a club like us.
And that's what makes all these links with established names (in addition to Ashton) even harder to weigh up.
You'd think people of the calibre of Doyle or Martins would not come here just to be one of four, but choose somewhere where they'd get 90% of the starts and be the main man, and they're both good enough to get that somewhere else.
I don't think Doyle would merit that main man status here, but you could at least make a case for Martins above Fuller.
Of course, if we promised Martins that role here, that'd have knock-on implications for Fuller?
It'd certainly get even more confusing if we brought someone like Martins in on £50k-a-week and we had someone like Fuller effectively keeping him out of the team while earning around £20k-a-week
It's going to be fascinating to see how many established strikers we have on September 1st, the pecking order that develops and how happy we can keep them.
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Post by northstokie on Jun 28, 2009 12:07:00 GMT
If we see ourselves as mid table then 4 top class strikers is right, lets say Martins comes in and walks into the first team putting Fuller on the bench, he plays well he stays there and Fuller has to wait for his chance..
Problem we have had this season is a shit bench meaning Beattie and Fuller both knew they would play even if half fit - competition is good and the players competing get better the higher you go.. Lets not forget that both Martins and Doyle are Championship players and we are a mid table Premier League club...
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Post by FullerMagic on Jun 28, 2009 12:16:27 GMT
It's a fair point from the club's point of view, north. But players aren't really bothered about the club angle, are they? They just see it from a selfish ' I want games or I'm going to be pissed off' perspective.
And, in reality, how many teams of our status have 3, let alone 4, strikers of that calibre to keep happy?
Not many.
I just wonder how we'd attract new strikers into that mix here without guarantees of starts that you wouldn't think Pulis could give.
Beattie, Fuller, Ashton and Doyle/Martins/Zidan (or whoever) would be 4 established internationals at their peak.
And when they've got options elsewhere (Doyle could definitely be a main man at Wolves and Martins is good enough to be the principal striker at a decent-sized club somewhere), it looks a tough sell for us.
I think you've got a shot at keeping 3 big-name strikers happy, but not really 4.
Even with 3, a hierarchy would develop quickly and the odd man out would get itchy feet by Christmas - but we'll have to take that chance due to suspensions/injuries.
But add another big name into the mix and it starts becoming an impossible task for the manager IMO.
Maybe if the 4th striker was a youngster on the rise or a veteran on the way down who could accept a lesser role and knew their place?
And we haven't even mentioned Mama....
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jun 28, 2009 12:25:54 GMT
If Ashton is the big money addition and if he's fit enough to play a full part in the season, I think we'd struggle to keep him, Beattie and Fuller happy. But we'd obviously have to try as 3 decent strikers is imperative. But the role of any 4th striker would be an absolute nightmare, especially if the idea would be to get another big established name in as striker No.4 on £40-50k-a-week. That looks just about impossible and unworkable for a club like us. And that's what makes all these links with established names (in addition to Ashton) even harder to weigh up. You'd think people of the calibre of Doyle or Martins would not come here just to be one of four, but choose somewhere where they'd get 90% of the starts and be the main man, and they're both good enough to get that somewhere else. I don't think Doyle would merit that main man status here, but you could at least make a case for Martins above Fuller. Of course, if we promised Martins that role here, that'd have knock-on implications for Fuller? It'd certainly get even more confusing if we brought someone like Martins in on £50k-a-week and we had someone like Fuller effectively keeping him out of the team while earning around £20k-a-week It's going to be fascinating to see how many established strikers we have on September 1st, the pecking order that develops and how happy we can keep them. They are all fair points Grapey, but I think you also have to ask the question, just how oftern will Pulis be faced with the task of actually having to keep four front line strikers happy next season? Fuller is very likely to get suspended and possibly injured, he will certainly return from international duty 'feeling tired'. Beattie shouldn't really have been anywhere near the first team during our run in, but due to a lack of options Pulis felt he had no alternative but to start him. Both players can have dips in form. If it does get to the stage that one of the four is so frustrated with their time on the bench (which would also signify that at least two of our strikers were on fire) that they put in a transfer request, isn't Pulis likely at that point, to assess the situation and simply put the player up for sale in January if he feels there really is no way to appease them? Surely be better find yourself in that situation than to find you may have to consider Cresswell as an option. You could say, what about the guarantees that the player might have been given before signing? Well Camara said he left Wigan in January because he couldn't be guaranteed a starting place under Steve Bruce, which would suggest we were offering him something a little bit more tangible, not that it ultimately meant that much to him in the end.
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Post by FullerMagic on Jun 28, 2009 13:12:20 GMT
They are all fair points Grapey, but I think you also have to ask the question, just how oftern will Pulis be faced with the task of actually having to keep four front line strikers happy next season? Fuller is very likely to get suspended and possibly injured, he will certainly return from international duty 'feeling tired'. Beattie shouldn't really have been anywhere near the first team during our run in, but due to a lack of options Pulis felt he had no alternative but to start him. Both players can have dips in form. If it does get to the stage that one of the four is so frustrated with their time on the bench (which would also signify that at least two of our strikers were on fire) that they put in a transfer request, isn't Pulis likely at that point, to assess the situation and simply put the player up for sale in January if he feels there really is no way to appease them? Surely be better find yourself in that situation than to find you may have to consider Cresswell as an option. You could say, what about the guarantees that the player might have been given before signing? Well Camara said he left Wigan in January because he couldn't be guaranteed a starting place under Steve Bruce, which would suggest we were offering him something a little bit more tangible, not that it ultimately meant that much to him in the end. Yeah. Fair enough if Pulis is actually able to get strikers of the calibre we're talking about through the door and into this competitive 4-striker mix, ahead of rivals who maybe could offer them an easier passage to starting every week - and then take his chances about keeping them happy and re-assessing at a later date. But it'll be tough to do it. Looks like he may have given Camara some very dodgy assurances that were enough to convince him to come in on loan with Beattie and Fuller here. But it could be another thing entirely attracting name strikers here if we already have Fuller, Beattie AND Ashton. I still think 3 big strikers is tough to manage but something to strive for and necessary due to suspension/injuries - but 4 is pretty unmanageable.
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Post by rorymscfc on Jun 28, 2009 13:15:40 GMT
Martins can also play wide left though, which would help in the "keeping them all happy" scenario. Beattie also spent some time on the right hand side last season - most notably at Villa when he put the peach of a cross in for Shawcross to score.
RoryM
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Post by bentrep01 on Jun 28, 2009 13:17:28 GMT
He won't be coming, doz. I agree there but to suggest he's "classes above Fuller" is, in my humble opinion, madness I don't think we realise just how good Fuller is and are wrongly awed by all these 'stars' who once were quite good for Inter Milan or some other giant at some undefined point in the past. Fuller is an absolute class act who would have got pretty near to the top of the English game IMO if his knees wouldn't have f****d up the middle part of his career just as it was taking off. Havn`t we just got rid of an ex Juventus star! ;D
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jun 28, 2009 13:21:39 GMT
Martins can also play wide left though RoryM Wow I didn't realise that. Is it a position he's played in for any consistent period of time, or is it more a case of him having filled in there on occasion?
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Post by rorymscfc on Jun 28, 2009 13:25:58 GMT
Not sure but I'm sure I've seen him play there for Newcastle with Owen & Viduka up top. I think it's more of a filling in job TBH - although we all know how Tone likes a bit of versatility!
RoryM
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jun 28, 2009 14:24:20 GMT
Cue the wrath of some but I don't want him. Sorry.
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Post by droz on Jun 28, 2009 14:26:33 GMT
I totally agree with you, FM; to keep four happy would be very difficult, but if we do really want to push on the more options we have the better.
I do think we'd be best served with three top (for us) forwards and a quick nippy forward who can make an impact. Moses and Modise have been mentioned...
However, if we are able to get four competing against each other, hopefully that would work in a positive way and they'd get the best out of each other. And, as Pulis is quite traditional in many ways, he'd probably pick the team based on form.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jun 28, 2009 14:28:06 GMT
Isn't he on 70k a week?
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Post by monkeycat on Jun 28, 2009 14:52:12 GMT
Yes. dave said Beye was maybe stalling due to having to drop down from 50K a week, so you would suspect martins would have to agree to a massive pay drop. Maybe it is a smokescreen after all
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Post by smokeyjoe on Jun 28, 2009 14:56:20 GMT
MC, do you know who davesviews is? Not asking you to identify him or anything like that, just whether you know who he is
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jun 28, 2009 14:57:11 GMT
Maybe so. What would we offer Baye. Personally I don't think he's worth more than 15k a week. Especially when we have a perfectly decent right back already. Its a lot of money for a soddin full back.
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Post by monkeycat on Jun 28, 2009 14:59:37 GMT
Maybe so. What would we offer Baye. Personally I don't think he's worth more than 15k a week. Especially when we have a perfectly decent right back already. Its a lot of money for a soddin full back. To get Beye, when there are other clubs interested, I reckon we are going to have to offer at least between 25k and 30k a week
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Post by FullerMagic on Jun 28, 2009 15:02:04 GMT
All things considered, you'd have to think we'd have to be offering somewhere around £25-30,000-a-week to give Beye a decision to make?
And, if we're prepared to do this for a full-back, it really does look like we're in totally new territory as a club.
Whether Newcastle would be prepared to subsidise the rest (at least during the remaining 12 months he's contracted to them for) to get the bulk of his salary off the wage bill is anyone's guess.
Maybe an Everton would be prepared to go higher as, although he's knocking on, he does appear to be a top full-back judging by what the Toon fans have to say.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jun 28, 2009 15:18:03 GMT
I had a figure of 25-30k in my head but that to me is too much for a full back especially when he's not really needed.
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Post by Soi Cowboy on Jun 28, 2009 15:24:54 GMT
I think full back is where we desperately need to improve. Beye would be a massive improvement on anything we have
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jun 28, 2009 15:31:39 GMT
I don't think massive improvement, especially on 50k a week, I'd want Ramos for that! He'd be an improvement but we need a left back more than we need a right back imo.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jun 28, 2009 15:32:16 GMT
It's all about the law of diminishing returns Bayern.
I think you would have been happy signing Cisse, but his wages would have been around 50k a week.
Is he twice as good as Fuller?
Beye IS a significant step up from Wilko, but the price you have to pay for taking those steps, increases significantly and the steps become smaller as you attempt to bring in better quality players.
Apparently Beye has 12 months left to run on a 50k a week contract, I think Stoke offering him 25 - 30k and a two year contract his hardly going to catch his attention, when he'll be a free agent in twelve months.
I think we're going to have to be offering him at least a 3 year contract for that sort of money, or nearer to 35 - 40k a week, if we're only intending putting a two year deal on the table.
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Post by serpico on Jun 28, 2009 15:33:33 GMT
*I'd be happy with a Ashton Martin ;D * Ive not read the thread so this joke has already probably been told, I'm claiming it anyway .
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jun 28, 2009 15:37:10 GMT
It's all about the law of diminishing returns Bayern. I think you would have been happy signing Cisse, but his wages would have been around 50k a week. Is he twice as good as Fuller? Beye IS a significant step up from Wilko, but the price you have to pay for taking those steps, increases significantly and the steps become smaller as you attempt to bring in better quality players. Apparently Beye has 12 months left to run on a 50k a week contract, I think Stoke offering him 25 - 30k and a two year contract his hardly going to catch his attention, when he'll be a free agent in twelve months. I think we're going to have to be offering him at least a 3 year contract for that sort of money, or nearer to 35 - 40k a week, if we're only intending putting a two year deal on the table. I don't think he is a significant step up though. He's better going forward, but as a defender Wilko is superb. For 35-40k a week I'd want someone better than Beye.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jun 28, 2009 15:39:49 GMT
For 35-40k a week I'd want someone better than Beye. In my humble opinioln Bayern, this will be difficult. Who have you got in mind?
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jun 28, 2009 15:42:45 GMT
No one, but then again I don't think any full back in the world deserves more than 25k a week. Especially one that just got relegated. Fookin madness.
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Post by Soi Cowboy on Jun 28, 2009 15:43:18 GMT
He's a better defender and as far as Wilko going forward there is little to his game. We don't have full backs who can carry the ball out of defence and use it- Beye would bring something we're desperately lacking. Keeping the ball especially away from home is something we're struggling to do. Beye can do that. Not knocking Wilko but need better and you have to buy better than what we have and Beye ticks all the right boxes.
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Post by FullerMagic on Jun 28, 2009 15:43:51 GMT
I haven't seen enough of him.
But the Newcastle fans certainly describe him as a player worthy of a £35-40k salary in todays climate.
And they seem to think he's very solid defensively, rather than a Flash Harry.
The only reservation I'd have against him is his age. 32 in October and you never know when players are going to start losing that edge. And, when it happens, it can be quite rapid.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jun 28, 2009 15:45:12 GMT
I just don't feel comfortable with us forking out 35-40k on a 32 year old full back. It makes no sense whatsoever. You're just asking for trouble imo.
You might as well piss it up a wall.
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Post by Soi Cowboy on Jun 28, 2009 15:49:00 GMT
I see it as massively improving our team which we mustr do but we'll agree to disagree.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jun 28, 2009 15:49:41 GMT
I just don't feel comfortable with us forking out 35-40k on a 32 year old full back. It makes no sense whatsoever. You're just asking for trouble imo. You might as well piss it up a wall. Bayern, Beye is the same age as Abdoulaye and Beattie mate. We're reportedly paying Beattie 37k a week. To bring somebody in, who is in the current class of Beye but is in say his mid 20's, would cost us really crazy money, way outside our current pay structure. God knows what the transfer fee would be either.
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