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Post by lordeffinghamhunt on Aug 2, 2008 12:35:35 GMT
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Post by pugster on Aug 2, 2008 12:51:21 GMT
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Post by serpico on Aug 2, 2008 12:53:05 GMT
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Post by pugster on Aug 2, 2008 12:56:22 GMT
Isn't that the point of the media? Without an angle, why would there be the need for more than one newspaper?
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Post by serpico on Aug 2, 2008 12:57:37 GMT
Isn't that the point of the media? Without an angle, why would there be the need for more than one newspaper? Leaning in one political direction is the norm, he is just telling out and out falsehoods.
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Post by pugster on Aug 2, 2008 13:00:15 GMT
Politics and falsehoods are such great bedfellows.
;D ;D ;D
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Post by JetBlack on Aug 2, 2008 15:08:33 GMT
I agree Pugster. I am ex RAF too, based at Odiham in the 80's. Where were you based?
Serpico, I'm sure this has been reported before; dunno by whom tho' I mean, a couple of years ago.
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Post by serpico on Aug 2, 2008 15:29:51 GMT
I agree Pugster. I am ex RAF too, based at Odiham in the 80's. Where were you based?
Serpico, I'm sure this has been reported before; dunno by whom tho' I mean, a couple of years ago. I'm not saying everything he writes is rubbish, but given his track record, don't take it at face value. The story itself is believable though, i don't doubt some British Muslims have gone off to fight in these wars, much the same way they went and fought the Russians when they invaded, occupied and eventually violently expelled from Afghanistan, although this is obviously slightly different.
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Post by wizzardofdribble on Aug 2, 2008 16:06:56 GMT
Think this has been known for a while..'intelligence-gathering' within Muslim communities (from MI5) has prevented further action...whilst operations are ongoing Don't forget the role of mercenarys too..hired and fired by both sides during the Afghan invasion by the USSR and later USA
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Post by pugster on Aug 2, 2008 17:24:43 GMT
Blackjet
Trained at Halton and Cosford
Stationed at Lossiemouth 12 Squadron and Waddington AWACS support (software)
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Post by serpico on Aug 2, 2008 18:43:49 GMT
This has to be story of the day for me , perhaps you RAF boys should take a listen, i wonder if any similar type discussions happen at the highest levels of our government ?.
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Post by pugster on Aug 2, 2008 19:34:37 GMT
Serpico, it would surprise me if similar incidents, on varying scales are not used as emotional leverage. An initial position of instability must exist for this tactic to be effective. In Iraq and Afghanistan, an operation of this type would be counter-productive. The less publicity attracted the easier the mission would be e.g. media coverage of torture cases affected public opinion in the U.k.. Then again I could be communicating via my lower colon.
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Post by serpico on Aug 2, 2008 19:45:03 GMT
Serpico, it would surprise me if similar incidents, on varying scales are not used as emotional leverage. An initial position of instability must exist for this tactic to be effective. In Iraq and Afghanistan, an operation of this type would be counter-productive. The less publicity attracted the easier the mission would be e.g. media coverage of torture cases affected public opinion in the U.k.. Then again I could be communicating via my lower colon. Something similar was also proposed prior to the Iraq war by George Bush himself-
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Post by pugster on Aug 2, 2008 20:25:10 GMT
Yes to initiate a conflict with a perceived "rogue" state but not to bolster or further a present war.
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Post by serpico on Aug 2, 2008 20:37:29 GMT
Yes to initiate a conflict with a perceived "rogue" state but not to bolster or further a present war. So are you saying doing what was being proposed is ok so long it's a "rouge state" (by the way Iran has not started a war or invaded another country in over 400 years) ? actually killing members of your own military in in order to blame it on another country to justify a war is ok ? i don't understand, you think thats legitimate just so long as the country it's aimed at is a "rouge state". By the way the US government has been prodding and prodding and prodding at Iran for the best part of 3 years now trying to get them to retaliate and thus use as a pre-text for a strike, so far Iran has played it clever and they have not risen to the bait, but we still have a few months of the Bush admin to go yet so anythings possible still, all's it will take is another little boarder incident or either side doing something silly and it'll be war, thats how close we are, just one little boarder incident. Also given that we now know they are willing to engage in deceitful tactics how do we know some of the major incidents in Iraq, like the bombing of the golden mosque in Iraq which started a mini civil war, wasn't manufactured to give a pretext for staying in Iraq ?.
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Post by pugster on Aug 2, 2008 20:56:00 GMT
Yes to initiate a conflict with a perceived "rogue" state but not to bolster or further a present war. So are you saying doing what was being proposed is ok so long it's a "rouge state" (by the way Iran has not started a war or invaded another country in over 400 years) ? actually killing members of your own military in in order to blame it on another country to justify a war is ok ? i don't understand, you think thats legitimate just so long as the country it's aimed at is a "rouge state". By the way the US government has been prodding and prodding and prodding at Iran for the best part of 3 years now trying to get them to retaliate and thus use as a pre-text for a strike, so far Iran has played it clever and they have not risen to the bait, but we still have a few months of the Bush admin to go yet so anythings possible still, all's it will take is another little boarder incident or either side doing something silly and it'll be war, thats how close we are, just one little boarder incident. Also given that we now know they are willing to engage in deceitful tactics how do we know some of the major incidents in Iraq, like the bombing of the golden mosque in Iraq which started a mini civil war, wasn't manufactured to give a pretext for staying in Iraq ?. On the contrary, I merely used "rogue" state in terms of media, state and public perception. Continual anti Iranian propaganda has created a false reality, with more credence within the masses than the truth in it's Shadow. This capability enables rogue operations similar to those you proposed to be executed and inflate the myth, therefor creating a means to an end.
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Post by serpico on Aug 2, 2008 21:05:41 GMT
So are you saying doing what was being proposed is ok so long it's a "rouge state" (by the way Iran has not started a war or invaded another country in over 400 years) ? actually killing members of your own military in in order to blame it on another country to justify a war is ok ? i don't understand, you think thats legitimate just so long as the country it's aimed at is a "rouge state". By the way the US government has been prodding and prodding and prodding at Iran for the best part of 3 years now trying to get them to retaliate and thus use as a pre-text for a strike, so far Iran has played it clever and they have not risen to the bait, but we still have a few months of the Bush admin to go yet so anythings possible still, all's it will take is another little boarder incident or either side doing something silly and it'll be war, thats how close we are, just one little boarder incident. Also given that we now know they are willing to engage in deceitful tactics how do we know some of the major incidents in Iraq, like the bombing of the golden mosque in Iraq which started a mini civil war, wasn't manufactured to give a pretext for staying in Iraq ?. On the contrary, I merely used "rogue" state in terms of media, state and public perception. Continual anti Iranian propaganda has created a false reality, with more credence within the masses than the truth in it's Shadow. This capability enables rogue operations similar to those you proposed to be executed and inflate the myth, therefor creating a means to an end. I'm in agreement with that.
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Post by pugster on Aug 2, 2008 21:13:18 GMT
On the contrary, I merely used "rogue" state in terms of media, state and public perception. Continual anti Iranian propaganda has created a false reality, with more credence within the masses than the truth in it's Shadow. This capability enables rogue operations similar to those you proposed to be executed and inflate the myth, therefor creating a means to an end. I'm in agreement with that. What do you believe is the ultimate aim of U.S. industry given the rapid growth acceleration of China and the sub-continent? Is it just a fight for resources? surely not? (referring to Iraqi oil and Afghan pipeline)
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Post by serpico on Aug 2, 2008 21:28:05 GMT
I'm in agreement with that. What do you believe is the ultimate aim of U.S. industry given the rapid growth acceleration of China and the sub-continent? Is it just a fight for resources? surely not? (referring to Iraqi oil and Afghan pipeline) It's hard to pinpoint the motivations of the war party in washington, the obvious one would be oil, but i think their is more to it than that, i think there are people in Washington who see a future conflict with China as inevitable and they're preempting it by gaining control of the worlds oil, 9/11 gave them a nice pre text for all this, they certainly ceased on the opportunity it presented and milked it for all it was worth. Another major motivation is the protection of Israel, the Israel lobby is very powerful in washington, and then you have the neo-cons, who are staunchly pro Israel, the neo-cons are where the Israel lobby and the military industrial complex meet, they have been in a position of influence for a long time, many of them put Israels interests before that of the US, they want Israel to remain the sole super power of the middle east and maintain hegemony in the region, 9/11 came along and the neo-cons hijacked US foreign policy and the rest is history. To sum it up it's all aout oil Oil Israel Logistics Or maybe it's just a super power showing off it's dominance, as a prominent neo-conservative once said "every ten years or so the united states needs to pick up one of these crappy countries and throw it against a wall, just to show we mean business", they think America should be an empire and use the military to force democracy (Quislings completely dependent on the US) on people, it's a completely flawed idea, as we have seen in Iraq, it doesn't work, people generally don't enjoy being bombed, invaded and then occupied at the barrel of a gun.
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