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Post by lordb on Aug 28, 2023 14:11:01 GMT
I remember really struggling to afford to go to matches financially around that time. But football was also hugely unpopular and unfashionable largely due to hooliganism. Thatcher eh!....bloody dark times. It was still mostly a working class sport and at that time working and non-working folk were getting battered. In 1982 Unemployment was over 10% the highest it had been for 50 years. 1 in 8 adults out of work. Inflation 10%. Desperate stuff. People getting angry
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Post by SamB_SCFC on Aug 28, 2023 15:11:02 GMT
It's interesting to think how things would have been different without Sky and the creation of the Premier League. I think things would have improved gradually from the 80s nadir but a lot more slowly and crowds throughout the leagues would be lower than they are now. I think it would be a much more even competition with less of this huge sports washing foreign investment. But at the same time the First Division would be a lower standard, lesser league and we'd probably be behind other European leagues like Spain, Italy and maybe even Germany. I think we'd be something like France's Ligue 1 (excluding PSG) in terms of European standing and performance. Who knows though? Pay TV buying the rights was inevitable as technology progressed and TV moved from 3 or 4 analogue channels to firstly multi channel digital TV and then online streaming. Maybe Sky would have got a hold of the First Division rights anyway and a similar progression would have happened regardless? You think clubs would have survived on those gates, no TV money etc! You seem to forget that in those days the league was still dominated by one or two teams and crowds were falling annually. I think it's blatantly obvious where football was going. Were talks re making divisions 3 and 4 part time just so clubs could survive It's a very interesting discussion with different opinions. Personally I think the bigger factors in the resurgence of football in England in the 90s were the Hillsborough disaster, Italia 90 World Cup and Euro 96. Hillsborough was the watershed moment in terms of the treatment of fans and the facilities they were housed in. Never again could fans be housed like animals behind cages with no escape if something went wrong. And the Taylor report forced clubs to invest in their ancient, crumbling stadia and replace the 50 plus year old stands with absolutely no safety planning in their construction and death trap wooden stands which probably prevented further disasters which I think would have happened without the intervention. This also helped to attract more fans to the grounds who were put off by the shit, intimidating facilities previously. Italia 90 also played a big part in changing national attitudes towards football and got the public at large back in love with football again. The success of reaching the semi finals, characters like Gazza, England fans generally behaving better than usual, it rekindled public interest in football away from the traditional hardcore fans. And Euro 96 continued the work started with 1990 with the feel good factor of the tournament that brought the country together. No crowd trouble. Legendary games and moments like thrashing Holland 4-1, Gazza's goal against Scotland, the heartbreak of another penalty shootout defeat to Germany after a tight game etc. The establishment of the Premier League and Sky's investment built on these foundations in my opinion, rather than being the foundation itself if you know what I mean. It certainly was massively important though by providing the finance to get the Taylor Report ground improvements done. Providing the money to attract foreign stars to the Premier League that previously were going to places like Serie A etc. So the stars of Euro 96 started turning up in England, building on the momentum that tournament had established etc. It all worked together in dragging football back from the doldrums. So all in all, I think football had started on its upward trajectory even before Sky's money. I just think the improvement would have been, slower, more incremental and the First Division would have ended up as a much weaker league than the Premier League has become, but a more even one. TV money would have come in anyway because of the inevitable advance of technology. If it wasn't Sky someone else would have done it. But the timing of Sky's investment and the very good business decisions they made was what allowed the Premier League to become the beast that it is now.
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Post by lordb on Aug 28, 2023 15:46:19 GMT
You think clubs would have survived on those gates, no TV money etc! You seem to forget that in those days the league was still dominated by one or two teams and crowds were falling annually. I think it's blatantly obvious where football was going. Were talks re making divisions 3 and 4 part time just so clubs could survive It's a very interesting discussion with different opinions. Personally I think the bigger factors in the resurgence of football in England in the 90s were the Hillsborough disaster, Italia 90 World Cup and Euro 96. Hillsborough was the watershed moment in terms of the treatment of fans and the facilities they were housed in. Never again could fans be housed like animals behind cages with no escape if something went wrong. And the Taylor report forced clubs to invest in their ancient, crumbling stadia and replace the 50 plus year old stands with absolutely no safety planning in their construction and death trap wooden stands which probably prevented further disasters which I think would have happened without the intervention. This also helped to attract more fans to the grounds who were put off by the shit, intimidating facilities previously. Italia 90 also played a big part in changing national attitudes towards football and got the public at large back in love with football again. The success of reaching the semi finals, characters like Gazza, England fans generally behaving better than usual, it rekindled public interest in football away from the traditional hardcore fans. And Euro 96 continued the work started with 1990 with the feel good factor of the tournament that brought the country together. No crowd trouble. Legendary games and moments like thrashing Holland 4-1, Gazza's goal against Scotland, the heartbreak of another penalty shootout defeat to Germany after a tight game etc. The establishment of the Premier League and Sky's investment built on these foundations in my opinion, rather than being the foundation itself if you know what I mean. It certainly was massively important though by providing the finance to get the Taylor Report ground improvements done. Providing the money to attract foreign stars to the Premier League that previously were going to places like Serie A etc. So the stars of Euro 96 started turning up in England, building on the momentum that tournament had established etc. It all worked together in dragging football back from the doldrums. So all in all, I think football had started on its upward trajectory even before Sky's money. I just think the improvement would have been, slower, more incremental and the First Division would have ended up as a much weaker league than the Premier League has become, but a more even one. TV money would have come in anyway because of the inevitable advance of technology. If it wasn't Sky someone else would have done it. But the timing of Sky's investment and the very good business decisions they made was what allowed the Premier League to become the beast that it is now. All good points I think the FV had changed by 1990 Still plenty of it but seemed to be a change in attitude from other fans towards hooligans
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Post by Gods on Aug 28, 2023 15:50:58 GMT
We beat Arsenal on the opening day of the previous season (1981) as well, that time 1-0 at Highbury with Lee Chapman getting the goal. Attendance 28,212.
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Post by Robo10 on Aug 28, 2023 15:56:57 GMT
First few seasons I can remember 82-84 aged 8-10 (had a season ticket in 1979 - my Grandad was determined I wouldnt end up a Sunderland fan like my dad, much to my dads disgust lol)
Butler Street, Block C, Row 2. Right in the middle on the halfway line - I didnt actually go into the Boothen until after my grandad had passed and I started going on my own aged 12 or 13 in 1986 (on a bus from Biddulph to Hanley, then walking down through the park - inc night games - imagine that now!)
I soon picked up a straggler set of mates from school who started to come too!
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Post by Cyprusdelilah on Aug 28, 2023 23:09:25 GMT
I was going in the Butler St. Stand then, 2 quid for under 15's, I was 15 then.. Two years later I was still doing it, one day a man on the turnstile Says, 'ah other turnstile lad, under 15's here'. Calmly I said, 'Im only 15 mate'. He says, You're a big boy arn't you. I said, 'how do you know', he had a laugh. Can you see people on turnstiles or stewards doing that today.
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Post by Dutchpeter on Aug 29, 2023 0:37:15 GMT
Unemployment in some places was beginning to bite hard , especially up here , but FV was also at or approaching its peak .. hugely impacting on attendances .. as FV bit many family orientated supporters and indeed many fans in general turned their back on the game , meaning grounds were even more dangerous to visit resulting in a downward spiral effect on gates Grim times for those that stuck with the game and their clubs , especially if you went away regularly rather than just the one or two decent turnouts .. fans in general were hated and despised by just about everyone and everything admitting to being a football fan wasn’t always a wise move career wise Even the shit had many sub 40k gates , including some low 30s ..though not unless you speak to their genuine lot Historian Dominic Sandbrook thinks that the prosperity of the 1960s/70s had an effect on the low crowds. Older fans had money to do different things with their spare time, maybe even listen to their wife and indulge family life more. Once there was a working class hierarchy of males- Dads, Uncles, older brothers, at some point there was young white working class males making up a lot of support, well into the 1990s. The older guys had disappeared into their sheds or were taking the family out in their cortina’s.
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Post by JoeinOz on Aug 29, 2023 1:11:51 GMT
Newly anointed European champions Aston, draw a crowd of 22,000ish. And get walloped by Sunderland.
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Post by Northy on Aug 29, 2023 8:15:01 GMT
That’s a really late start to a season. 28th August? There was a world cup that year, but we did tend to start a bit later than now as well.
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Post by Northy on Aug 29, 2023 8:20:50 GMT
We beat Arsenal on the opening day of the previous season (1981) as well, that time 1-0 at Highbury with Lee Chapman getting the goal. Attendance 28,212. Yep, I was in the clock end for that one, although missed the goal as I was down below getting a beer and with a loud cheer thought Arsenal had scored, a van load of us went down, had extra people coming back, drinks around London first, stopped a few places on the way back, first was Watford and picked up the pink newspaper to see we had won 1 - 0 not lost, cracking day out
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Post by march4 on Aug 29, 2023 8:22:05 GMT
Chamberlain destroyed the England full back Kenny Sansom that day. Best debut I think I’ve seen from a Stoke player.
Chapman made his debut for Arsenal.
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Post by Northy on Aug 29, 2023 9:02:57 GMT
Chamberlain destroyed the England full back Kenny Sansom that day. Best debut I think I’ve seen from a Stoke player. Chapman made his debut for Arsenal. the 'Clap hands you've got Chapman song' Had a run in with Arsenals fans at the station, we were waiting at Platform 3 for the Kidsgrove train when their special pulled in, as they boarded some opened the doors and went across the tracks and others ran under the tunnel, they had to run back when they signalled for the train to go.
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Post by jesusmcmuffin on Aug 29, 2023 9:05:11 GMT
One of my first games. Graham Rix had an excellent game for Arsenal also.
The Villa crowd is very strange. Was it restricted at all?
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Post by Northy on Aug 29, 2023 9:07:23 GMT
True, crowds of 12-15 k were common in the top flight Nonsense …..the boothen was always heaving mass of bodies Well that’s what I read on here Wasn't that more of the 70's ?
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Post by jesusmcmuffin on Aug 29, 2023 10:07:18 GMT
You think clubs would have survived on those gates, no TV money etc! You seem to forget that in those days the league was still dominated by one or two teams and crowds were falling annually. I think it's blatantly obvious where football was going. Were talks re making divisions 3 and 4 part time just so clubs could survive It's a very interesting discussion with different opinions. Personally I think the bigger factors in the resurgence of football in England in the 90s were the Hillsborough disaster, Italia 90 World Cup and Euro 96. Hillsborough was the watershed moment in terms of the treatment of fans and the facilities they were housed in. Never again could fans be housed like animals behind cages with no escape if something went wrong. And the Taylor report forced clubs to invest in their ancient, crumbling stadia and replace the 50 plus year old stands with absolutely no safety planning in their construction and death trap wooden stands which probably prevented further disasters which I think would have happened without the intervention. This also helped to attract more fans to the grounds who were put off by the shit, intimidating facilities previously. Italia 90 also played a big part in changing national attitudes towards football and got the public at large back in love with football again. The success of reaching the semi finals, characters like Gazza, England fans generally behaving better than usual, it rekindled public interest in football away from the traditional hardcore fans. And Euro 96 continued the work started with 1990 with the feel good factor of the tournament that brought the country together. No crowd trouble. Legendary games and moments like thrashing Holland 4-1, Gazza's goal against Scotland, the heartbreak of another penalty shootout defeat to Germany after a tight game etc. The establishment of the Premier League and Sky's investment built on these foundations in my opinion, rather than being the foundation itself if you know what I mean. It certainly was massively important though by providing the finance to get the Taylor Report ground improvements done. Providing the money to attract foreign stars to the Premier League that previously were going to places like Serie A etc. So the stars of Euro 96 started turning up in England, building on the momentum that tournament had established etc. It all worked together in dragging football back from the doldrums. So all in all, I think football had started on its upward trajectory even before Sky's money. I just think the improvement would have been, slower, more incremental and the First Division would have ended up as a much weaker league than the Premier League has become, but a more even one. TV money would have come in anyway because of the inevitable advance of technology. If it wasn't Sky someone else would have done it. But the timing of Sky's investment and the very good business decisions they made was what allowed the Premier League to become the beast that it is now. I remember Bowler the owner think it was at Crewe saying that without Sky, even the lesser money filtered down , then the club wouldn't have made it. They were later able to build a new stand etc. Sky played a massive part in making football cool again, I agree that the Euros helped also. Was a game at Crewe where they had to have a pub whip round to keep the electric on for a Friday night game and they had basically given up . The FA would have punished them and was only a few fans who kept them above water at the time . One of the chaps involved, a chap called Clive Pointon literally went around with a few fans with buckets to raise a few hundred quid. The only answer at the time was to go semi pro as had been suggested for both 3rd and 4th division clubs. Crewe pulled in around 1800 fans in those days and weren't alone and look how they grew their academy etc after that. TV money was a Godsend .
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Post by AlliG on Aug 29, 2023 14:25:14 GMT
It's a very interesting discussion with different opinions. Personally I think the bigger factors in the resurgence of football in England in the 90s were the Hillsborough disaster, Italia 90 World Cup and Euro 96. Hillsborough was the watershed moment in terms of the treatment of fans and the facilities they were housed in. Never again could fans be housed like animals behind cages with no escape if something went wrong. And the Taylor report forced clubs to invest in their ancient, crumbling stadia and replace the 50 plus year old stands with absolutely no safety planning in their construction and death trap wooden stands which probably prevented further disasters which I think would have happened without the intervention. This also helped to attract more fans to the grounds who were put off by the shit, intimidating facilities previously. Italia 90 also played a big part in changing national attitudes towards football and got the public at large back in love with football again. The success of reaching the semi finals, characters like Gazza, England fans generally behaving better than usual, it rekindled public interest in football away from the traditional hardcore fans. And Euro 96 continued the work started with 1990 with the feel good factor of the tournament that brought the country together. No crowd trouble. Legendary games and moments like thrashing Holland 4-1, Gazza's goal against Scotland, the heartbreak of another penalty shootout defeat to Germany after a tight game etc. The establishment of the Premier League and Sky's investment built on these foundations in my opinion, rather than being the foundation itself if you know what I mean. It certainly was massively important though by providing the finance to get the Taylor Report ground improvements done. Providing the money to attract foreign stars to the Premier League that previously were going to places like Serie A etc. So the stars of Euro 96 started turning up in England, building on the momentum that tournament had established etc. It all worked together in dragging football back from the doldrums. So all in all, I think football had started on its upward trajectory even before Sky's money. I just think the improvement would have been, slower, more incremental and the First Division would have ended up as a much weaker league than the Premier League has become, but a more even one. TV money would have come in anyway because of the inevitable advance of technology. If it wasn't Sky someone else would have done it. But the timing of Sky's investment and the very good business decisions they made was what allowed the Premier League to become the beast that it is now. I remember Bowler the owner think it was at Crewe saying that without Sky, even the lesser money filtered down , then the club wouldn't have made it. They were later able to build a new stand etc. Sky played a massive part in making football cool again, I agree that the Euros helped also. Was a game at Crewe where they had to have a pub whip round to keep the electric on for a Friday night game and they had basically given up . The FA would have punished them and was only a few fans who kept them above water at the time . One of the chaps involved, a chap called Clive Pointon literally went around with a few fans with buckets to raise a few hundred quid. The only answer at the time was to go semi pro as had been suggested for both 3rd and 4th division clubs. Crewe pulled in around 1800 fans in those days and weren't alone and look how they grew their academy etc after that. TV money was a Godsend . Crewe had already started their conveyor belt approach to bringing in young players cheaply (or developing their own) and selling one or two each season (Platt, Thomas, Pemberton etc) for good money well before Sky appeared.
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Post by jesusmcmuffin on Aug 29, 2023 14:45:51 GMT
I remember Bowler the owner think it was at Crewe saying that without Sky, even the lesser money filtered down , then the club wouldn't have made it. They were later able to build a new stand etc. Sky played a massive part in making football cool again, I agree that the Euros helped also. Was a game at Crewe where they had to have a pub whip round to keep the electric on for a Friday night game and they had basically given up . The FA would have punished them and was only a few fans who kept them above water at the time . One of the chaps involved, a chap called Clive Pointon literally went around with a few fans with buckets to raise a few hundred quid. The only answer at the time was to go semi pro as had been suggested for both 3rd and 4th division clubs. Crewe pulled in around 1800 fans in those days and weren't alone and look how they grew their academy etc after that. TV money was a Godsend . Crewe had already started their conveyor belt approach to bringing in young players cheaply (or developing their own) and selling one or two each season (Platt, Thomas, Pemberton etc) for good money well before Sky appeared. When Crewe sold David Platt it barely covered their debts at the time, in fact it didn't . I think was 500 k of which they received 125k up front. None of those players came through the Academy like later. Were basically doing the same as any other club, having to sell players to survive they weren't developing their own so to speak , they were flipping players they'd bought from clubs where in cases like Platt and Savage they hadn't made the grade.
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Post by roylandstoke on Aug 29, 2023 14:52:49 GMT
Peasant Boothen stand for me And me. I was and still am baffled as to why so many had boiled sweets with them. What purpose did they serve? Another horrendous wind blowing into the stand, don't worry, we have boiled sweets in a tin. My Dad was a bit cooler, we had chocolate limes My dad and the old boys around him always had boiled sweets: I thought it was just a Paddock thing.
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Post by march4 on Aug 29, 2023 15:03:00 GMT
And me. I was and still am baffled as to why so many had boiled sweets with them. What purpose did they serve? Another horrendous wind blowing into the stand, don't worry, we have boiled sweets in a tin. My Dad was a bit cooler, we had chocolate limes My dad and the old boys around him always had boiled sweets: I thought it was just a Paddock thing. Boiled sweets were a necessity. They were even better in August when they had had the summer to go soft and sticky in your coat pocket.
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Post by skip on Aug 29, 2023 15:04:38 GMT
Man utd aside, crowds were generally pretty poor in the 80s Seem to recall the all conqering Liverpool teams regularly getting crowds in the low 30k’s True, crowds of 12-15 k were common in the top flight Butler Street stand. Nipper price ticket. Go in and choose a seat. Then when you get bored, move to another seat to see the Top Division Action from a slightly different perspective.
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Post by AlliG on Aug 29, 2023 15:04:50 GMT
Crewe had already started their conveyor belt approach to bringing in young players cheaply (or developing their own) and selling one or two each season (Platt, Thomas, Pemberton etc) for good money well before Sky appeared. When Crewe sold David Platt it barely covered their debts at the time, in fact it didn't . I think was 500 k of which they received 125k up front. None of those players came through the Academy like later. Were basically doing the same as any other club, having to sell players to survive they weren't developing their own so to speak , they were flipping players they'd bought from clubs where in cases like Platt and Savage they hadn't made the grade. The players they "flipped" were all young(ish) free transfers who had been released by their previous clubs. The deals confirmed to the club that they could go down the path of developing young players and selling them on. (Most clubs say that is what they plan to do, but, very few actually do. Going back to when I first started watching Crewe games, most of their team were tired old pros). Remember, "He Who Cannot Be Named" was appointed manager in 1983. The Sky money has made football a more profitable business for clubs and players, especially at the higher levels, but there are as many, in fact probably more, professional football clubs that have gone to the wall in the 30 years since Sky than in the preceding 30 years.
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Post by skip on Aug 29, 2023 15:07:26 GMT
Unemployment in some places was beginning to bite hard , especially up here , but FV was also at or approaching its peak .. hugely impacting on attendances .. as FV bit many family orientated supporters and indeed many fans in general turned their back on the game , meaning grounds were even more dangerous to visit resulting in a downward spiral effect on gates Grim times for those that stuck with the game and their clubs , especially if you went away regularly rather than just the one or two decent turnouts .. fans in general were hated and despised by just about everyone and everything admitting to being a football fan wasn’t always a wise move career wise Even the shit had many sub 40k gates , including some low 30s ..though not unless you speak to their genuine lot Historian Dominic Sandbrook thinks that the prosperity of the 1960s/70s had an effect on the low crowds. Older fans had money to do different things with their spare time, maybe even listen to their wife and indulge family life more. Once there was a working class hierarchy of males- Dads, Uncles, older brothers, at some point there was young white working class males making up a lot of support, well into the 1990s. The older guys had disappeared into their sheds or were taking the family out in their cortina’s. Don't get me started on Dominic Sandbrook. Oh you have. The least qualified cultural commentator who gets plum jobs by saying that the 1980s were actually kind to the British Working Class contrary to what every other fucker remembers.
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Post by jesusmcmuffin on Aug 29, 2023 15:15:18 GMT
When Crewe sold David Platt it barely covered their debts at the time, in fact it didn't . I think was 500 k of which they received 125k up front. None of those players came through the Academy like later. Were basically doing the same as any other club, having to sell players to survive they weren't developing their own so to speak , they were flipping players they'd bought from clubs where in cases like Platt and Savage they hadn't made the grade. The players they "flipped" were all young(ish) free transfers who had been released by their previous clubs. The deals confirmed to the club that they could go down the path of developing young players and selling them on. (Most clubs say that is what they plan to do, but, very few actually do. Going back to when I first started watching Crewe games, most of their team were tired old pros). Remember, "He Who Cannot Be Named" was appointed manager in 1983. The Sky money has made football a more profitable business for clubs and players, especially at the higher levels, but there are as many, in fact probably more, professional football clubs that have gone to the wall in the 30 years since Sky than in the preceding 30 years. They were basically players with no clubs as youngsters from the NW in general. Bottom line is they were a seriously struggling club like so many at the time who could later go on, develop their facilities etc and live to fight another day and beyond. The Sky TV comment was from Bowler btw, not me
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Post by AlliG on Aug 29, 2023 15:35:42 GMT
The players they "flipped" were all young(ish) free transfers who had been released by their previous clubs. The deals confirmed to the club that they could go down the path of developing young players and selling them on. (Most clubs say that is what they plan to do, but, very few actually do. Going back to when I first started watching Crewe games, most of their team were tired old pros). Remember, "He Who Cannot Be Named" was appointed manager in 1983. The Sky money has made football a more profitable business for clubs and players, especially at the higher levels, but there are as many, in fact probably more, professional football clubs that have gone to the wall in the 30 years since Sky than in the preceding 30 years. They were basically players with no clubs as youngsters from the NW in general. Bottom line is they were a seriously struggling club like so many at the time who could later go on, develop their facilities etc and live to fight another day and beyond. The Sky TV comment was from Bowler btw, not me I don't disagree that the Sky money has made it easier for a well run club to survive nowadays. Conversely, it also seems to have made it easier for badly run clubs to go bust. After Accrington Stanley in 1962, I can remember Third Lanark folding in 1967 but I am struggling to think of any others who actually folded before Sky arrived. I suppose the cost to rescue a club in those days was relatively small. You didn't need to be a multi-millionaire/billionaire to do it. (I used to know one of the people who rescued Wolves from the verge of bankruptcy in the 1980s. He was a local businessman with not even anywhere near to Mark 1 Peter Coates level money.)
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Post by march4 on Aug 29, 2023 16:49:08 GMT
They were basically players with no clubs as youngsters from the NW in general. Bottom line is they were a seriously struggling club like so many at the time who could later go on, develop their facilities etc and live to fight another day and beyond. The Sky TV comment was from Bowler btw, not me I don't disagree that the Sky money has made it easier for a well run club to survive nowadays. Conversely, it also seems to have made it easier for badly run clubs to go bust. After Accrington Stanley in 1962, I can remember Third Lanark folding in 1967 but I am struggling to think of any others who actually folded before Sky arrived. I suppose the cost to rescue a club in those days was relatively small. You didn't need to be a multi-millionaire/billionaire to do it. (I used to know one of the people who rescued Wolves from the verge of bankruptcy in the 1980s. He was a local businessman with not even anywhere near to Mark 1 Peter Coates level money.) Workington Town Bradford Park Avenue Maidstone went completely bust Didn't Chester go, as well? Aldershot?
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Post by AlliG on Aug 29, 2023 17:05:00 GMT
I don't disagree that the Sky money has made it easier for a well run club to survive nowadays. Conversely, it also seems to have made it easier for badly run clubs to go bust. After Accrington Stanley in 1962, I can remember Third Lanark folding in 1967 but I am struggling to think of any others who actually folded before Sky arrived. I suppose the cost to rescue a club in those days was relatively small. You didn't need to be a multi-millionaire/billionaire to do it. (I used to know one of the people who rescued Wolves from the verge of bankruptcy in the 1980s. He was a local businessman with not even anywhere near to Mark 1 Peter Coates level money.) Workington Town Bradford Park Avenue Maidstone went completely bust Didn't Chester go, as well? Aldershot? I know Workington Town nearly went bust a few times after failing to be re-elected to the Football League but I think they (just) managed to survive. I had forgotten about Bradford PA (1974) but Bury, Macclesfield, Rushden & Diamonds, Aldershot, Darlington and probably a few more I have forgotten are all post 1992.
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Post by JoeinOz on Aug 30, 2023 12:14:34 GMT
You think clubs would have survived on those gates, no TV money etc! You seem to forget that in those days the league was still dominated by one or two teams and crowds were falling annually. I think it's blatantly obvious where football was going. Were talks re making divisions 3 and 4 part time just so clubs could survive It's a very interesting discussion with different opinions. Personally I think the bigger factors in the resurgence of football in England in the 90s were the Hillsborough disaster, Italia 90 World Cup and Euro 96. Hillsborough was the watershed moment in terms of the treatment of fans and the facilities they were housed in. Never again could fans be housed like animals behind cages with no escape if something went wrong. And the Taylor report forced clubs to invest in their ancient, crumbling stadia and replace the 50 plus year old stands with absolutely no safety planning in their construction and death trap wooden stands which probably prevented further disasters which I think would have happened without the intervention. This also helped to attract more fans to the grounds who were put off by the shit, intimidating facilities previously. Italia 90 also played a big part in changing national attitudes towards football and got the public at large back in love with football again. The success of reaching the semi finals, characters like Gazza, England fans generally behaving better than usual, it rekindled public interest in football away from the traditional hardcore fans. And Euro 96 continued the work started with 1990 with the feel good factor of the tournament that brought the country together. No crowd trouble. Legendary games and moments like thrashing Holland 4-1, Gazza's goal against Scotland, the heartbreak of another penalty shootout defeat to Germany after a tight game etc. The establishment of the Premier League and Sky's investment built on these foundations in my opinion, rather than being the foundation itself if you know what I mean. It certainly was massively important though by providing the finance to get the Taylor Report ground improvements done. Providing the money to attract foreign stars to the Premier League that previously were going to places like Serie A etc. So the stars of Euro 96 started turning up in England, building on the momentum that tournament had established etc. It all worked together in dragging football back from the doldrums. So all in all, I think football had started on its upward trajectory even before Sky's money. I just think the improvement would have been, slower, more incremental and the First Division would have ended up as a much weaker league than the Premier League has become, but a more even one. TV money would have come in anyway because of the inevitable advance of technology. If it wasn't Sky someone else would have done it. But the timing of Sky's investment and the very good business decisions they made was what allowed the Premier League to become the beast that it is now. Good points. When you get them documentaries reminiscing on Italia 90 they get the timeline wrong. The supporter vibe was changing well before Hillsborough. The inflatable fad in the months prior was supporters beginning to reclaim the game.
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Post by SamB_SCFC on Aug 30, 2023 12:29:08 GMT
It's a very interesting discussion with different opinions. Personally I think the bigger factors in the resurgence of football in England in the 90s were the Hillsborough disaster, Italia 90 World Cup and Euro 96. Hillsborough was the watershed moment in terms of the treatment of fans and the facilities they were housed in. Never again could fans be housed like animals behind cages with no escape if something went wrong. And the Taylor report forced clubs to invest in their ancient, crumbling stadia and replace the 50 plus year old stands with absolutely no safety planning in their construction and death trap wooden stands which probably prevented further disasters which I think would have happened without the intervention. This also helped to attract more fans to the grounds who were put off by the shit, intimidating facilities previously. Italia 90 also played a big part in changing national attitudes towards football and got the public at large back in love with football again. The success of reaching the semi finals, characters like Gazza, England fans generally behaving better than usual, it rekindled public interest in football away from the traditional hardcore fans. And Euro 96 continued the work started with 1990 with the feel good factor of the tournament that brought the country together. No crowd trouble. Legendary games and moments like thrashing Holland 4-1, Gazza's goal against Scotland, the heartbreak of another penalty shootout defeat to Germany after a tight game etc. The establishment of the Premier League and Sky's investment built on these foundations in my opinion, rather than being the foundation itself if you know what I mean. It certainly was massively important though by providing the finance to get the Taylor Report ground improvements done. Providing the money to attract foreign stars to the Premier League that previously were going to places like Serie A etc. So the stars of Euro 96 started turning up in England, building on the momentum that tournament had established etc. It all worked together in dragging football back from the doldrums. So all in all, I think football had started on its upward trajectory even before Sky's money. I just think the improvement would have been, slower, more incremental and the First Division would have ended up as a much weaker league than the Premier League has become, but a more even one. TV money would have come in anyway because of the inevitable advance of technology. If it wasn't Sky someone else would have done it. But the timing of Sky's investment and the very good business decisions they made was what allowed the Premier League to become the beast that it is now. Good points. When you get them documentaries reminiscing on Italia 90 they get the timeline wrong. The supporter vibe was changing well before Hillsborough. The inflatable fad in the months prior was supporters beginning to reclaim the game. That's interesting. I've got very hazy childhood memories of the Pink Panthers and can remember Italia 90 and crying after the penalty shootout. But I was only a little kid around 6 or 7 back then so all the wider cultural stuff obviously went over my head. I can definitely remember the change throughout the 90s and Euro 96 being a particular watershed moment in terms of the widespread appeal of the game and the changing of the image from the old stereotypes of brainless thugs and crumbling grounds to a much more welcoming, family friendly image. It came with downsides obviously and laid the groundwork for some of the worst excesses of modern social media fans. But overall I think it's been a benefit compared with a continuation of how things were before. I think there was a point in the mid/late 90s when the balance between the old and new footballing worlds was just about right and it's a shame that couldn't have been bottled and preserved.
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