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Post by cousindupree on Jul 10, 2008 8:35:30 GMT
The self promoting premier league and a few misty eyed supporters. I hear a heck of a lot on here too. The reality is if you take the big four out of the equation then the rest are pretty average....Everton Spurs Villa Man city etc dont strike fear. We dominate the champs league but rarely win the Eufa cup...even Rangers made it to the final.
Look at the record of champs teams against the prem teams in the cup competitions last season?...
I watched a lot of prem football last season and some of it was pretty awful.Lets not get too paranoid that ALL the prem teams are that good
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jul 10, 2008 8:38:48 GMT
Agreed. Thought Keegan was spot on (there's a sentence I never expected to type) with his comments last season about how only the big four can compete. It's hyped as the most exciting league in the world when only four teams have a remote chance of winning it.
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Post by youareallwrong on Jul 10, 2008 8:45:57 GMT
It's dead simple. Which national team, with supposedly the 'best league in the world' couldn't qualify for the Euros and would have been an embarrassment if it had? How many players from the Prem played in the semi-finals of the Euros? It's a high-pace, physically demanding league, but with the skill level of a kindergarten compared with the Spanish league.
Also, how come the greasy bastard Ronaldo runs rings around English defenders and looked not much more then ordinary in the Euros? Could it be because he plays against poor defenders in the Prem?
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Post by ted1965 on Jul 10, 2008 8:46:41 GMT
It’s not the best league in the world but it certainly is the most watched hyped up and talked about in the world. I have said there are 3 or 4 leagues within a league and even the likes of Liverpool can’t genuinely compete over a season with the big 3 but with Arsenal now it seems struggling to hold their better players it will once more become a two horse race if they fall back that makes it more like the Scottish Premier league.
The only reason it’s unequal is money, those who have it got more to begin with and those who now have riches beyond anything they could have imagined still can’t compete, Bolton have spent 10 million on a forward, the reality it’s just to make sure they continue to enjoy the gravy train because they are still likely to struggle. That’s why it’s the hardest league in the world, there are 13 clubs who are all similar and any one of them could have a good or bad season depending on many things. Then there are the 3 who gain promotion, one always surprises people, hopefully us and the other two struggle, its like a soap opera you can see the plots a mile away but you keep watching it anyhow hoping for an unexpected twist.
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Post by Titan Uranus on Jul 10, 2008 8:49:21 GMT
only at Stoke, eh...
it's taken us 23 years to get here, now we're having a moan about the quality of it...
priceless
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Post by ManderBeast on Jul 10, 2008 8:53:50 GMT
It's dead simple. Which national team, with supposedly the 'best league in the world' couldn't qualify for the Euros and would have been an embarrassment if it had? How many players from the Prem played in the semi-finals of the Euros? It's a high-pace, physically demanding league, but with the skill level of a kindergarten compared with the Spanish league. Also, how come the greasy bastard Ronaldo runs rings around English defenders and looked not much more then ordinary in the Euros? Could it be because he plays against poor defenders in the Prem? & what gives u the impression that Ronaldo turns English defenders inside out? Do all Prem teams field all english defences?? Thought not..... I do think the Prem IS the best league in the world, you look at the likes of the Italian league, and how boring it is with games built on defending.....the Spanish with some what Gung-Ho styles like Real's...... This Top 4 Malarkey is present & for all to see in Italy, Spain, Germany & England..... Its a naturally occuring conciquence of success.... The more successful, the more investors, the more money, the more top players... Its a fact of footballing life... |
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Post by stoketastic on Jul 10, 2008 9:06:41 GMT
only at Stoke, eh... it's taken us 23 years to get here, now we're having a moan about the quality of it... priceless Quality Mary Quality  |
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jul 10, 2008 9:16:21 GMT
Us being there doesn't change anything Mary.
The top four malarkey isn't quite the same in other countries - other teams at least THREATEN to make a title challenge even if one of the usual suspects ends up winning it (take the challenges of Sevilla and Sociedad in recent years in Spain, Schalke, Stuttgart and Bremen in Germany, Chievo in Italy).
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Post by youareallwrong on Jul 10, 2008 9:28:53 GMT
If our league's so good, how come the England team is so crap? Anybody who watched the Euros could see players who look comfortable on the ball, play with skill and patience and knock it around for fun. When you watch England, you see players who can't wait to get rid of the ball, run up and down like chickens with their heads cut off and generally look outclassed in most international games. The fact the English-based foreign players do well for their national teams is in spite of, not because they play here.
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Post by cousindupree on Jul 10, 2008 9:38:13 GMT
Dont see anyone moaning on this post!....wouldnt want to be anywhere else...just adding a bit of realism to balance the hype....My point about the UEFA cup i think is a valid one...its been dominated by italian and spanish teams in the past 25 years. In fact only Liverpool have won it in the last 20 years...suggests to me that beneath the dominate teams in each country our second string are behind Spain and Italy
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Post by ted1965 on Jul 10, 2008 10:39:33 GMT
The argument over whether the Premier league is the best in the world was made this morning and many like myself believe it to be an over hyped league but that isn’t a complaint or means we would rather be playing in the championship. The desire of any football club and it’s supporters is to play at the highest possible level and that for us at the moment is the Premier league.
That doesn’t detract from the facts, the league is very uncompetitive at the top end, there are three possible winners of the league title year in year out, anyone who believes different needs to look at the facts, only Manchester United, Arsenal or Chelsea have won the league in the last decade. There have been very few sides who have even made 4th place and attained a champions league place other than Everton in that time, if that isn’t predictable what is. Liverpool who were the dominant side through the 70’s to the early 90’s can only compete in the media, they certainly haven’t looked like winning the league in that time despite spending copious amounts trying. Though it should be pointed out, that while those 4 clubs have done much better in the champions league lately, only Manchester United and Liverpool have gone all the way and won it.
The places below 4th have been a little more competitive but the same sides with a few exceptions seem to be in and around that top 10, though at least you see a few changes which does make it a little more interesting and competitive. Though as the financial gap continues to grow and certain clubs receive better financial backing that will also become like the top 3, with a collection of about 5 or 6 clubs fighting to fill those remaining 6 places, they may finish in slightly different orders each year but they will also close that portion of he league to the rest of football. Those UEFA places haven’t really earned those clubs much success, it’s better than it was but only as someone pointed our Liverpool actually triumphed.
The rest of the league is basically made up of clubs hoping to finish away from the bottom three and maybe with a little luck break into the top 10, though most find even that difficult because of the financial gap even between them and those 5 or 6 clubs.
There’s no end in sight, the Premier league was created as an appeasement to 4 or 5 big clubs at the time, it was to prevent them breaking away. They have prospered and gone forward since then and the rest while enjoying the fruits that drop from their branches are hardly competing with them and in all honesty it wont change anytime soon.
Though I wouldn’t swap our position for any other league we could be playing in, but realistically it’s a top class league at the very top, after that it’s what they leave behind for the rest to scramble over and collect.
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Post by JoeinOz on Jul 10, 2008 13:54:55 GMT
Its a very good league BUT the English players...because they play in a very good league....are ludicrously overrated.
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Post by santy on Jul 10, 2008 14:17:26 GMT
Well when you look at the other leages...
Germany: Bayern Munich - with the occassional challenger for a few years nothing consistent.
Italy: AC Milan, Juventus, Inter Milan - occassionally a fourth which changes every few years
Spain: Barcelona, Real Madrid - valencia at a push
France: Lyon
Portugal: Besiktas & Porto
Holland: Ajax & PSV
Most countries don't have a big "four" ie 4 teams consistently getting the top 4 places, and in the spanish and italian leagues, there is a far larger gulf between the top and bottom of the league, imo the thing that made the premiership exciting was teams like bolton, in truth they should have been getting wiped by arsenal, man utd etc all the time, but up until this season tehy would usually pull something out of the bag, and the big 4 were concerned by them.
Out of the top leagues in the world I would say it is the best out of them, however, I think the championship - in terms of openness and the ability for teams to pull of huge shocks is much better but will never be seen as such because the aim is always to get up to the premiership. In the championship you always know, pretty much no matter who you are, one or two decent signings and a bit of luck and at the end of the season you could be there or thereabouts, which doesn't happen in any of the top leagues.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2008 14:24:48 GMT
Thought that this was an interesting article. (Although it was written prior to Nadal winning both Wimbledon and the French Open). It is the most well marketed sporting machine in the world. It of course does have some incredible world-class talent - the amount of money in the league sees to that 'phenomenon'. But there is a big disparity between having superb talent in your domestic league and immediately having that transfer into its host nation's National side. How many Englishmen play for the top 4 sides on a regular basis? Especially when thinking of the more 'flair' and attacking-minded players. Rooney and....erm...erm... ? The problem is money, and to an extent, the media. It's cheaper to buy from abroad, and I think a reason for that is that as soon as a young English player shows potential and promise he's not allowed to develop it due to the constant media gaze and hysterical expactations that are ramped up every time he does something. No-one seems to be allowed to just enjoy their football in the game anymore, they can't just go out there and play their natural game - because they know if they have an off day or a little slump (which we ALL do) they're villified by the media and fans, and the managers have to quickly find someone else that can appease them and to secure the next result. We live in a world of fast-food, fast cars and fast money; everybody wants it done right now, or better still yesterday. Patience is no longer a virtue, it's seen as dithering and as a weakness. Anyways, I kind of went off on a ramble there.  |
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Post by JoeinOz on Jul 10, 2008 14:33:12 GMT
because they no if they have an off day or a little slump (which we ALL do) they're villified by the media and fans, and the managers have to quickly find someone else that can appease them and to secure the next result.
Martin Samuel wrote something good in The Times the other day about Casillas. He played for Real Madrid when he was amazingly young. He made a few errors in a champions league game and Ron Atkinson took the piss out of him. As did the commentator. Now he has two European cup winners medals and a European Championship to his name. When you remember the attitude of Atkinson is it any wonder goalkeepers are shitting it when they play for England?
Its all pressure and unjustified expectation for England players. It can't be a pleasant experience knowing if you make that bad tackle that bad pass that mistake that goes against the team some people will send you bullets in the post.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2008 14:37:25 GMT
It's the same with Carson too Joe - have seen people on here say that he's awful and don't want to see him in a Stoke jersey, much prefer Fulop etc. He earnt England caps via his displays and played some damned good games for Villa last season. But I wonder what he's remembered for by most people??????  |
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Post by JoeinOz on Jul 10, 2008 14:44:01 GMT
In his book Beckham says he was amazed that when we were beating Brazil in 2002 he saw ronaldo smiling with the ref over something. He noticed there that England players don't feel relaxed when they play because of the fear involved. And that fear can't help.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jul 10, 2008 14:44:04 GMT
Well when you look at the other leages... Germany: Bayern Munich - with the occassional challenger for a few years nothing consistent. Italy: AC Milan, Juventus, Inter Milan - occassionally a fourth which changes every few years Spain: Barcelona, Real Madrid - valencia at a push France: Lyon Portugal: Besiktas & Porto Holland: Ajax & PSV Most countries don't have a big "four" ie 4 teams consistently getting the top 4 places, and in the spanish and italian leagues, there is a far larger gulf between the top and bottom of the league, imo the thing that made the premiership exciting was teams like bolton, in truth they should have been getting wiped by arsenal, man utd etc all the time, but up until this season tehy would usually pull something out of the bag, and the big 4 were concerned by them. Out of the top leagues in the world I would say it is the best out of them, however, I think the championship - in terms of openness and the ability for teams to pull of huge shocks is much better but will never be seen as such because the aim is always to get up to the premiership. In the championship you always know, pretty much no matter who you are, one or two decent signings and a bit of luck and at the end of the season you could be there or thereabouts, which doesn't happen in any of the top leagues. Besiktas are Turkish mate. Are you saying that because other European leagues are more varied than ours and don't have a consistent top four that our league is somehow more exciting? I don't follow that at all. As I said in the earlier post, while the usual suspects generally end up winning these leagues, at least you do get teams like Sevilla and Sociedad and even little Chievo from time to time posing a genuine Championship challenge. When was the last time a non-Big 4 English team was still in with a shout at the Premier League by January? |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2008 14:47:28 GMT
Over the past few years we have had the most teams making the final 4 of the champions league than any other league. There’s not many more useful indicators that that.
The Premier League is the best league in the world.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jul 10, 2008 14:49:03 GMT
It's become a closed shop though, where only four teams even look like they might win it. I'd rather say nads to the Champions League and have a competitive domestic league again.
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Post by lordherefordsknob on Jul 10, 2008 18:43:58 GMT
any league with stoke in is best league in the world
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Post by GrandStokie on Jul 10, 2008 18:55:37 GMT
Its gone very quiet on the board...............has it crashed again
Well in my opinion the Premiership was the best league in the world but now it's become so money orientated I think its lost its sparkle. Thats not to say its not competitive but money has devalued our game in many ways.
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Post by werrington on Jul 10, 2008 19:08:47 GMT
Lasts seasons Championship was a PROPER league??
EVERY team top or bottom could beat each other??
What footie should be all about
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2008 19:30:59 GMT
werrington
agree, the Championship is a great league, better than the old division 2
cousindupree
you make some good points although I think there is a large gulf between us and Everton , Villa , Spurs and even West Ham
A shittish Newcastle team destroyed us and Derby got just 1 win last year so if we aren't prepared we are certain to go down
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Post by shoey100 on Jul 10, 2008 22:50:35 GMT
My two pennies: Definition of a great league in my book is one that is consistently full of excitement, where results cannot be predicted. An example of this can be our last season in The Championship. Yes there was some awful football played at times by both us and teams that opposed us (let's be honest did West Brazil actually play the standard of football against us last year that made you understand what the media were on about, cuz I certainly saw none of it in the games against us); anyway, I digress, the football may not have been brilliant but the excitement cannot be faulted. All season long teams from the bottom were beating those at the top, as well as vice versa. There was not a time when I felt you could predict a certain outcome of a match last season, and if I did it was often wrong. Excitement and surprises to me make a good league. The Premiership, however, does not offer this in my opinion. How many times could you realisitcally predict an outcome such as Bolton winning away at chelsea? We just know it won't happen. Compare this to last season when it wasn't unrealistic to think that a team near the bottom might nick at least a point away to a team near the top - Scunthorpe came close against us, Leicester got a point, Southampton beat West Brazil towards the end did they not? An exciting league doesn't need exciting football, but exciting results - two different concepts in my book. The premiership doesn't offer this and so by that rationale cannot be deemd an exciting league. If it is not exciting, then how can it be deemed the best in the world? As said before, it lacks the footballing quality of other leagues, proven in our poor international record - so it lacks excitement, and it lacks quality - how it can be said to be the best in the world is beyond me
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Post by lordb on Jul 11, 2008 7:40:49 GMT
old div 2 pre prem days had better quality than the CCC now,imho,because good players who wernt 1st choice @ their 1st div club wouldn't think twice about sogning for a div 2 club.
now its rare even for someone who almost never plays for a prem side (1st team) to drop a division.
the CCC is always an intriguing league because its so competitive & unpredicatable (unlike the prem) but the quality just isnt there.
Spanish League is far more open than the prem,Barca havnt won the league as many times as you might think.
take away the top 4 from both leagues & theis pisses on ours.
Italian league has definitly dropped in terms of quality & the German & French leagues are belwo prem standard imho.
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Post by petershiltonsmini on Jul 11, 2008 8:01:28 GMT
OK here goes
In the USA they relised that because they don't tend to get away support a football matches they would have to try and keep the home fans coming and that would never happen whilst 2 or 3 teams had a strangle hold on the leagues.
Solutions: wage capping and draft pick which bring about balance and mean any team has a chance as it is pretty much a level playing field.
What could we do in England:
1) Cap wages (this could be difficult if the wrest of europe won't do it)
2) Cap the clubs capital expenditure and only alow a set amount each sseason to be spent on wages and transfers.
Hay presto level playing field and ferguson gets f**ked
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Post by cousindupree on Jul 11, 2008 8:21:47 GMT
The Prem is all about money and as in most walks of life the rich get richer.....I think a super league isnt far away and most of the biggest clubs would certainly vote for that. Maybe then the prem would become exciting and competitive...its not at the moment and there seems no end to the dominance of probably chelsea and manure....I agree its becoming more like the SPL only on a bigger mad richer level....we will enjoy the season as it brings better quality football and some seriously good footballers...but I think the excitement level will be low unless we are still in the battle to stay up with 2 months to go
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Post by lordb on Jul 11, 2008 13:01:02 GMT
European super league just wont happen
you cant have a League of 60 clubs without dividing it up & the clubs wont want that.
a functional European superleague would have at the very most 3 English clubs so 1 of the 'big 4' would miss out.
best thing for football would be for SKY & Setanta to go tits up
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