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Post by Vermelho20312505 on Aug 15, 2023 22:37:26 GMT
Oh, I thought you were saying that’s what people remember generally, rather than just you personally, apologies. I think players want to win things and credit to Kane for going for a different experience late in his career. Don’t think beating Shearer’s pretend record is worth stopping for myself. Well it's a personal opinion, but I do feel like people would talk more about a league top scorer than just winning a bundesliga title. If he goes and wins the Champions League fair enough, but I just felt like it was the wrong move for him at this time. I agree with your point on the prestige about being the top scorers. Greaves proves that point I suppose as on his death this was the main point made rather than what he had won. However, that's us. What about the players themselves? Greaves wanted to be in that first 11 in the World Cup Final more than any record goals total. I bet Shearer wouldn't swap his Premier League winners medal for another 100 Newcastle goals. Kane has won fuck all. A bundesliga winners medal would mean alot to him. And we both agree that a Champions League winners medal would definitely be worth it. How many teams have a realistic chance of winners the Champions League right now? Not many, but Bayern are one of them. |
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Post by Vermelho20312505 on Aug 15, 2023 22:38:54 GMT
No. The name changed. It was, and is still, the top flight of English football. Who administers the league, which TV stations show it and what it is called is irrelevant. I hope you'd feel the same as me if these 3 things change again in the future. It will still be the to division in English football. It's a Premier League record hence why the records are from the Premier League or Shearer would've been on 280+ I get what you're saying, but the record is what it is and there's no bullshit about it if we're talking just the Premier League right? I suppose we're splitting hairs at the end of the day. If we said Shearer is the record goalscorer since 1992. That would be equally as accurate and wouldn't mislead anyone. Doesn't sound as good though does it?! |
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Post by riccyfuller93 on Aug 15, 2023 22:39:50 GMT
Well it's a personal opinion, but I do feel like people would talk more about a league top scorer than just winning a bundesliga title. If he goes and wins the Champions League fair enough, but I just felt like it was the wrong move for him at this time. I agree with your point on the prestige about being the top scorers. Greaves proves that point I suppose as on his death this was the main point made rather than what he had won. However, that's us. What about the players themselves? Greaves wanted to be in that first 11 in the World Cup Final more than any record goals total. I bet Shearer wouldn't swap his Premier League winners medal for another 100 Newcastle goals. Kane has won fuck all. A bundesliga winners medal would mean alot to him. And we both agree that a Champions League winners medal would definitely be worth it. How many teams have a realistic chance of winners the Champions League right now? Not many, but Bayern are one of them. Are they really a team to be considered though? Tuchel hasn't started that well. I can't really see them winning it, but as you said it's still a chance at that is appealing to most players. I just wish that he went to City when he had that chance last season. Or 2 seasons ago it was? I can't remember. |
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Post by Vermelho20312505 on Aug 15, 2023 22:42:20 GMT
I agree with your point on the prestige about being the top scorers. Greaves proves that point I suppose as on his death this was the main point made rather than what he had won. However, that's us. What about the players themselves? Greaves wanted to be in that first 11 in the World Cup Final more than any record goals total. I bet Shearer wouldn't swap his Premier League winners medal for another 100 Newcastle goals. Kane has won fuck all. A bundesliga winners medal would mean alot to him. And we both agree that a Champions League winners medal would definitely be worth it. How many teams have a realistic chance of winners the Champions League right now? Not many, but Bayern are one of them. Are they really a team to be considered though? Tuchel hasn't started that well. I can't really see them winning it, but as you said it's still a chance at that is appealing to most players. I just wish that he went to City when he had that chance last season. Or 2 seasons ago it was? I can't remember. I also wanted him to go to City last year as I thought he was the missing link to get then over the line. But Haaland did it instead! I think that left Kane out in the cold and the risk of letting his contract run for a year might have left him without an option as good as Bayern. I don't think Bayern will win the Champions League either but it's not out of the question and Kane increases their chances massively. |
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Post by riccyfuller93 on Aug 15, 2023 22:42:50 GMT
It's a Premier League record hence why the records are from the Premier League or Shearer would've been on 280+ I get what you're saying, but the record is what it is and there's no bullshit about it if we're talking just the Premier League right? I suppose we're splitting hairs at the end of the day. If we said Shearer is the record goalscorer since 1992. That would be equally as accurate and wouldn't mislead anyone. Doesn't sound as good though does it?! I know what you're saying and yeah it is kind of unfair that records are deleted or overlooked. I guess there's a reason to that which I can't explain, but to just be able to say you're the highest scoring player in "Premier League" history surely would be a better thing to tell the grandkids rather than "I went to Bayern Munich and won the league there" I guess it's just a personal preference thing, if he wants to win trophies and that's ultimately his only goal then it's a better choice than Spurs, just a shame he has to go to Germany to try and win something. |
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Post by Vermelho20312505 on Aug 15, 2023 22:46:06 GMT
I suppose we're splitting hairs at the end of the day. If we said Shearer is the record goalscorer since 1992. That would be equally as accurate and wouldn't mislead anyone. Doesn't sound as good though does it?! I know what you're saying and yeah it is kind of unfair that records are deleted or overlooked. I guess there's a reason to that which I can't explain, but to just be able to say you're the highest scoring player in "Premier League" history surely would be a better thing to tell the grandkids rather than "I went to Bayern Munich and won the league there" I guess it's just a personal preference thing, if he wants to win trophies and that's ultimately his only goal then it's a better choice than Spurs, just a shame he has to go to Germany to try and win something. Understood. Imagine Shearer being gutted when he can't tell his Grandkids about his record because the league got renamed the Super Duper League and the all time record goalscorer in that league was Callum Wilson.  |
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Post by riccyfuller93 on Aug 15, 2023 22:49:17 GMT
I know what you're saying and yeah it is kind of unfair that records are deleted or overlooked. I guess there's a reason to that which I can't explain, but to just be able to say you're the highest scoring player in "Premier League" history surely would be a better thing to tell the grandkids rather than "I went to Bayern Munich and won the league there" I guess it's just a personal preference thing, if he wants to win trophies and that's ultimately his only goal then it's a better choice than Spurs, just a shame he has to go to Germany to try and win something. Understood. Imagine Shearer being gutted when he can't tell his Grandkids about his record because the league got renamed the Super Duper League and the all time record goalscorer in that league was Callum Wilson. Yeah I guess it's just the way it is when leagues are changed or whatever, even if it is still the top flight of English Football. It's probably impacted me in a certain way because it's always been a topic heavily talked about amongst friends and even at work so I've always been hoping that Kane would smash that record. |
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Post by Vermelho20312505 on Aug 15, 2023 22:52:58 GMT
Understood. Imagine Shearer being gutted when he can't tell his Grandkids about his record because the league got renamed the Super Duper League and the all time record goalscorer in that league was Callum Wilson. Yeah I guess it's just the way it is when leagues are changed or whatever, even if it is still the top flight of English Football. It's probably impacted me in a certain way because it's always been a topic heavily talked about amongst friends and even at work so I've always been hoping that Kane would smash that record. You're probably much younger than me. I think that makes a difference on perception. I'm a big fan of Kane. On the plus side, I think it reflects very well on our football when our top players go abroad and succeed. Feel the same about Jude Bellingham who might never play in the Premier League but will be a superstar (if he isn't already). |
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Post by PotterLog on Aug 15, 2023 23:16:29 GMT
Aside from the branding element, there’s a straightforward reason as to why Premier League records are legitimate and separate from (or at least a subset of) top-flight records, and that is that far fewer games are played. It’s a bit like comparing points tallies before and after three points for a win was introduced, you’re obviously playing by different rules and the difference is worth noting.
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Post by Vermelho20312505 on Aug 16, 2023 7:09:30 GMT
Aside from the branding element, there’s a straightforward reason as to why Premier League records are legitimate and separate from (or at least a subset of) top-flight records, and that is that far fewer games are played. It’s a bit like comparing points tallies before and after three points for a win was introduced, you’re obviously playing by different rules and the difference is worth noting. You have a point when it comes to single season records like Haaland's last year. When talking history, the number of teams in the division has changed over time going up from a small number all the way up to 22 and now down to 20. To demonstrate that this is less relevant. Here are the top 5 all-time top flight scorers showing goals and games played: Greaves 357 in 516 Bloomer 314 in 535 Dean 310 in 362 Hodgson 288 in 455 Shearer 283 in 559 (In PL Shearer has 260 in 441). So Shearer has played by far the most games. So the shortened PL makes no difference whatsoever over a career. |
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Post by thisisouryear on Aug 16, 2023 8:00:54 GMT
I agree that winning the league wouldn't be a great feat at Bayern. But is it a better feat than finishing 8th with Spurs... And yes, it is a bullshit record. Shearer is the 4th all time highest scorer in the top flight in England. Kane is 19th I believe. If you think it's okay to reset the clock on records whenever you fancy it then Shearer's "record" will simply be deleted at that time. I bey Greaves thought his record would be hard to beat, I doubt he imagined it would be deleted. But isn't that because the league changed? I don't really get your argument, the premier league is still the division 1 of English football no matter how many times they change the name. All records should be from when it started or where the data started to be collected. The Carabao cup is still the league cup and that changes its name all the time but the records stand. They just like to be selective with their statistics. |
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Post by PotterLog on Aug 16, 2023 12:54:15 GMT
Aside from the branding element, there’s a straightforward reason as to why Premier League records are legitimate and separate from (or at least a subset of) top-flight records, and that is that far fewer games are played. It’s a bit like comparing points tallies before and after three points for a win was introduced, you’re obviously playing by different rules and the difference is worth noting. You have a point when it comes to single season records like Haaland's last year. When talking history, the number of teams in the division has changed over time going up from a small number all the way up to 24 and now down to 20. To demonstrate that this is less relevant. Here are the top 5 all-time top flight scorers showing goals and games played: Greaves 357 in 516 Bloomer 314 in 535 Dean 310 in 362 Hodgson 288 in 455 Shearer 283 in 559 (In PL Shearer has 260 in 441). So Shearer has played by far the most games. So the shortened PL makes no difference whatsoever over a career. Fair point, but it’s a bit of a false conclusion to say it makes no difference at all. If Shearer had had eight more games a season over his 14(?) PL seasons, he’d likely be closer to 2nd in that overall list. Likewise Kane would probably have 40 or 50 more goals if he’d had 80 more Prem games to play with - although you could then start to get into the weeds about performance and fitness being affected by the higher intensity etc. I totally agree that the pre-Prem era gets overlooked but I also think the start of the PL is a valid cut-off point for record-keeping because it marked such a dramatic change in the game (not only in the number of matches, also money, foreign players, pitches, higher professionalism in training, diet etc). |
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Post by AlliG on Aug 16, 2023 13:19:52 GMT
You have a point when it comes to single season records like Haaland's last year. When talking history, the number of teams in the division has changed over time going up from a small number all the way up to 24 and now down to 20. To demonstrate that this is less relevant. Here are the top 5 all-time top flight scorers showing goals and games played: Greaves 357 in 516 Bloomer 314 in 535 Dean 310 in 362 Hodgson 288 in 455 Shearer 283 in 559 (In PL Shearer has 260 in 441). So Shearer has played by far the most games. So the shortened PL makes no difference whatsoever over a career. Fair point, but it’s a bit of a false conclusion to say it makes no difference at all. If Shearer had had eight more games a season over his 14(?) PL seasons, he’d likely be closer to 2nd in that overall list. Likewise Kane would probably have 40 or 50 more goals if he’d had 80 more Prem games to play with - although you could then start to get into the weeds about performance and fitness being affected by the higher intensity etc. I totally agree that the pre-Prem era gets overlooked but I also think the start of the PL is a valid cut-off point for record-keeping because it marked such a dramatic change in the game (not only in the number of matches, also money, foreign players, pitches, higher professionalism in training, diet etc). The 1st Division has only ever had 24 teams when it wasn't the "top flight" of English football, so neither Kane or Shearer would have had 8 more games a season if they had played in a different era. |
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Post by PotterLog on Aug 16, 2023 14:37:36 GMT
Fair point, but it’s a bit of a false conclusion to say it makes no difference at all. If Shearer had had eight more games a season over his 14(?) PL seasons, he’d likely be closer to 2nd in that overall list. Likewise Kane would probably have 40 or 50 more goals if he’d had 80 more Prem games to play with - although you could then start to get into the weeds about performance and fitness being affected by the higher intensity etc. I totally agree that the pre-Prem era gets overlooked but I also think the start of the PL is a valid cut-off point for record-keeping because it marked such a dramatic change in the game (not only in the number of matches, also money, foreign players, pitches, higher professionalism in training, diet etc). The 1st Division has only ever had 24 teams when it wasn't the "top flight" of English football, so neither Kane or Shearer would have had 8 more games a season if they had played in a different era. Oh yeah. I'm talking shit then  Well it was still four more games but yes that does dilute the point somewhat |
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Post by Vermelho20312505 on Aug 16, 2023 18:38:04 GMT
You have a point when it comes to single season records like Haaland's last year. When talking history, the number of teams in the division has changed over time going up from a small number all the way up to 24 and now down to 20. To demonstrate that this is less relevant. Here are the top 5 all-time top flight scorers showing goals and games played: Greaves 357 in 516 Bloomer 314 in 535 Dean 310 in 362 Hodgson 288 in 455 Shearer 283 in 559 (In PL Shearer has 260 in 441). So Shearer has played by far the most games. So the shortened PL makes no difference whatsoever over a career. Fair point, but it’s a bit of a false conclusion to say it makes no difference at all. If Shearer had had eight more games a season over his 14(?) PL seasons, he’d likely be closer to 2nd in that overall list. Likewise Kane would probably have 40 or 50 more goals if he’d had 80 more Prem games to play with - although you could then start to get into the weeds about performance and fitness being affected by the higher intensity etc. I totally agree that the pre-Prem era gets overlooked but I also think the start of the PL is a valid cut-off point for record-keeping because it marked such a dramatic change in the game (not only in the number of matches, also money, foreign players, pitches, higher professionalism in training, diet etc). So you're saying they could have even more games to beat the old records? How fair is that? Shearer is already 70+ behind Greaves having played 40+ more games. Would giving him another 80 games to beat it be an achievement? I don't agree that there was a marked difference in 1992. The changes you highlight are the same for every player of that particular era. Are you suggesting it is harder to score goals on better pitches, if players are paid more money or if everyone is more professional? It's always the same for all players in that era. I don't see any justification for a cut-off of the records. |
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Post by Vermelho20312505 on Aug 16, 2023 18:42:01 GMT
The 1st Division has only ever had 24 teams when it wasn't the "top flight" of English football, so neither Kane or Shearer would have had 8 more games a season if they had played in a different era. Oh yeah. I'm talking shit then Well it was still four more games but yes that does dilute the point somewhat I might be being thick as shit here but there would be 8 more games a season when increasing from 20 to 24 wouldn't there?! Assuming they got to play all those games. Those older players didn't play every game, perhaps because they would be literally assaulted by defenders every week. |
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Post by PotterLog on Aug 16, 2023 19:53:06 GMT
Oh yeah. I'm talking shit then Well it was still four more games but yes that does dilute the point somewhat I might be being thick as shit here but there would be 8 more games a season when increasing from 20 to 24 wouldn't there?! Assuming they got to play all those games. Those older players didn't play every game, perhaps because they would be literally assaulted by defenders every week. Yeah what AlliG was pointing out was that there were never 24 teams in the top flight, it used to be 22. So you're saying they could have even more games to beat the old records? How fair is that? Shearer is already 70+ behind Greaves having played 40+ more games. Would giving him another 80 games to beat it be an achievement? I don't agree that there was a marked difference in 1992. The changes you highlight are the same for every player of that particular era. Are you suggesting it is harder to score goals on better pitches, if players are paid more money or if everyone is more professional? It's always the same for all players in that era. I don't see any justification for a cut-off of the records. Might be harder, might be easier, I dunno. It doesn't really matter, I just feel that the advent of the PL marked enough of a sea change in the English game that the records are worth keeping separately. As a subset of the all-time ones, obviously. I get your points though and they're fair enough. |
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Post by riccyfuller93 on Aug 18, 2023 20:47:34 GMT
But isn't that because the league changed? I don't really get your argument, the premier league is still the division 1 of English football no matter how many times they change the name. All records should be from when it started or where the data started to be collected. The Carabao cup is still the league cup and that changes its name all the time but the records stand. They just like to be selective with their statistics. I do agree with it, but it's not always so black and white. Things can change with leagues regarding rules etc hence why it's the "Premier league top scorer" not the all time top flight scorer. Either way the current record even if it is morally right or whatever... I still wish that Kane stayed just to knock Shearer of his perch. |
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