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Post by davejohnno1 on Jan 4, 2009 11:57:45 GMT
With everyone crying out for some decent quality from wide positions and preferably some pace, I cast my mind back to the last genuine wide players we had of any quality, and my thoughts turned back to Hoekstra and Commons.
Mr Pulis inherited these two players from previous regimes and from memory used them only very sparingly. Now forgive me if the memory enhances the quality of these two players, but at the time both appeared to be exceptionally gifted players who could offer our limited starting 11 some flair and creativity.
Pulis never fucking used them and in the 6 years of his stewardship that have followed, we still haven't replaced them in our team.
For those that hope we sign some pace and quality from wide, then I suggest you keep on hoping. Pulis doesn't do flair, wingers or pace!
Fuller must be the only flair player he has ever signed for any club he has managed.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2009 12:01:48 GMT
Tiz true  He used Greenacre and Asaba as wingers if I remember and Gifton and Ady...Personnel may change but systems don't  |
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Post by davejohnno1 on Jan 4, 2009 12:06:29 GMT
Sidders...I well remember those options and they were as laughable as the ones we are persisting with now.
Remember Hoekstra's wonder volley v Watford? Hoekstra came on as an early sub that day and in the post match interview, Pulis acknowledged that had it not been for a late injury to one of the subs, Hoekstra wouldn't even have been on the bench.
Kind of sums the man up really. A fit Hoekstra not even on the bench whilst the likes of Greenacre plyed their trade on the wings.
Criminal!
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Post by kingdeano on Jan 4, 2009 12:08:24 GMT
Tiz true He used Greenacre and Asaba as wingers if I remember and Gifton and Ady...Personnel may change but systems don't i still remember when we signed asaba, he used to murder us every time he played against us, great striker, so where did braindead play him!!! fucking wing! same as greenacre always good for a goal, so we convert him into a winger, moves on and scores regulary playing up front! now we have kitson is a top striker and pulis plays him midfield!!!...........................pattern developing here!!!! on another note tho, id have commons back tomorrow |
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Post by tpsoldboysclub on Jan 4, 2009 12:09:13 GMT
i remember pulis hated Hoekstra, it definately sums the man up!
commons in terms of techical ability (apart from Hoekstra) was they best at the club for many years. TP didnt try hard enough to keep him
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Post by davejohnno1 on Jan 4, 2009 12:13:41 GMT
Pulis openly admitted to "warming" to Hoekstra as he time at Stoke came to an end.
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Post by Olgrligm on Jan 4, 2009 12:35:58 GMT
I remember after Commons left Pulis had some very strong criticism of Commons' attitude when compared with Hoekstra. He described Hoekstra as a real professional, the kind of guy who was a real example to other players. In fact, I believe he said that the reason Commons hadn't played every single game last year (as Commons indicated he had been expecting that season) was that he had the much more experienced and professional Hoekstra to play ahead of him. Maybe that was just tribunal talk though.
I vaguely remember Hoekstra being injured a lot that season, but I also remember a thread on here where most of the posters were in agreement that Hoekstra was going to have to watch his place in the coming season because he had probably become the weak link in our side. I seem to remember it was something to do with tracking back and injuries. He announced his retirement in the following week.
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Post by oslostokie1 on Jan 4, 2009 12:40:30 GMT
Without Commons, Derby would have been stuffed by Forest Green yesterday. Certainly, he is better than anything we have got, Fuller excepting. I think Hoekstra grew on TP by the end, only because he began to track back. Some years ago, I was speaking to TP, and one of the first thing he said when I mentioned Hoekstra was how Rudge had said to him at first that Hoesktra would never track back. But how at the end of his Stoke career, he was clearing balls off his own goal line. Nothing wrong in introducing that aspect of the game into Hoekstra's make-up, but it shows the way TP's mind works. Graft and endeavour first, flair afterwards.
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Post by french toast on Jan 4, 2009 13:54:16 GMT
hoekstra was used sparingly because he was very injury prone
commons was told he would play more the season hoekstra retired but wanted to move to that"big club"
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Post by stokie63 on Jan 4, 2009 14:45:13 GMT
hoestra was quality and didnt work hard enough for pulis likeing and i thnk commons could cut it in the prem as a left winger hes better than anything we got at the moment.
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Post by starkiller on Jan 4, 2009 15:14:54 GMT
Pulis openly admitted to "warming" to Hoekstra as he time at Stoke came to an end. Why does Pulis have to 'warm to' any kind of player with flair? |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2009 15:20:38 GMT
Hoekstra was pure quality but the main reason he didn't play regularly was his injuries. Doesn't realy matter what Tone's thoughts on him were, he wasn't able to play match after match. The only reason a player of his calibre ended up with us was because of his injuries.
Commons was quality in his time with us too but his attitude sucked.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Jan 4, 2009 16:21:25 GMT
I've never read so much horse shit in my life as this thread. When Hoekstra was fit, he played. Simple. He offered Commons a big new contract to stay, fact.
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Post by stokelad84 on Jan 4, 2009 16:26:43 GMT
But then again some games he played Commons on the left and Hoekstra on the right!
He always played Hoeky when he was fit, wasnt Pulis fault he had a niggling injury that limited his appearances is it? Same with Commons, he was out for a long time with an injury too.
Its hard to play players when they are on the injury table!
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Post by werrington on Jan 4, 2009 16:28:58 GMT
Tony doesn;t warm to any player who he hasn;t purchased |
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Post by serpico on Jan 4, 2009 16:32:35 GMT
I've never read so much horse shit in my life as this thread. When Hoekstra was fit, he played. Simple. That's not as I remember it, I certainly remember Pulis not playing him in many away games, ... lets face facts, like Pulis or not, he doesn't really like Players with flair he sees them as a liability, ... Pulis knows what he likes, and if a player can so much as pull of a Cruyff turn then he is seen as a luxury player. I'm not necessarily saying this is a bad thing, he got us promoted with this policy, but I'm not so sure it works that way in the premiership, you need some quality and well as "aarrd workers". Of course, there's always a exception to the rule, Fuller being one of them. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2009 16:44:19 GMT
davejohnno1
Fuller and Commons are the best players I've seen at Stoke in recent times
never understood why we fcuked up with Commons, been a long admirer and to this day we haven't replaced him
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Post by davejohnno1 on Jan 4, 2009 17:22:24 GMT
Mo...Hoekstra hardly ever played away from home and was used sparingly at home, even when fit.
The Watford game wasn't a figment of my imagination and Pulis openly admitted to "warming" to Hoekstra.
I am not spoiling for a fight on this one, simply pointing out that Hoekstra and Commons were the last players in our side to have a genuine ability to go past a man in a wide position, be that through pace or trickery.
Pulis inherited both, rarely used them, and hasn't replaced them during his 6 years at the club.
Ledley may be a good player, but pace and trickery are not considered to be his strengths by those that watch him week in week out. Indeed our very own scouting report on Ledley said the same thing.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2009 17:35:42 GMT
Hoekstra himself said in interviews that he couldn't play in every game because of his injuries and that Pulis knew this and used him sparingly. He started around half our games in 02-03 and 03-04. Remind me who was manager when he scored his hat trick against Reading?
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Post by serpico on Jan 4, 2009 17:46:00 GMT
Hoekstra himself said in interviews that he couldn't play in every game because of his injuries and that Pulis knew this and used him sparingly. He started around half our games in 02-03 and 03-04. Remind me who was manager when he scored his hat trick against Reading? Nobody has said Pulis NEVER played him, he did, but do you think Pulis would buy a player of Hoekstras ilk by choice ? ... and how many of the games was he played up front in ? pulis doesn't like creative midfield players, he likes workhorse right across the middle. |
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Post by th05 on Jan 4, 2009 17:47:54 GMT
Must admit, Commons looked class for Derby yesterday, he was involved in everything.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2009 17:49:42 GMT
Hoekstra himself said in interviews that he couldn't play in every game because of his injuries and that Pulis knew this and used him sparingly. He started around half our games in 02-03 and 03-04. Remind me who was manager when he scored his hat trick against Reading? Nobody has Pulis NEVER played him, he did, but do you think Pulis would buy a player of Hoekstras ilk by choice ? ... and how many of the games was he played up front in ? pulis doesn't like creative midfield players, he likes workhorse right across the middle. Actually, people are saying that he rarely played him or Commons, which is revisionism on a fairly big scale. No I don't think Pulis would buy a flair player of his ilk, which is hugely frustrating, but let's not rewrite history - in 2003/04, Hoekstra and Commons played around 38 games between them, which suggests that for the most part, when fit, one of them played in the majority of our games that season. I can understand why he wasn't always used away from home, as could Hoekstra himself, especially in 02-03. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2009 18:14:06 GMT
I've never read so much horse shit in my life as this thread. When Hoekstra was fit, he played. Simple. He offered Commons a big new contract to stay, fact. Your comment sir is Horseshit. Pulis admitted that he would play Hoekstra at home but would limit his appearances away from due to the way we played away from home. December 2003/January 2004 Stoke go on a run of form that puts them in the play-off frame. Old head Peter Hoekstra and young gun Kris Commons turn heads with their explosive style – but Pulis seems to be wary of fielding them too often – much to the frustration of the fans. I am also sure there is a quote somewhere but I really am not going to try and dig it out. |
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Post by sheikhmomo on Jan 5, 2009 10:19:19 GMT
I think looking at his appearence data (coupled with his injury record) would support my version of events rather than yours. However, I agree with the main thrust of Dave's post, I just think it's a bad example. When he stumbles on flair, I don't think he's too averse to using it, it's identifying it or taking a risk in acquiring wherein the problem lies.
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Post by apb1 on Jan 5, 2009 10:24:29 GMT
I think Sheik is right. Hoekstra would never be a Pulis pick, but he did become pretty much a regular, and was indeed praised for how he had become more of a work 'ard player in the process.
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Post by griffoisalegend on Jan 5, 2009 10:24:36 GMT
With everyone crying out for some decent quality from wide positions and preferably some pace, I cast my mind back to the last genuine wide players we had of any quality, and my thoughts turned back to Hoekstra and Commons. Mr Pulis inherited these two players from previous regimes and from memory used them only very sparingly. Now forgive me if the memory enhances the quality of these two players, but at the time both appeared to be exceptionally gifted players who could offer our limited starting 11 some flair and creativity. Pulis never fucking used them and in the 6 years of his stewardship that have followed, we still haven't replaced them in our team. For those that hope we sign some pace and quality from wide, then I suggest you keep on hoping. Pulis doesn't do flair, wingers or pace! Fuller must be the only flair player he has ever signed for any club he has managed. I think he just dropped on Fuller, i really don't think he knew what a talented player he was, when he first joined - he was a goal poacher , then he started taking on 3 or 4 people down the right hand side about 3 times every game, and beating them  Seriously,Pulis will only get players in who will fit the team unit, which is why Cresswell was stuck out on the left last season, and Delap this season - they both work hard and keep their position very well(probably too well). Even Joe Ledley is a hard worker, so it's clear he wants to get players in who'll fit the industrious ethic of the team... He does have obvious quality on the ball though and if he's Wales' next big thing, it's probably an opportunity we shouldn't turn down, whether he plays in the middle or out wide- i'd like to see a Jobi Mcanuff sort signed for a relatively minimal amount and just see how he handles one of the wide positions. |
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