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Post by Robo10 on Jan 8, 2024 10:56:08 GMT
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Post by Scouse on Jan 8, 2024 10:56:14 GMT
Can anyone remember when, and why, the capacity of the Victoria Ground dropped from the 31,000 of the Coventry and 1988 Vale game to the 24,000 odd that it finished up with? My memories are vague as I was only a kid at that time but I don't remember any major layout changes in the ground that would facilitate a capacity drop of around 7,000. I'm guessing it was Hillsborough related and we were forced to drop the capacity of our terraces? Things were changing even prior to Hillsborough .. the Stoke end stand was built from memory because the terrace there needed 200k spent on replacing barriers just to keep it as it was .. around that time grants started to be made available to clubs to improve facilities , though from memory & Im sure the detail was slightly different , you needed to pay for work then claim 50% back ..inevitably that favoured the bigger clubs who already had access to the money , where in effect there were grounds further down the leagues in desperate state of disrepair. Hillsborough hastened things rapidly , ground capacities in general were cut , large terrace capacities were cut drastically But as always reactive action , especially when done in a blind panic , produces mistakes ..but clearly there was fear within the game and government of another disaster being likely given the appalling safety standards at some grounds .. though not related to Hillsbrough , increased organised hooliganism was also a real concerning .. as groups would actively work to side step existing inadequate safety & crowd control measures They really needed to take a breath and plan properly and calmly .. but the fear was that delay could result in other disasters
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insect
Youth Player
Posts: 290
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Post by insect on Jan 8, 2024 10:56:40 GMT
My memories of the Boothen End capacity has always been 17,000 not sure where I heard or read this but 17,000 capacity has always been in my mind since 1970 !
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Post by lordb on Jan 8, 2024 11:01:30 GMT
Can anyone remember when, and why, the capacity of the Victoria Ground dropped from the 31,000 of the Coventry and 1988 Vale game to the 24,000 odd that it finished up with? My memories are vague as I was only a kid at that time but I don't remember any major layout changes in the ground that would facilitate a capacity drop of around 7,000. I'm guessing it was Hillsborough related and we were forced to drop the capacity of our terraces? Things were changing even prior to Hillsborough .. the Stoke end stand was built from memory because the terrace there needed 200k spent on replacing barriers just to keep it as it was .. around that time grants started to be made available to clubs to improve facilities , though from memory & Im sure the detail was slightly different , you needed to pay for work then claim 50% back ..inevitably that favoured the bigger clubs who already had access to the money , where in effect there were grounds further down the leagues in desperate state of disrepair. Hillsborough hastened things rapidly , ground capacities in general were cut , large terrace capacities were cut drastically But as always reactive action , especially when done in a blind panic , produces mistakes ..but clearly there was fear within the game and government of another disaster being likely given the appalling safety standards at some grounds .. though not related to Hillsbrough , increased organised hooliganism was also a real concerning .. as groups would actively work to side step existing inadequate safety & crowd control measures They really needed to take a breath and plan properly and calmly .. but the fear was that delay could result in other disasters all that & yes terrace capacities everywhere we're reduced after Hillsborough
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Post by mickstupp on Jan 8, 2024 11:11:21 GMT
Can anyone remember when, and why, the capacity of the Victoria Ground dropped from the 31,000 of the Coventry and 1988 Vale game to the 24,000 odd that it finished up with? My memories are vague as I was only a kid at that time but I don't remember any major layout changes in the ground that would facilitate a capacity drop of around 7,000. I'm guessing it was Hillsborough related and we were forced to drop the capacity of our terraces? We lost 3000 seats in the Butler Street Stand when we built those executive boxes in 1989. That’s the reason why we got 31,000+ for the Coventry and Liverpool FA Cup games, but only 27k against the Vale. Just prior to that, we closed the corner section in between the Butler and Boothen End and never reopened it. I’m guessing there were around 1000 seats in there.
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Post by SamB_SCFC on Jan 8, 2024 12:20:52 GMT
This is an interesting photo. Does anyone know how long this configuration lasted with the last remaining section of the old Butler Street roof over what was later to become the condemned clock corner, next to the new Butler Street roof? And was the removal of that corner of old roof (presumably forced on the club on safety grounds) what caused that corner to become condemned? Can anyone remember when, and why, the capacity of the Victoria Ground dropped from the 31,000 of the Coventry and 1988 Vale game to the 24,000 odd that it finished up with? My memories are vague as I was only a kid at that time but I don't remember any major layout changes in the ground that would facilitate a capacity drop of around 7,000. I'm guessing it was Hillsborough related and we were forced to drop the capacity of our terraces? We lost 3000 seats in the Butler Street Stand when we built those executive boxes in 1989. That’s the reason why we got 31,000+ for the Coventry and Liverpool FA Cup games, but only 27k against the Vale. Just prior to that, we closed the corner section in between the Butler and Boothen End and never reopened it. I’m guessing there were around 1000 seats in there. When the corner closed, was it the same time as we removed this old section of roof? And was that the reason for the corner becoming condemned?
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Post by milton58 on Jan 8, 2024 12:40:06 GMT
Can remember playing Liverpool on boxing day boothen was rammed to many people in there that day...tc came on and scored
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Post by Mr_DaftBurger on Jan 8, 2024 15:28:15 GMT
I remember people were actually sitting down in the Boothen End at an end of season game! 😄
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Post by mickstupp on Jan 8, 2024 15:33:25 GMT
View AttachmentThis is an interesting photo. Does anyone know how long this configuration lasted with the last remaining section of the old Butler Street roof over what was later to become the condemned clock corner, next to the new Butler Street roof? And was the removal of that corner of old roof (presumably forced on the club on safety grounds) what caused that corner to become condemned? We lost 3000 seats in the Butler Street Stand when we built those executive boxes in 1989. That’s the reason why we got 31,000+ for the Coventry and Liverpool FA Cup games, but only 27k against the Vale. Just prior to that, we closed the corner section in between the Butler and Boothen End and never reopened it. I’m guessing there were around 1000 seats in there. When the corner closed, was it the same time as we removed this old section of roof? And was that the reason for the corner becoming condemned? Yes, the roof was deemed unsafe. They removed that section of roof in the summer of 1983 and closed the corner off. Occasionally you would still see fans standing in the paddock, but the seats were taken out and the remaining wooden structure was left open to the elements. I’m unsure as to why it wasn’t covered like the stoke end/butler street corner was. I can only presume we ran out of money which was a shame, it looked like a real eye sore just left to rot away like that.
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Post by skemstokie on Jan 8, 2024 15:49:12 GMT
I know the capacity when it closed was 9500 but does anyone know the capacity in.the 50s and 60s. As many as they could get on no real health and safety or counting numbers in them days, I've seen 49 plus thousand in the vic in the 70s so i would say the boothen held at least 15-18 thousand back then. My memory of the Boothen end was against Leeds when we stopped them setting a new unbeaten record, we were packed in like sardines me and my mate were standing behind a barrier when two young girls (17/18 years old) walked past in front of the barrier each holding a beefburger in either hand aloft my mate took a bite out of one of the burgers often wonder if they sussed out what had happened when they started their burgers?
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Post by redandy on Jan 8, 2024 18:29:28 GMT
I'm a whippersnapper compared to some of you guys, but I can remember as a teen the Coventry cup 5th round 1987 (34k?) and there was no room in the Boothen, the first Vale derby 1988 was heaving too Cant imagine 50k+ in the owd duck, even with the old Stoke end terrace People were much thinner back then, saw an old video (from the 70's) and there is barely any overweight people in large crowd.
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Post by SamB_SCFC on Jan 8, 2024 19:12:03 GMT
View AttachmentThis is an interesting photo. Does anyone know how long this configuration lasted with the last remaining section of the old Butler Street roof over what was later to become the condemned clock corner, next to the new Butler Street roof? And was the removal of that corner of old roof (presumably forced on the club on safety grounds) what caused that corner to become condemned? When the corner closed, was it the same time as we removed this old section of roof? And was that the reason for the corner becoming condemned? Yes, the roof was deemed unsafe. They removed that section of roof in the summer of 1983 and closed the corner off. Occasionally you would still see fans standing in the paddock, but the seats were taken out and the remaining wooden structure was left open to the elements. I’m unsure as to why it wasn’t covered like the stoke end/butler street corner was. I can only presume we ran out of money which was a shame, it looked like a real eye sore just left to rot away like that. That's interesting. I've wanted to know for years when that open corner was first abandoned and no one I've asked has ever known for sure. Just vague guesses between late 70s and mid 80s. I was born in 1983 so obviously explains why I can't remember it in use. I did go into there once when I went on a ground tour around 1994 or 95. They let us go in there and walk around the deserted concourse, was quite eerie. Can only assume it was money as to why they didn't cover it. The new roof caused us financial problems that lasted for decades so I'd imagine we simply couldn't stretch to that corner. Architecturally it probably costs more to build a roof over a curved corner too. The flat, straight roof over the main part of the stand was probably cheaper.
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insect
Youth Player
Posts: 290
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Post by insect on Jan 8, 2024 19:24:35 GMT
I'm a whippersnapper compared to some of you guys, but I can remember as a teen the Coventry cup 5th round 1987 (34k?) and there was no room in the Boothen, the first Vale derby 1988 was heaving too Cant imagine 50k+ in the owd duck, even with the old Stoke end terrace People were much thinner back then, saw an old video (from the 70's) and there is barely any overweight people in large crowd. 😂😂
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Post by rotweiss79 on Jan 8, 2024 19:29:24 GMT
We're the middle We're the middle We're the middle of the Boothen End
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Post by woodin43 on Jan 8, 2024 19:49:37 GMT
I remember the smell as you walked up the steps from under the Boothen End. Cigars and cigarettes. Then the buzz when you got to the top of the steps...how full was the Boothen? How many had they bought in the Stoke End? Were the cameras there? Great times.
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Post by middleoftheboothen on Jan 8, 2024 20:10:38 GMT
We're the middle We're the middle We're the middle of the Boothen End I'm the middle of the Boothen thankyou very much 😉
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Post by OldStokie on Jan 8, 2024 20:27:00 GMT
I remember when the Stoke End was just a red ash bank with no steps. It was the early 50's I think and the only crowd control were the barriers in there. I've been in the Boothen when you couldn't move, and when Stoke scored, that was a mass movement of fans and you ended up being yards away from where you were originally standing. It was brilliant mayhem and I've often thought since how dangerous it was and am surprised nobody was crushed to death against the barriers that were stopping all the supporters piling onto one another. The safest place to stand was just pitchside of the barriers. Great days they were though.
OS.
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Post by felonious on Jan 8, 2024 20:41:47 GMT
I'm a whippersnapper compared to some of you guys, but I can remember as a teen the Coventry cup 5th round 1987 (34k?) and there was no room in the Boothen, the first Vale derby 1988 was heaving too Cant imagine 50k+ in the owd duck, even with the old Stoke end terrace People were much thinner back then, saw an old video (from the 70's) and there is barely any overweight people in large crowd. It changed when they started selling those waffer thin mints.
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Post by durbanscircus on Jan 8, 2024 21:27:43 GMT
When I went first in the 1970s the Vics capacity officially was around 50,000 I think
broke down roughly as follows.
Stoke End 15,000- it felt bigger as it reached a peak under the scoreboard , where it was taller than the Boothen , but then it sloped down steeply to meet the Butler Street
The Boothen was symmetrical although as Scouse says it wasnt a broad stand , but it didnt slope like the Stoke End and I think it had a bigger capacity- 16,000.
We had 9,000 seats and I would think that 6,000 of those were in the Butler Street and 3,000 in the posh Boothen stand,, I would say in its pomp the Butler Street Terrace would have been 6,000 and maybe 3-4,000 in the Boothen paddocks- giving 49,000- 50,000- I dont think we actually hit 50,000 in the 70s with the highest being 49,000 against Man U- so maybe 3,000 in the Boothen Paddocks
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Post by rotweiss79 on Jan 8, 2024 21:56:42 GMT
We're the middle We're the middle We're the middle of the Boothen End I'm the middle of the Boothen thankyou very much 😉 Deepest apologies.
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Post by jesusmcmuffin on Jan 8, 2024 22:16:15 GMT
86/87 (Coventry) and 89/90 (Vale) away fans were in the Stoke end Yeah we always got moved for high profile games. Yep I had a season ticket, Stoke End seats. About 4 games a season we'd be moved, Villa, Man City etc
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Post by Laughing Gravy on Jan 8, 2024 22:38:33 GMT
I remember the smell as you walked up the steps from under the Boothen End. Cigars and cigarettes. Then the buzz when you got to the top of the steps...how full was the Boothen? How many had they bought in the Stoke End? Were the cameras there? Great times. You forgot the overpowering smell of piss from the bogs in the Boothen stand corner.
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Post by temp1 on Jan 8, 2024 23:07:55 GMT
I'm 57. The most full I recall the Boothen being was a midweek fixture against Forest in 1979, just after we were promoted. Would have been Oct or Sept 1979.They were title holders I think and Clough was manager. The official, announced attendance was also high, but given the seats are constant, and the way attendance declarations were often manipulated when standing areas were prominent, the attendance was probably higher than the 28.5k declared. It was significantly more packed than the 36k attendance declared for the Coventry FA Cup game in 1987 for example.
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Post by danceswithclams on Jan 10, 2024 22:49:45 GMT
The smell of water burgers, fried onions, stale lager and fag smoke The fuck is a 'water burger'? My overriding memories of the old Boothen End was that of the stench of hot piss and Pedigree farts. (and 'Door X')
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Post by jesusmcmuffin on Jan 11, 2024 0:26:18 GMT
I was an experienced 14 year old by then lol catching buses from Biddulph to Hanley and walking down to the ground - day or night matches - cant imagine letting my lad do that! The corp boxes didnt exist in the last season I sat in the Butler Street (1985), I've a feeling they were a Jez Moxey thing in the late 80s/early 90s Attendances were poor all through the early 80s so I cant remember if anybody stood by the clock in my time (had a ST aged 5 in 1979) - but I've seen loads of vids of the early / mid 70s where people are in it I cant remember the old Stoke End open terrace at all, only the newer stand, and there was a 'family stand' of sorts between the Stoke End and Butler Street (my auntie sat in there so I used to amble down from my seats to say hello) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_GroundTrying to think of the boxes were there before Moxey I have a feeling they were. Rob was the guy in charge of selling hospitality, got a feeling Moxey came after but not 100%
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Post by middleoftheboothen on Jan 11, 2024 3:42:50 GMT
The smell of water burgers, fried onions, stale lager and fag smoke The fuck is a 'water burger'? My overriding memories of the old Boothen End was that of the stench of hot piss and Pedigree farts. (and 'Door X') He is the older brother of our midfielder Wouter Burger and grew up standing on the Boothen eating fried onions, drinking stale lager and smoking his tits off. He is the one who convinced Wouter to sign for us in the summer to play out his dreams through him.
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Post by Scouse on Jan 11, 2024 5:54:09 GMT
The smell of water burgers, fried onions, stale lager and fag smoke The fuck is a 'water burger'? My overriding memories of the old Boothen End was that of the stench of hot piss and Pedigree farts. (and 'Door X') Before all this new fangled ..cooking 100% beef burgers on a grill lark and served with fresh tomato , a choice of relish etc .. burgers and the onions, especially at the football or outside grounds , clubs at closing etc , were cooked in a luke warm watery mess They were probably ham back then , though the actual % of meat was questionable , the low meat content realistically being the only thing that stopped thousands coming down with something worse than cholera , cooked ( warmed ) , boiled in a watery mess , ( the temperature never got to boiling point or anywhere near it ) as were the onions and served in a stale bun , by a bloke in a dirty stained white butchers coat that hadn’t been washed since the first day it was worn , that was used alternatively as a handkerchief ( the sleeve ) and towel ( sides ) for when the said burger seller washed his hands in the fore mentioned watery mess after having a slash .. hygiene 0 .. and footie fans bought them in their thousands
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Post by mickstupp on Jan 11, 2024 8:52:24 GMT
I was an experienced 14 year old by then lol catching buses from Biddulph to Hanley and walking down to the ground - day or night matches - cant imagine letting my lad do that! The corp boxes didnt exist in the last season I sat in the Butler Street (1985), I've a feeling they were a Jez Moxey thing in the late 80s/early 90s Attendances were poor all through the early 80s so I cant remember if anybody stood by the clock in my time (had a ST aged 5 in 1979) - but I've seen loads of vids of the early / mid 70s where people are in it I cant remember the old Stoke End open terrace at all, only the newer stand, and there was a 'family stand' of sorts between the Stoke End and Butler Street (my auntie sat in there so I used to amble down from my seats to say hello) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_GroundTrying to think of the boxes were there before Moxey I have a feeling they were. Rob was the guy in charge of selling hospitality, got a feeling Moxey came after but not 100% Yes we built those boxes in summer 1989. Moxey came in around 1994 ish .
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Post by Robo10 on Jan 11, 2024 9:04:29 GMT
The smell of water burgers, fried onions, stale lager and fag smoke The fuck is a 'water burger'? My overriding memories of the old Boothen End was that of the stench of hot piss and Pedigree farts. (and 'Door X') As Scouse eloquently puts it, the burger (I dont want to use the word stand, it was a hole in the limestone wall) had a big tray of hot water, in which round brown products resembling 'meat' were kept warm and served with onion that smelled of sweat (its ever likely I dont eat them and am fairly disturbed by them still at 49), onto a cardboard bap You can still buy them, in tins, where they reside in brine! The 'hamburgers' if honest I didnt mind the taste of (not sure if I would buy one now though lol) - certainly nicer than some of the dry, carpet tasting ones we have served at the B365 over the years but I think they have improved, the ones outside generally better! Attachment Deleted
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Post by fishlovesoatcakes on Jan 11, 2024 9:10:54 GMT
The fuck is a 'water burger'? My overriding memories of the old Boothen End was that of the stench of hot piss and Pedigree farts. (and 'Door X') As Scouse eloquently puts it, the burger (I dont want to use the word stand, it was a hole in the limestone wall) had a big tray of hot water, in which round brown products resembling 'meat' were kept warm and served with onion that smelled of sweat (its ever likely I dont eat them and am fairly disturbed by them still at 49), onto a cardboard bap You can still buy them, in tins, where they reside in brine! The 'hamburgers' if honest I didnt mind the taste of (not sure if I would buy one now though lol) - certainly nicer than some of the dry, carpet tasting ones we have served at the B365 over the years but I think they have improved, the ones outside generally better! View AttachmentThose burgers were fucking dreadful. The onions were dried and ketchup full of vinegar. It's hardly surprising that CJD came on the scene a decade or so later.
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