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Post by starkiller on Jul 1, 2023 5:51:31 GMT
Anyone seen this new one?
Reviews suggest a woke makeover and destruction. If true, this is unforgivable. And if I wasn't suspicious that this would be the approach, I would have been there opening night.
Raiders Of The Lost Ark remains my favourite film. Perfect. From tone, to characterisation, to plot, to style, to action, to pacing, to cinematography, to music. The greatest action flick of all time, with the coolest protagonist.
This quality of filmmaking and writing doesn't seem to exist anymore. Add in identity politics soapboxing and it's particularly off-putting. I don't think Ford's age is the issue, because Top Gun Maverick showed that a send off could be done respectfully.
Can I put myself through watching a destruction, or is it not that bad?
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Post by salopstick on Jul 1, 2023 7:14:36 GMT
the first 3 are brilliant
4 was dog shite
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Post by oggyoggy on Jul 1, 2023 7:36:43 GMT
Anyone seen this new one? Reviews suggest a woke makeover and destruction. If true, this is unforgivable. And if I wasn't suspicious that this would be the approach, I would have been there opening night. Raiders Of The Lost Ark remains my favourite film. Perfect. From tone, to characterisation, to plot, to style, to action, to pacing, to cinematography, to music. The greatest action flick of all time, with the coolest protagonist. This quality of filmmaking and writing doesn't seem to exist anymore. Add in identity politics soapboxing and it's particularly off-putting. I don't think Ford's age is the issue, because Top Gun Maverick showed that a send off could be done respectfully. Can I put myself through watching a destruction, or is it not that bad? So if it was racist and full of prejudice (not woke) you would be happy? Says more about you than the film.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2023 7:59:18 GMT
Anyone seen this new one? Reviews suggest a woke makeover and destruction. If true, this is unforgivable. And if I wasn't suspicious that this would be the approach, I would have been there opening night. Raiders Of The Lost Ark remains my favourite film. Perfect. From tone, to characterisation, to plot, to style, to action, to pacing, to cinematography, to music. The greatest action flick of all time, with the coolest protagonist. This quality of filmmaking and writing doesn't seem to exist anymore. Add in identity politics soapboxing and it's particularly off-putting. I don't think Ford's age is the issue, because Top Gun Maverick showed that a send off could be done respectfully. Can I put myself through watching a destruction, or is it not that bad? So if it was racist and full of prejudice (not woke) you would be happy? Says more about you than the film. That's a ridiculous conclusion to draw from the OP.
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Post by oggyoggy on Jul 1, 2023 8:49:25 GMT
So if it was racist and full of prejudice (not woke) you would be happy? Says more about you than the film. That's a ridiculous conclusion to draw from the OP. He says if true, a “woke makeover” is “unforgivable”. Why does he want it to be full of prejudice? What’s is more likely is he has misused the word woke.
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Post by thehartshillbadger on Jul 1, 2023 9:37:29 GMT
That's a ridiculous conclusion to draw from the OP. He says if true, a “woke makeover” is “unforgivable”. Why does he want it to be full of prejudice? What’s is more likely is he has misused the word woke. It’s nearly as woke as The Last Leg😉
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2023 9:41:08 GMT
That's a ridiculous conclusion to draw from the OP. He says if true, a “woke makeover” is “unforgivable”. Why does he want it to be full of prejudice? What’s is more likely is he has misused the word woke. A movie not being woke does not therefore equal a movie full of prejudice. That’s an absurd logical conclusion. Top gun maverick wasn’t woke. It was just a fun silly film. And it was wildly successful. It’s barmy that a Hollywood blockbuster being apolitical is seen as refreshing these days. And I have an idea of the angle you’re attempting to create here. “Woke just means aware of social issues, why don’t you want your films to be woke you fucking bigot” if that’s the jist of it then save yourself the time.
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Post by thevoid on Jul 1, 2023 10:01:24 GMT
He says if true, a “woke makeover” is “unforgivable”. Why does he want it to be full of prejudice? What’s is more likely is he has misused the word woke. A movie not being woke does not therefore equal a movie full of prejudice. That’s an absurd logical conclusion. Top gun maverick wasn’t woke. It was just a fun silly film. And it was wildly successful. It’s barmy that a Hollywood blockbuster being apolitical is seen as refreshing these days. And I have an idea of the angle you’re attempting to create here. “Woke just means aware of social issues, why don’t you want your films to be woke you fucking bigot” if that’s the jist of it then save yourself the time. Not like Oggy to express his dislike of bigotry by...being bigotted. He must be channelling the CEO of Wickes (oops) 😃 Back to the films, and I'll definitely watch it as I've seen all the others, although I'm not expecting much as the last one was poor and Harrison Ford is knocking on a bit. Do they use CGI to make him look younger? Karen Allen was one of my first crushes in the first film 😋
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Post by starkiller on Jul 1, 2023 10:04:21 GMT
Anyone seen this new one? Reviews suggest a woke makeover and destruction. If true, this is unforgivable. And if I wasn't suspicious that this would be the approach, I would have been there opening night. Raiders Of The Lost Ark remains my favourite film. Perfect. From tone, to characterisation, to plot, to style, to action, to pacing, to cinematography, to music. The greatest action flick of all time, with the coolest protagonist. This quality of filmmaking and writing doesn't seem to exist anymore. Add in identity politics soapboxing and it's particularly off-putting. I don't think Ford's age is the issue, because Top Gun Maverick showed that a send off could be done respectfully. Can I put myself through watching a destruction, or is it not that bad? So if it was racist and full of prejudice (not woke) you would be happy? Says more about you than the film. Some slight strawmanning there. All I'm wondering is whether the main character is deliberately belittled as a man for the elevation of a female protagonist. This pattern has been in Star Wars, Marvel, Bond, Terminator, and in TV shows. It doesn't make characters appealing, and takes one out of the movie into 21st century identity politics. Female lead characters aren't a problem to me, but the need to make quips, or reduce a (normally white) male lead to a shadow of themselves is clumsy, lazy, and unnecessary. If I watch an Indiana Jones film, I want to see Indiana Jones being Indiana Jones. It's fiction, and this is what I'm paying my money for.
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Post by cvillestokie on Jul 1, 2023 10:41:42 GMT
So if it was racist and full of prejudice (not woke) you would be happy? Says more about you than the film. Some slight strawmanning there. All I'm wondering is whether the main character is deliberately belittled as a man at the expense of a female protagonist. This pattern has been in Star Wars, Marvel, Bond, Terminator, and in TV shows. It doesn't make characters appealing, and takes one out of the movie into 21st century identity politics. Female lead characters aren't a problem to me, but the need to make quips, or reduce a (normally white) male lead to a shadow of themselves is clumsy, lazy, and unnecessary. If I watch an Indiana Jones film, I want to see Indiana Jones being Indiana Jones. It's fiction, and this is what I'm paying my money for. What did they do in Star Wars? For Indiana, he’s about 80 years old. I will go to see it but only because I love the first three films. The fourth already made him look old. There’s only so much they can do with Ford now and make it look good. I want to be lost in a movie and not think much about the world around me. However, I’m going to snap out of that trend if an 80 year old is suddenly beating up 10 strongmen in their prime or getting his leg over the prettiest women on set.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2023 10:52:39 GMT
Some slight strawmanning there. All I'm wondering is whether the main character is deliberately belittled as a man at the expense of a female protagonist. This pattern has been in Star Wars, Marvel, Bond, Terminator, and in TV shows. It doesn't make characters appealing, and takes one out of the movie into 21st century identity politics. Female lead characters aren't a problem to me, but the need to make quips, or reduce a (normally white) male lead to a shadow of themselves is clumsy, lazy, and unnecessary. If I watch an Indiana Jones film, I want to see Indiana Jones being Indiana Jones. It's fiction, and this is what I'm paying my money for. What did they do in Star Wars? For Indiana, he’s about 80 years old. I will go to see it but only because I love the first three films. The fourth already made him look old. There’s only so much they can do with Ford now and make it look good. I want to be lost in a movie and not think much about the world around me. However, I’m going to snap out of that trend if an 80 year old is suddenly beating up 10 strongmen in their prime or getting his leg over the prettiest women on set. The character of Rey in the new Star Wars films was a terribly written “mary sue”. I’m not sure how old that term is, maybe it long predates modern times, but the amount of Mary Sues in current media is very silly indeed. I’m not sure who enjoys them, but I’m fairly certain anyone who admires a Mary Sue character would much rather prefer a well written, complex protagonist instead. One with strengths and weaknesses and character progression; someone who can actually be relatable, and not just an inexplicably hyper-competent hyper-powerful female, created for the sole benefit of the tiny proportion of fat, pink haired zombies who are dumb enough to guffaw over one. The blade runner sequel was awesome btw. Harrison Ford played a small but crucial part in it. But I agree that being the lead in an action-adventure at his age is probably too much of a stretch.
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Post by cvillestokie on Jul 1, 2023 11:01:23 GMT
What did they do in Star Wars? For Indiana, he’s about 80 years old. I will go to see it but only because I love the first three films. The fourth already made him look old. There’s only so much they can do with Ford now and make it look good. I want to be lost in a movie and not think much about the world around me. However, I’m going to snap out of that trend if an 80 year old is suddenly beating up 10 strongmen in their prime or getting his leg over the prettiest women on set. The character of Rey in the new Star Wars films was a terribly written “mary sue”. I’m not sure how old that term is, maybe it long predates modern times, but the amount of Mary Sues in current media is very silly indeed. I’m not sure who enjoys them, but I’m fairly certain anyone who admires a Mary Sue character would much rather prefer a well written, complex protagonist instead. One with strengths and weaknesses and character progression; someone who can actually be relatable, and not just an inexplicably hyper-competent hyper-powerful female, created for the sole benefit of the tiny proportion of fat, pink haired zombies who are dumb enough to guffaw over one. The blade runner sequel was awesome btw. Harrison Ford played a small but crucial part in it. But I agree that being the lead in an action-adventure at his age is probably too much of a stretch. I had to look up what Mary Sue actually was: “A Mary Sue is a character archetype in fiction, usually a young woman, who is often portrayed as inexplicably competent across all domains, gifted with unique talents or powers, liked or respected by most other characters, unrealistically free of weaknesses, extremely attractive, innately virtuous, and/or generally lacking meaningful character flaws.” How is this different from Luke Skywalker. Luke had zero training, lived in a desert farm in isolation his whole life yet then went on to destroy a Death Star after being a better fighter pilot than actual fighter pilots. He soon progressed to taking down the Empire despite having limited training from a dying Master. What was his real character flaw? I’m not saying that this isn’t the same for Rey but it just seems like the MO for the Star Wars films. Edit: also, yeah. I liked the new Blade Runner a lot and think they used him well. The issue for big franchises is that people love nostalgia (myself included) so they go back to that cost-effective well. It wouldn’t shock me if this film tries to set up a spin off.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2023 11:09:11 GMT
The character of Rey in the new Star Wars films was a terribly written “mary sue”. I’m not sure how old that term is, maybe it long predates modern times, but the amount of Mary Sues in current media is very silly indeed. I’m not sure who enjoys them, but I’m fairly certain anyone who admires a Mary Sue character would much rather prefer a well written, complex protagonist instead. One with strengths and weaknesses and character progression; someone who can actually be relatable, and not just an inexplicably hyper-competent hyper-powerful female, created for the sole benefit of the tiny proportion of fat, pink haired zombies who are dumb enough to guffaw over one. The blade runner sequel was awesome btw. Harrison Ford played a small but crucial part in it. But I agree that being the lead in an action-adventure at his age is probably too much of a stretch. I had to look up what Mary Sue actually was: “A Mary Sue is a character archetype in fiction, usually a young woman, who is often portrayed as inexplicably competent across all domains, gifted with unique talents or powers, liked or respected by most other characters, unrealistically free of weaknesses, extremely attractive, innately virtuous, and/or generally lacking meaningful character flaws.” How is this different from Luke Skywalker. Luke had zero training, lived in a desert farm in isolation his whole life yet then went on to destroy a Death Star after being a better fighter pilot than actual fighter pilots. He soon progressed to taking down the Empire despite having limited training from a dying Master. What was his real character flaw? I’m not saying that this isn’t the same for Rey but it just seems like the MO for the Star Wars films. There are male Mary Sues (Gary Stu I believe) but I’d argue Luke wasn’t an example. He is a deeply flawed character who has a clear progression arc to go from student to master. But some have argued that he is. They’re less likely to get called out than Mary Sues but they exist. It’s largely a product of bad, incompetent writing; but has been exacerbated in recent times with the increasing politicisation of Hollywood content.
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Post by cvillestokie on Jul 1, 2023 11:23:40 GMT
I had to look up what Mary Sue actually was: “A Mary Sue is a character archetype in fiction, usually a young woman, who is often portrayed as inexplicably competent across all domains, gifted with unique talents or powers, liked or respected by most other characters, unrealistically free of weaknesses, extremely attractive, innately virtuous, and/or generally lacking meaningful character flaws.” How is this different from Luke Skywalker. Luke had zero training, lived in a desert farm in isolation his whole life yet then went on to destroy a Death Star after being a better fighter pilot than actual fighter pilots. He soon progressed to taking down the Empire despite having limited training from a dying Master. What was his real character flaw? I’m not saying that this isn’t the same for Rey but it just seems like the MO for the Star Wars films. There are male Mary Sues (Gary Stu I believe) but I’d argue Luke wasn’t an example. He is a deeply flawed character who has a clear progression arc to go from student to master. But some have argued that he is. They’re less likely to get called out than Mary Sues but they exist. It’s largely a product of bad, incompetent writing; but has been exacerbated in recent times with the increasing politicisation of Hollywood content. It’s an interesting take on Luke. Perhaps through the series he does do that. However, he goes from farmer to Death Star destroyer with zero training. To me, Rey seemed like a bit of a flashback to times when writing was simpler, like the 70s/80s. They tried complex with Anakin and I felt those movies sucked. More on topic, Jones’ only weakness is snakes yet he keeps saving the World on his own/with a family member. He’s incredibly competent across all domains (gunslinger and ridiculously knowledgeable). He’s one of the more handsome men to have ever made it in Hollywood. Everyone loves him. The typical female “lead” drops her guard and then her pants. I still love the film. Action films are typically about a lone wolf/maverick going up against impossible odds. The idea of a Gary Stu or Mary Sue just seems like par for the course for me. Also, Hollywood has always been a political tool. Just look at Reagan. He was very adept at picking the right films to find his way to the very top.
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Post by salopstick on Jul 1, 2023 11:26:45 GMT
So if it was racist and full of prejudice (not woke) you would be happy? Says more about you than the film. Some slight strawmanning there. All I'm wondering is whether the main character is deliberately belittled as a man at the expense of a female protagonist. This pattern has been in Star Wars, Marvel, Bond, Terminator, and in TV shows. It doesn't make characters appealing, and takes one out of the movie into 21st century identity politics. Female lead characters aren't a problem to me, but the need to make quips, or reduce a (normally white) male lead to a shadow of themselves is clumsy, lazy, and unnecessary. If I watch an Indiana Jones film, I want to see Indiana Jones being Indiana Jones. It's fiction, and this is what I'm paying my money for. I want to pay ££ to escape into a movie. If I want to be lectured at about social issues I will watch a documentary or C4 news
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Post by hotterpotter on Jul 1, 2023 11:48:34 GMT
It's almost as if Luke Skywalker had some kind of additional power to draw on.
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Post by lordb on Jul 1, 2023 12:06:49 GMT
Has anyone seen it then?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2023 12:27:41 GMT
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Post by oggyoggy on Jul 1, 2023 12:44:48 GMT
He says if true, a “woke makeover” is “unforgivable”. Why does he want it to be full of prejudice? What’s is more likely is he has misused the word woke. A movie not being woke does not therefore equal a movie full of prejudice. That’s an absurd logical conclusion. Top gun maverick wasn’t woke. It was just a fun silly film. And it was wildly successful. It’s barmy that a Hollywood blockbuster being apolitical is seen as refreshing these days. And I have an idea of the angle you’re attempting to create here. “Woke just means aware of social issues, why don’t you want your films to be woke you fucking bigot” if that’s the jist of it then save yourself the time. You have summed up the argument perfectly in your last paragraph (perhaps removing the expletive). Woke doesn’t mean apolitical. It means what you said at the end.
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Post by oggyoggy on Jul 1, 2023 12:47:21 GMT
So if it was racist and full of prejudice (not woke) you would be happy? Says more about you than the film. Some slight strawmanning there. All I'm wondering is whether the main character is deliberately belittled as a man at the expense of a female protagonist. This pattern has been in Star Wars, Marvel, Bond, Terminator, and in TV shows. It doesn't make characters appealing, and takes one out of the movie into 21st century identity politics. Female lead characters aren't a problem to me, but the need to make quips, or reduce a (normally white) male lead to a shadow of themselves is clumsy, lazy, and unnecessary. If I watch an Indiana Jones film, I want to see Indiana Jones being Indiana Jones. It's fiction, and this is what I'm paying my money for. So you don’t understand what woke means. If a “main character is deliberately belittled as a man at the expense of a female protagonist“ it potentially sounds the opposite of woke (if the belittling is because of the main character’s gender).
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Post by sticky on Jul 1, 2023 13:20:58 GMT
Reviews look terrible but il give it a go.. Suprised we haven’t got a woke thread by now tbh
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Post by lagwafis on Jul 1, 2023 13:56:26 GMT
There are male Mary Sues (Gary Stu I believe) but I’d argue Luke wasn’t an example. He is a deeply flawed character who has a clear progression arc to go from student to master. But some have argued that he is. They’re less likely to get called out than Mary Sues but they exist. It’s largely a product of bad, incompetent writing; but has been exacerbated in recent times with the increasing politicisation of Hollywood content. It’s an interesting take on Luke. Perhaps through the series he does do that. However, he goes from farmer to Death Star destroyer with zero training. The rabid online Star Wars fanbase would eat you alive for that comment To be honest I can't really remember too much at all about the sequels. There are tons of articles, essays and film theory on the whole Luke, Ray thing though. This one's my favourite, mainly because Rambo shows up out of nowhere - www.cultureslate.com/news/bl0vuosab0coo8z6vuefka4tvqjko8
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2023 4:03:15 GMT
A movie not being woke does not therefore equal a movie full of prejudice. That’s an absurd logical conclusion. Top gun maverick wasn’t woke. It was just a fun silly film. And it was wildly successful. It’s barmy that a Hollywood blockbuster being apolitical is seen as refreshing these days. And I have an idea of the angle you’re attempting to create here. “Woke just means aware of social issues, why don’t you want your films to be woke you fucking bigot” if that’s the jist of it then save yourself the time. You have summed up the argument perfectly in your last paragraph (perhaps removing the expletive). Woke doesn’t mean apolitical. It means what you said at the end. The issue is that the meaning/connotation of the word has evolved, and can have far broader meanings depending on context. So it's a frivolous rebuttal when you are fully aware of how OP is using the term. It would be a bit like if somebody used "fit" in place of "attractive", and you, whilst fully aware of the context, pulled them up on it because it's a technical misuse of the term.
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Post by hcstokie on Jul 2, 2023 9:07:51 GMT
Anyone seen this new one? Reviews suggest a woke makeover and destruction. If true, this is unforgivable. And if I wasn't suspicious that this would be the approach, I would have been there opening night. Raiders Of The Lost Ark remains my favourite film. Perfect. From tone, to characterisation, to plot, to style, to action, to pacing, to cinematography, to music. The greatest action flick of all time, with the coolest protagonist. This quality of filmmaking and writing doesn't seem to exist anymore. Add in identity politics soapboxing and it's particularly off-putting. I don't think Ford's age is the issue, because Top Gun Maverick showed that a send off could be done respectfully. Can I put myself through watching a destruction, or is it not that bad?
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Post by stiggerstackle on Jul 2, 2023 10:41:41 GMT
Yup, I took the kids on Friday night. No idea if it was woke or emasculating, but I thoroughly enjoyed it. Not a patch on Indy 1 & 3 (2 is a bit dark for me, watched it with my youngest when he was 6 and regretted it 😁). It’s a bit of a pale imitation, but he’s 80, what can you expect? Reviews are shit, but written by people too full of their own importance to accept they just enjoyed watching their childhood hero one more time. The last 15mins are daft but brilliant 😁
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2023 10:57:43 GMT
Yup, I took the kids on Friday night. No idea if it was woke or emasculating, but I thoroughly enjoyed it. Not a patch on Indy 1 & 3 (2 is a bit dark for me, watched it with my youngest when he was 6 and regretted it 😁). It’s a bit of a pale imitation, but he’s 80, what can you expect? Reviews are shit, but written by people too full of their own importance to accept they just enjoyed watching their childhood hero one more time. The last 15mins are daft but brilliant 😁 The reviews aren't that bad. It has 67% on rotten tomatoes, and actually quite a bit lower (58%) when filtered for top critics. But those aren't shoddy numbers at all.
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Post by dutchstokie on Jul 2, 2023 11:45:34 GMT
Yup, I took the kids on Friday night. No idea if it was woke or emasculating, but I thoroughly enjoyed it. Not a patch on Indy 1 & 3 (2 is a bit dark for me, watched it with my youngest when he was 6 and regretted it 😁). It’s a bit of a pale imitation, but he’s 80, what can you expect? Reviews are shit, but written by people too full of their own importance to accept they just enjoyed watching their childhood hero one more time. The last 15mins are daft but brilliant 😁 Any tits on show....?
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Post by lordb on Jul 2, 2023 11:48:38 GMT
Yup, I took the kids on Friday night. No idea if it was woke or emasculating, but I thoroughly enjoyed it. Not a patch on Indy 1 & 3 (2 is a bit dark for me, watched it with my youngest when he was 6 and regretted it 😁). It’s a bit of a pale imitation, but he’s 80, what can you expect? Reviews are shit, but written by people too full of their own importance to accept they just enjoyed watching their childhood hero one more time. The last 15mins are daft but brilliant 😁 That will do, will go and see it I actually thought the 4th one had it's moments
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Post by starkiller on Jul 2, 2023 11:54:52 GMT
Yup, I took the kids on Friday night. No idea if it was woke or emasculating, but I thoroughly enjoyed it. Not a patch on Indy 1 & 3 (2 is a bit dark for me, watched it with my youngest when he was 6 and regretted it 😁). It’s a bit of a pale imitation, but he’s 80, what can you expect? Reviews are shit, but written by people too full of their own importance to accept they just enjoyed watching their childhood hero one more time. The last 15mins are daft but brilliant 😁 Yes. I think I have to go see it. Some reviews say Ford seemed ready to be more of the central character, but the script sidelines him at times. But if there's some classic Indy in there, I'll ignore anything else I don't like.
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Post by stiggerstackle on Jul 2, 2023 12:28:21 GMT
Yup, I took the kids on Friday night. No idea if it was woke or emasculating, but I thoroughly enjoyed it. Not a patch on Indy 1 & 3 (2 is a bit dark for me, watched it with my youngest when he was 6 and regretted it 😁). It’s a bit of a pale imitation, but he’s 80, what can you expect? Reviews are shit, but written by people too full of their own importance to accept they just enjoyed watching their childhood hero one more time. The last 15mins are daft but brilliant 😁 Any tits on show....? Pied Wagtail flies in front of his tuc-tuc during the Morocco chase…
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