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Post by stokieinlondon on Jul 9, 2023 21:45:49 GMT
I have a theory…
It’s not actually the club’s fault, it’s all very circumstantial.
Could it be that we’re just a bit too ‘one of many’ with a very similar location, prospects, wages, size of club, potential to do well, average squad, etc, etc.
We find ourselves within an hour (or so) of Coventry, Birmingham, Derby, WBA, Blackburn, Birmingham City, Bolton (not so much now), Sheffield Wednesday, Wigan, Preston, etc etc etc. *
Therefore our targets are also the targets of everyone else and there’s a delay on moves because their people are talking to more than one of the above. There’s not that much to pull us apart from the rest - we’re in a very similar boat, and therefore we’re always up against many very similar propositions.
I guess to give more pronounced examples, if you want to live in the north east and get paid very well for playing in the premier league then you’re down to one option. Or if you want to live in London and play champions league football next season, again you’re down to one option. For us, we’re offering the same as loads of other clubs so all the negotiations take forever, and the moves don’t get made until the last minute.
Just a thought.
* I know some of these clubs are below us now, that’s not really the point I’m making because it’s over a few years this happens. My point is not to debate who is a similar size club to us.
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Post by lordb on Jul 9, 2023 21:55:06 GMT
It's very simple
players and clubs are all looking for the best deal
We are not the best deal
But the way the Championship is neither are at least 18 other clubs
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Post by stokieinlondon on Jul 9, 2023 21:55:47 GMT
It's very simple players and clubs are all looking for the best deal We are not the best deal But the way the Championship is neither are at least 18 other clubs Yeah, that’s pretty much what I meant. |
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Post by davethebass on Jul 9, 2023 22:02:41 GMT
"...within an hour (or so) of...Bolton (not so much now)". Why, have they moved Bolton further away?!
Haha its alright mate, I know what you mean, they dropped down. And I can see what you saying, I think you're kinda right really.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jul 9, 2023 22:03:25 GMT
Think that’s pretty much it. A lot of players don’t become available until clubs have signed replacements or because they have a few offers on the table and don’t want to rush into a decision.
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Post by stokieinlondon on Jul 9, 2023 22:09:09 GMT
"...within an hour (or so) of...Bolton (not so much now)". Why, have they moved Bolton further away?! Haha its alright mate, I know what you mean, they dropped down. And I can see what you saying, I think you're kinda right really. Ha! Yes, Bolton relocated to northern Cumbria… |
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Post by davethebass on Jul 9, 2023 22:16:39 GMT
"...within an hour (or so) of...Bolton (not so much now)". Why, have they moved Bolton further away?! Haha its alright mate, I know what you mean, they dropped down. And I can see what you saying, I think you're kinda right really. Ha! Yes, Bolton relocated to northern Cumbria… I've got a mate lives in Bolton, he must be well confused lol |
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Post by st3mark on Jul 9, 2023 22:58:32 GMT
In the Pulis days it was a tactic used on purpose with the theory being that we can get the best deal at that point with the selling club being out of time to negotiate higher fees.
A take it or leave it offer on deadline day is more successful than a take it or leave it offer in June. It wasn't a tactic appreciated by some but it made for some exciting deadline days. And at least the club occasionally explained that this was the strategy which as a supporter I could understand even if id have preferred we did it sooner.
In modern times I think it's more in keeping with what others have said, other than the first season we came down when we were spending big on fees and wages we've just become no more appealing than anyone else.
I'd rather leave it late than have teams rip us off though.
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Post by SamB_SCFC on Jul 9, 2023 23:04:56 GMT
You're kinda right. But I think it's a little more simple than that. The kind of player we're after either wants to play for a lower Premier League club or a parachute payment club, or already plays for one. So the players we're after are either holding out for one of those clubs to show an interest, or need a good reason to leave if they're already signed up to one of those clubs. We don't particularly stand out any more amongst 'the rest', so when a player gives up waiting around for a money club to be interested in them there's a lot of similar sized clubs to us who are also interested. So then it takes a lot of negotiation and brinkmanship to get signings over the line and we inevitably miss out on more than we sign. It's frustrating but that's where we are in the food chain now.
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Post by Cyprusdelilah on Jul 9, 2023 23:19:24 GMT
I can see Peter Kay in his next show, there's a bloody bloke down Stoke on Trent. Thinks we've moved bloody Bolton.
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Post by marylandstoke on Jul 10, 2023 0:33:06 GMT
"...within an hour (or so) of...Bolton (not so much now)". Why, have they moved Bolton further away?! Haha its alright mate, I know what you mean, they dropped down. And I can see what you saying, I think you're kinda right really. Ha! Yes, Bolton relocated to northern Cumbria… Carlisle United dislike this post. |
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Post by walrus on Jul 10, 2023 5:42:49 GMT
"...within an hour (or so) of...Bolton (not so much now)". Why, have they moved Bolton further away?! Haha its alright mate, I know what you mean, they dropped down. And I can see what you saying, I think you're kinda right really. Ha! Yes, Bolton relocated to northern Cumbria… Barrow actually relocated their training facilities from south Cumbria to Manchester in order to be able to attract better players, as few were willing to relocate to Barrow given they didn’t have the financial clout to offer long contracts. They just travel to Barrow on home match days. |
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jul 10, 2023 6:21:44 GMT
In the Pulis days it was a tactic used on purpose with the theory being that we can get the best deal at that point with the selling club being out of time to negotiate higher fees. A take it or leave it offer on deadline day is more successful than a take it or leave it offer in June. It wasn't a tactic appreciated by some but it made for some exciting deadline days. And at least the club occasionally explained that this was the strategy which as a supporter I could understand even if id have preferred we did it sooner. In modern times I think it's more in keeping with what others have said, other than the first season we came down when we were spending big on fees and wages we've just become no more appealing than anyone else. I'd rather leave it late than have teams rip us off though. It was also again because a lot of those players weren’t available earlier in the window. Kenwyne wasn’t available until Sunderland signed Gyan. Crouch wasn’t until Spurs signed Adebayor etc. |
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Post by meirparkpotter on Jul 10, 2023 6:49:10 GMT
So the answer is: we don't. It's just how transfer business works oftentimes. The club will get deals done early where they can, but the fact is that its in players and agents interests to have multiple clubs fighting over a player, driving prices up. The club aren't sitting there thinking: "you know what, let's intentionally leave our transfer business until after pre-season..."
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Post by 19notbeaten72 on Jul 10, 2023 7:27:08 GMT
A lot of players would probably look at what has happened over the last 5/6 years & think no not for me I could end up in league 1.
We are not a very attractive club we are stuck in a rut with no sign of making progress.
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Post by Afrojack on Jul 10, 2023 7:28:39 GMT
Its simple. The problem is, people seem to think we have the free pick of every player out there and that said players 100% want to play for us and then moan when such players aren't here one day into the transfer window or someone else gets them. The club could (and do) have a list of players they would like, but no guarantee you will get any
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Post by greystokie on Jul 10, 2023 7:50:04 GMT
In addition it will be well known that we need to sign players having had so many depart and that we have some money to spend. Agents and clubs will see this as an opportunity to demand more money and Stoke, hopefully, will be striving to negotiate the costs down. Deals will consequently take longer to be agreed.
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Post by benjaminbiscuit on Jul 10, 2023 8:06:15 GMT
In addition it will be well known that we need to sign players having had so many depart and that we have some money to spend. Agents and clubs will see this as an opportunity to demand more money and Stoke, hopefully, will be striving to negotiate the costs down. Deals will consequently take longer to be agreed. Its a weird industry when you tell your competitors and suppliers and potential employees your going to have the biggest budget for years 4 months ahead of the competition starting for sure, but i suppose the balance was you need to give supporters a reason to believe around season ticket time and it’s the lesser of two evils . |
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Post by Pugsley on Jul 10, 2023 8:12:17 GMT
So the answer is: we don't. It's just how transfer business works oftentimes. The club will get deals done early where they can, but the fact is that its in players and agents interests to have multiple clubs fighting over a player, driving prices up. The club aren't sitting there thinking: "you know what, let's intentionally leave our transfer business until after pre-season..." They're pretty much doing exactly that. |
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jul 10, 2023 8:16:09 GMT
So the answer is: we don't. It's just how transfer business works oftentimes. The club will get deals done early where they can, but the fact is that its in players and agents interests to have multiple clubs fighting over a player, driving prices up. The club aren't sitting there thinking: "you know what, let's intentionally leave our transfer business until after pre-season..." They're pretty much doing exactly that. In what way? |
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Post by Pugsley on Jul 10, 2023 8:18:09 GMT
They're pretty much doing exactly that. In what way? Hedging bets, not paying over the odds, not committing early, waiting on players rather than forcing the issue. They are intentionally waiting. Is it wrong - time will tell. |
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jul 10, 2023 8:20:11 GMT
Hedging bets, not paying over the odds, not committing early, waiting on players rather than forcing the issue. They are intentionally waiting. Is it wrong - time will tell. Conversations will still be happening though, they won't be sitting around doing nothing. They'll be in contact with those targets and laying the groundwork. We don't know what the budget is or if we're in a position to pay over the odds - plus doing that got us into this mess in the first place. |
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Post by Pugsley on Jul 10, 2023 8:24:31 GMT
Hedging bets, not paying over the odds, not committing early, waiting on players rather than forcing the issue. They are intentionally waiting. Is it wrong - time will tell. Conversations will still be happening though, they won't be sitting around doing nothing. They'll be in contact with those targets and laying the groundwork. We don't know what the budget is or if we're in a position to pay over the odds - plus doing that got us into this mess in the first place. I'm not suggesting we are doing nothing. |
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jul 10, 2023 8:28:05 GMT
Conversations will still be happening though, they won't be sitting around doing nothing. They'll be in contact with those targets and laying the groundwork. We don't know what the budget is or if we're in a position to pay over the odds - plus doing that got us into this mess in the first place. I'm not suggesting we are doing nothing. We're waiting because we have to because that's the game. If we could get those players in now, we would. |
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Post by st3mark on Jul 10, 2023 8:46:20 GMT
In the Pulis days it was a tactic used on purpose with the theory being that we can get the best deal at that point with the selling club being out of time to negotiate higher fees. A take it or leave it offer on deadline day is more successful than a take it or leave it offer in June. It wasn't a tactic appreciated by some but it made for some exciting deadline days. And at least the club occasionally explained that this was the strategy which as a supporter I could understand even if id have preferred we did it sooner. In modern times I think it's more in keeping with what others have said, other than the first season we came down when we were spending big on fees and wages we've just become no more appealing than anyone else. I'd rather leave it late than have teams rip us off though. It was also again because a lot of those players weren’t available earlier in the window. Kenwyne wasn’t available until Sunderland signed Gyan. Crouch wasn’t until Spurs signed Adebayor etc. I suppose thats why it worked so well for a time. When players like Crouch were becoming available on deadline day we'd still got most of our transfer kitty available. Takes a lot of balls to use that strategy, sometimes it will pay off big and sometimes it Will fail massively. |
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Post by noustie on Jul 10, 2023 8:51:03 GMT
Said it before - same reason many of us were scouring the dance floor of Valentinos at quarter to three in the morning or, worse, the kebab shop queue trying to find someone not about to consume their own body weight in chips n cheese.
Unfortunately there is a hierarchy.
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Jul 10, 2023 14:17:23 GMT
Hedging bets, not paying over the odds, not committing early, waiting on players rather than forcing the issue. They are intentionally waiting. Is it wrong - time will tell. Conversations will still be happening though, they won't be sitting around doing nothing. They'll be in contact with those targets and laying the groundwork. We don't know what the budget is or if we're in a position to pay over the odds - plus doing that got us into this mess in the first place.Your last point is spot on. Some Stokies have short memories! |
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Post by pavel on Jul 10, 2023 14:50:24 GMT
Hedging bets, not paying over the odds, not committing early, waiting on players rather than forcing the issue. They are intentionally waiting. Is it wrong - time will tell. Conversations will still be happening though, they won't be sitting around doing nothing. They'll be in contact with those targets and laying the groundwork. We don't know what the budget is or if we're in a position to pay over the odds - plus doing that got us into this mess in the first place. The problem is though that laying the groundwork seems to take an indeterminate amount of time at Stoke, whereas clubs such as Brighton have rigorous succession plans, often years in the making, streamlined decision making processes and top class player research allied with a stable model and approach. I accept that the position we are in is that we neither have the absolute clout, allure or recent success to make this crucial transfer window easy (all of our own making over the last 5/6 years though that's another story) but we have a history of not moving on and waiting rather than forcing the issue. As for paying over the odds, I think it's a bit simplistic to say that's what got us into this mess in the first place, I would say it was paying over the odds without doing proper research and due diligence that caused it. If we had payed over the odds, and let's face it we could afford to, to some extent, and we had done our player research on anything else than a back of a fag packet and the manager's whim, those players could have been a success and we still would have been still up there with the elite. Frankly I don't have a f..ing clue of how things are going and how they will pan out but our recent history doesn't give me a warm feeling. |
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jul 10, 2023 15:00:15 GMT
Conversations will still be happening though, they won't be sitting around doing nothing. They'll be in contact with those targets and laying the groundwork. We don't know what the budget is or if we're in a position to pay over the odds - plus doing that got us into this mess in the first place. The problem is though that laying the groundwork seems to take an indeterminate amount of time at Stoke, whereas clubs such as Brighton have rigorous succession plans, often years in the making, streamlined decision making processes and top class player research allied with a stable model and approach. I accept that the position we are in is that we neither have the absolute clout, allure or recent success to make this crucial transfer window easy (all of our own making over the last 5/6 years though that's another story) but we have a history of not moving on and waiting rather than forcing the issue. As for paying over the odds, I think it's a bit simplistic to say that's what got us into this mess in the first place, I would say it was paying over the odds without doing proper research and due diligence that caused it. If we had payed over the odds, and let's face it we could afford to, to some extent, and we had done our player research on anything else than a back of a fag packet and the manager's whim, those players could have been a success and we still would have been still up there with the elite. Frankly I don't have a f..ing clue of how things are going and how they will pan out but our recent history doesn't give me a warm feeling. Agree about how far we are behind the Brightons and the Brentfords and that we're never in the vanguard of those kind of recruitment processes is a black eye for the owners and speaks to their lack of vision. What would 'forcing the issue' mean? Giving a player a five year contract? Breaking our wage structure? We don't know what's going on, and won't for a while. There's still every chance we could be looking at this as a successful window in a couple of months' time, or it could be a shitshow. To come down firmly on either side of the coin at this point would be daft. I have more optimism than I've had for a while but there's an awful lot of work to do. As far as our recent history goes, we have new people in most of the key roles, don't we? So it's a pretty clean slate in that regard. |
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Post by bridgnorthstokie on Jul 10, 2023 15:03:20 GMT
Conversations will still be happening though, they won't be sitting around doing nothing. They'll be in contact with those targets and laying the groundwork. We don't know what the budget is or if we're in a position to pay over the odds - plus doing that got us into this mess in the first place. The problem is though that laying the groundwork seems to take an indeterminate amount of time at Stoke, whereas clubs such as Brighton have rigorous succession plans, often years in the making, streamlined decision making processes and top class player research allied with a stable model and approach. I accept that the position we are in is that we neither have the absolute clout, allure or recent success to make this crucial transfer window easy (all of our own making over the last 5/6 years though that's another story) but we have a history of not moving on and waiting rather than forcing the issue. As for paying over the odds, I think it's a bit simplistic to say that's what got us into this mess in the first place, I would say it was paying over the odds without doing proper research and due diligence that caused it. If we had payed over the odds, and let's face it we could afford to, to some extent, and we had done our player research on anything else than a back of a fag packet and the manager's whim, those players could have been a success and we still would have been still up there with the elite. Frankly I don't have a f..ing clue of how things are going and how they will pan out but our recent history doesn't give me a warm feeling. My thoughts on your 1st paragraph.. Hopefully the appointment of jared dublin and his data analysis will now start to build up a portfolio of potential future targets. Which will bring in some ability to have forward planning in place. |
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