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Post by Trouserdog on Jul 29, 2008 16:23:33 GMT
This is the pessimist/realist position...
In recent years every team who have been promoted and survived their first year in the top flight have either had a very solid base on which to build from (e.g.Reading...although it went a bit pear shaped for them last season) and/or absolutely loads of cash (e.g Sunderland). Even with Coates' new found wealth and generosity, we'll never have the latter scenario, so the former is the only way to build a long-term premiership future.
However, it pains me to admit it, but last season we were promoted mainly because we had a very organised team, and an efficient gameplan in what was a shockingly poor championship. We also had a very small squad (if you discout the deadwood like Buxton/Pericard/Pulis etc) with loan signings bulking us up in key areas, which has left us with what is unfortunately a rather fragile-looking foundation. Before anyone starts getting hysterical at this, just look at the number of decent players that the rest of the lesser Premiership sides can call upon and then you start to realise how short we are in some/most areas. I hardly dare to think about it but at present we have SIX defenders at the club. One of those is Lewis Buxton. Two of the others are local lads who were in our reserves at the start of last season. I know there's two weeks to go until Bolton, but my pants are already getting a bit brown.
Reinforcements may indeed be imminent, but we are now in an era where even modest Premiership footballers cost £4/5 million, and therefore we're looking at having to spend somewhere between £12-15million to be anywhere near competitive...and that's just on one area of the team.
But it doesn't stop there. As generous as Coates has been, few would deny that we need virtually an entirely new first XI (I'd argue that only Fuller, Lawrence and possibly Shawcross from the promotion squad are Prem class). The amount of cash this would take is simply mind-blowing, and we could land ourselves in real financial bother if Pulis went on a mad spending spree on big-name glamour boys that ultimately failed.
Instead the players that TP seems to be targetting are an improvement on what we've got, but are also of the standard who hopefully wouldn't immediately jump ship if we came back down again. Having a team that can swat aside the rest of the championship is the kind of platform you need to be able to build on to have a chance of surviving the Premiership, but squeezing our way up on 70-odd points just leaves TP way too much to do this time around.
So, if we improve the squad, make ourselves major players for an immediate return, and go down with our pride intact then to be honest I wouldn't be that disappointed. Pinning all our hopes on somehow staying up this season will only lead to disappointment for supporters and probably long-term financial ruin in the boardroom.
Can anybody convince me that I'm being too negative???
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Post by lordb on Jul 29, 2008 16:26:39 GMT
got to aggree
hopefully we can bully our way to safety &/or TP will surprise us with some decent signings
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Post by Trouserdog on Jul 29, 2008 16:30:12 GMT
got to aggree hopefully we can bully our way to safety &/or TP will surprise us with some decent signings I think you're right. Bullying our way to safety is the ONLY method that we could deploy that would give us a slight hope. Come on Tone, get some more big maulers in, you know it makes sense! |
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Post by griffoisalegend on Jul 29, 2008 16:31:02 GMT
I have faith in Stoke and i won't be surprised with ANY outcome this season.
Well...
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Post by tigger68 on Jul 29, 2008 16:31:02 GMT
don't think we'll bully our way in this league they go down like a sack of spuds at the best of times,so with our big guys it'll just be worse,we have to beat the west brom's, hull's and wigan's of the league and then hope for some suprise results against your newcastle and man city's..............
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Post by n01stokie on Jul 29, 2008 16:34:00 GMT
we will stay up
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Post by premierpotters08 on Jul 29, 2008 16:35:26 GMT
i think with 5 more top signitures and some allrite players to come on as subs then well have a decent chance i think well be in same spot as sunderland finished last season and then build from there.
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Post by stokemark on Jul 29, 2008 16:35:29 GMT
Sometimes a team is greater than the sum its individual parts and I really think this applies to Stoke. TP is very aware of that and rather than do a Hull (which I do think is frought with disaster) he is adding fewer but better players.
I still think it will be remarkable if we stay up but thats not Stokes fault - Its a fault of the greedy, unprincipalled, survival of the fittest / wealthiest elite known as 'The Premier League'
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Post by salifdiao on Jul 29, 2008 16:35:54 GMT
"TP seems to be targetting are an improvement on what we've got, but are also of the standard who hopefully wouldn't immediately jump ship if we came back down again"
Erm..Kitson jumped ship from Reading as soon as they went down and Seyi has joined us from Wolves because he didnt want to play championship football anymore.
I agree with most of what you say but that bit is just nonsense.
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Post by luke45 on Jul 29, 2008 16:39:23 GMT
I honestly think we'll beat the drop.
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Post by Pottermazing on Jul 29, 2008 16:41:13 GMT
To be honest, although i still have faith Pulis can keep us up, you do make very realistic points and we definitely need a fair amount of strengthening.
The one thing though that you might be overlooking is that this team, although very weak, does have some very strong points that could be vital in the Prem. We have got a tremendous team spirit that saved us a fair few points last season, the two scunny games for example, and its this spirit that could find us the extra few goals in the important matches that could just get us out of trouble. Also Derby last season signed every average player they could find to "strengthen the squad" and all they got was a team full of players, that had never played with each other before, needing to bond and play as a proper team in the space of weeks. Although i totally agree that the squad needs strengthening to have any realistic chance, Pulis is bring in players that are going to be right for the team, and contribute to the determination and togetherness we already have the beginnings of in the present squad.
Overall however, your points all make sense and no matter how good team spirit is, it just needs that extra bit of quality that we might not be able to reach to help us stay up.
Thats now though, I'm sure that in the next few weeks, Pulis may well pull some cracking signings out of the bag that could just start to make things seem that bit brighter.
I still believe though! We can work hard to 17th place, 1 point above above the baggies;)
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Post by phil51 on Jul 29, 2008 16:46:06 GMT
Yes, I think we will stay up. Pulis knows how to build TEAMS who are better than the sum of the parts. Couple that with the fact that he knows how to build teams who fight and scrap and don't get relegated. By the end of the season, they will all hate us, we will be safe and I will be very happy.
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Post by griffoisalegend on Jul 29, 2008 16:46:18 GMT
I love Stoke because the players which i watch every week aren't overpaid cunts, like many premier league teams. You feel closer to them for some reason, we're a proper football club - i don't care what any person says - teams like Man United and Chelsea are fast becoming a business .
I hope the club stays that way, obviously we'll have to pay bigger wages as we progress - but i really hope the players earn it before lashing out 30k a week.
If the players can show the same passion as last season, even with few signings - we'll always have a chance.
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Post by 58Potter on Jul 29, 2008 16:51:33 GMT
It very much depends on how we use the rest of the transfer window, but with a few more quality signings I definately think that we can and WILL stay up....bring it on, I conner wait  |
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Post by RAF on Jul 29, 2008 16:53:12 GMT
I'd love to think we can beat the drop.
At the moment the standard of our squad looks a bit too lightweight to really compete, but with a good 3 more signings and a couple of loans I reckon it's possible.
For me, if we get over 25 points we will have done well.
Anything better will be a bonus in my eyes.
I'm just going to enjoy the season and see what I shall see.
H
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2008 16:58:43 GMT
CANT BELIEVE THE NEGATIVITY AT THE HEAD OF THIS THREAD !
And, this should be a time of optimism and anticpation - just what IS IT about people from stoke on trent anyways ??????????????????????????????
It is well known in survival situations -those who bleat they wont survive, are usually the ones who are the first to expire.
Sometimes its about mental strength and team spirit -we have that in abundance !
I know we have short comings too- quite a lot actually - but we have great strengths also - (dont forget that) - but strenthening has started and, I do not believe Peter Coates or for that matter, Tony Pulis would allow us to fail now we've reached our rightful postion (in my eyes anyway) and, to be truthful - the vast majority of the premiership is an overhyped media fuck fest anyways !
DO YOU REALLY BELIEVE we are so far behind the likes of West Brom, Hull, Fulham, Blackburn, bolton, fulham, even Man City and others ?
We've always talked about needing that extra bit of quality, as I see it, we are now in a position to actually afford it too !
I happen to think we can compete already and, we will strengthen at a pace dictated by a amanagment team who plainly outcompeted much richer clubs last season too !
AND YES -we'll stay up - no doubt in my mind
I even think we'll spring a surprise or two !
The time is not for doubters - it is for BELIEVERS - and, we've got to play our part too
no shying away and quietly 'bricking it' cowering in the shadows
SO - COME ON STOKE -YOU CAN (AND WILL DO IT OVER AGAIN ) (IMHO)
(shame on you trouserdog !!!!) (wink wink)
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Post by boothenpaddock86 on Jul 29, 2008 17:00:42 GMT
i think we will stay up we have a great team spirit witch many premier teams lack ,can't see us losing to many games at home,pressure will be off as most pundits seem to think we'll go down
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Post by bigb35 on Jul 29, 2008 17:01:14 GMT
we can stay up with the squad we have, aslong as we dont do anything stupid, ie. sack pulis half way through
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Post by gleghornsgoolies on Jul 29, 2008 17:06:20 GMT
DO YOU REALLY BELIEVE we are so far behind the likes of West Brom, Hull, Fulham, Blackburn, bolton, fulham, even Man City and others ? Yes. Because we are. Bringing Blackburn and Man City into it is just laughable to be honest. There's being positive, then there's just plain delusion. |
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Post by FullerMagic on Jul 29, 2008 17:09:47 GMT
Fair summary, Trousers.
It's hard to see where the nailed-on strugglers are going to come from to make the mini-league with the 3 promoted clubs.
The money being splashed by the perceived weaker, third-tier Prem clubs like Wigan, Bolton and Fulham, to strengthen already far deeper and stronger squads, at the moment is scary.
Maybe we'll start to feel we've got a chance if we see 5-6 more good players come into our squad.
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Post by trebor63 on Jul 29, 2008 17:16:27 GMT
We WILL stay up.
Last year you could have written a similar thing explaining why it was virtually impossible for us to go up!
Positive thinking is important for fans and players. We did go up. We will stay up!
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Post by wizzardofdribble on Jul 29, 2008 17:33:00 GMT
At the end of the day..people have to come on here and say what they genuinely believe..however unpopular..without fear of being mocked/verbally abused...that's what 'Freedom of Speech' is all about. No way can you compare us with the likes of Man City..who have Mark Hughes and one of the best squads in the Prem..along with a billionaire Dictator willing to 'dig-deep' Look at the odds against Bolton...from 3-1 a month ago to 9-2 now..and thats AFTER the Kitson signing..  Says it all.. I have supported Stoke for over 30 years and both me and my 14 year old son have season-tickets for 2008/9...but unless we bring in 3 or 4 QUALITY players..we are going to struggle..big-time. Thats the reality  |
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Post by Beardy200 on Jul 29, 2008 17:46:43 GMT
In my eyes trousers you are spot on. It's not being pessimistic, or being a bad supporter it's just having your eyes open and realising how difficult it's going to be ... and yeah Man City and Blackburn???? ... you having a laugh? They could sell their best 2 players and practically buy our whole team. That being said it doesn't make it impossible. We have a small squad with little depth at the moment (especially in defence) so we will need to be lucky with injuries and very professional about suspensions (you listening Ricci and Liam??), then we'll need to bag more than our fair share of points when we play our rivals and we might just do it. If we can then we should be looking good to stay there. If we go down it won't be a massive surprise to many (or me) but if we don't cripple ourselves financially we'll be in a great position to come straight back up. Turning a mid table champ team into a regular mid table prem team doesn't happen quickly (without huge investment) but we're DEFINITELY moving in the right direction.
PS - i'd rather be a realist and understand there's a big chance we will go down BUT cheer the boys on every step of the way THAN a blind optimist who's convinced we'll stay up but then starts moaning come Xmas when it's not going how they hoped.
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Post by Trouserdog on Jul 29, 2008 17:47:07 GMT
DO YOU REALLY BELIEVE we are so far behind the likes of West Brom, Hull, Fulham, Blackburn, bolton, fulham, even Man City and others ? Nurse! Nurse! The voices are starting again!  |
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Post by onlyonesirstan on Jul 29, 2008 17:52:24 GMT
After what has just happened to me, I think Stoke will stay up. I was just reading this post, and at the same time reached for my pint of beer. Low and behold, I knocked it over, it went all down the back of my computer table, and missed the electric plugs and modem by millimetres. As far as I am concerned someone was looking over me and made sure i will be alive to see Stoke stay up next season.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2008 17:53:06 GMT
I honestly think we'll 'DO' Bolton first match -no doubt in my mind (nil two -actually )
as for Blackburn - who've they Really Got now ? Roque Santa Cruz yes - but thats one - who else ? (Bentleys on his way out too!)
That Swedish guy ? - he blows hot and cold I hear (and he's a big pansy)
The rest of Blackburn's 'truly awesome names' or, for that matter Boltons team, dont actually 'race to the front of my mind' either plus, Blackburn have an unproven manager from a lower level than we've recently operated in AND, they've just lost a major key player i.e. - their goalie
We ALWAYS overrate the opposition and, underrate ourselves
And - there are a few more players to come in to our club - you'll see !
and it'll set a mark
Cmon folks -supporting stoke really isn't THAT hard !
And I'll fianlly concede this point, we really do need two really decent full backs (so important a position in the premiership-that much is true - to be really safe (IMHO)
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2008 17:58:20 GMT
The squad we have got at the minute does not stand a snow balls chance in hell of avoiding the drop. We need a t least 5/6 first eleven players to be competitive and thats my hope to be competitive and give everyone a real good game.
Uk Tony comes out with his classics again, Fulham are about to spend 13 million on a striker, Bolton have spent a mint of money and are an established Premier team, Man City have a billionaire owner, yeah right we're not far behind.
We are moving in the right direction but for me continued progress will depend on who Pulis can bring in.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2008 18:01:09 GMT
Peter Coates isnt short of a bob or two either !
oh yea of so little faith !!!!! (tch thc tch)
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Post by Trouserdog on Jul 29, 2008 18:02:13 GMT
I admire your unwavering optimism Tony, but the very recent memory of a poor, 10-man Newcastle team (who I think may come very close to the bottom three this time) batting us aside with the ease of a silverback gorrilla swatting away a gnat, has given me the jitters.
There was also the 0-3 reverse at Fulham the previous season to highlight the enormous gulf in quality that we face.
Anyway, it'll be an adventure whatever happens. Can't wait to see us on MOTD...at least it means I won't fall asleep on the sofa two games into the show anymore.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2008 18:07:50 GMT
I honestly think we''ll surprise a few people - yes there are names in our squad that dont exactly inspire confidence but -we've a team ethic and a never say die attitude - if we get a better first touch and learn to launch the ball less - we can, and will adapt
And, Ive watched some premiership games also - plenty of them aren't exactly football festivals littered with world class skill - more than a few are dogged drudges with mistakes aplenty
the sort of stuff were used to
And yes, ten men hammered us at newcastle -but as I recall - they were also very lucky INDEED to walk out of our place with anything at all !
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