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Post by spitthedog on Dec 21, 2022 11:00:12 GMT
There are a lot of posts bemoaning the quality of the Championship and its interesting to consider some of the factors that contribute to this.
As I understand it next season each Prem team will be allowed to use 5 subs per game with a staggering 15 players allowed on the bench.
That is an awful lot of unused players every game.
Isn't that 300 footballers employed as subs every round of games and at least 200 unused?
Many of these players would surely be employed playing in the Championship if they weren't being paid loads to sit on their respective benches.
Surely, this is bound to have a massive impact on 2nd tier football as Prem team stockpile players who hardly get used?
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Post by jebbstuart on Dec 21, 2022 15:17:17 GMT
The football in the championship is competitive but not a lot of quality, why would you want to play there.
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Post by dirtclod on Dec 21, 2022 15:24:01 GMT
PL teams hoard players, they "Hoover up" anyone that remotely looks like they have talent, bench them or loan them out for fees.
If they do any good, then they can sell them and make even more profit.
It's the equivalent of a car company buying a fuel-system which allows the car to get 100 miles per gallon of gas, only to shelve it in order to keep it off the market.
There are people on here better versed at addressing this than me, but I think this is one area where PL distances itself from the "riff-raff" like us. (Which is an excellent song by ACDC btw)
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Dec 21, 2022 15:29:33 GMT
PL teams hoard players, they "Hoover up" anyone that remotely looks like they have talent, bench them or loan them out for fees. If they do any good, then they can sell them and make even more profit. It's the equivalent of a car company buying a fuel-system which allows the car to get 100 miles per gallon of gas, only to shelve it in order to keep it off the market. There are people on here better versed at addressing this than me, but I think this is one area where PL distances itself from the "riff-raff" like us. (Which is an excellent song by ACDC btw) Extra credit for referencing AC/DC. |
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Post by lordb on Dec 21, 2022 16:30:03 GMT
The football in the championship is competitive but not a lot of quality, why would you want to play there. In the past the salary difference between top flight and second tier wasn't that great and with just one sub, very little rotation players would regularly drop down to div 2 in order to play football Now the salary difference ensures that hardly any player forsake pl contract hence Sad |
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Post by spitthedog on Dec 21, 2022 16:58:07 GMT
The football in the championship is competitive but not a lot of quality, why would you want to play there. The point is that there are loads of players just getting splinters in the backsides every week and that's precisely why the standard is lower than it should be. Its chicken and egg. This combined with championship clubs now struggling to attract decent foreign players because of stricter restrictions. |
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Post by spitthedog on Dec 21, 2022 17:00:23 GMT
PL teams hoard players, they "Hoover up" anyone that remotely looks like they have talent, bench them or loan them out for fees. If they do any good, then they can sell them and make even more profit. It's the equivalent of a car company buying a fuel-system which allows the car to get 100 miles per gallon of gas, only to shelve it in order to keep it off the market. There are people on here better versed at addressing this than me, but I think this is one area where PL distances itself from the "riff-raff" like us. (Which is an excellent song by ACDC btw) and with the ability to field 5 subs and have 15 on the bench in the PL, that is definitely going to surely lower the amount of players going out on loan anyway, so the Championship is going tom drop even further. and that 300 on the bench is effectively another division of players between the PL and the Championship which makes our League 3rd Division quality (in old money!) in effect |
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Post by stokiesteve on Dec 21, 2022 19:16:31 GMT
The football in the championship is competitive but not a lot of quality, why would you want to play there. In the past the salary difference between top flight and second tier wasn't that great and with just one sub, very little rotation players would regularly drop down to div 2 in order to play football Now the salary difference ensures that hardly any player forsake pl contract hence Sad Agreed - the Championship needs to be better sold and games need to be shown with more razzmatazz by Sky et all so the gap might close very slightly - Match of the Day used to sometimes have a Division 2 or even 3 game on as first game back in the day - especially if there was a player who was showing promise etc |
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Post by spitthedog on Dec 21, 2022 21:12:22 GMT
In the past the salary difference between top flight and second tier wasn't that great and with just one sub, very little rotation players would regularly drop down to div 2 in order to play football Now the salary difference ensures that hardly any player forsake pl contract hence Sad Agreed - the Championship needs to be better sold and games need to be shown with more razzmatazz by Sky et all so the gap might close very slightly - Match of the Day used to sometimes have a Division 2 or even 3 game on as first game back in the day - especially if there was a player who was showing promise etc It'a amazing how the game has changed in this country and the balance of power. I watched an old The Big Match from 1974, the main match shown was Gillingham v Charlton from the old 3rd Division, followed Newcastle v WHU and Manchester City v Leeds from Division 1. |
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Post by spitthedog on Dec 21, 2022 22:34:24 GMT
In the past the salary difference between top flight and second tier wasn't that great and with just one sub, very little rotation players would regularly drop down to div 2 in order to play football Now the salary difference ensures that hardly any player forsake pl contract hence Sad Agreed - the Championship needs to be better sold and games need to be shown with more razzmatazz by Sky et all so the gap might close very slightly - Match of the Day used to sometimes have a Division 2 or even 3 game on as first game back in the day - especially if there was a player who was showing promise etc I think it will become more and more difficult to sell as the standard declines. It needs a massive rethink. |
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Post by dirtclod on Dec 22, 2022 14:46:54 GMT
One area needing "re-thunk:" Make Championship clubs' tat available on ALL the international retailer sites. A minor thing I know but I want to see Stoke getting $$$ from international merchandise sales. Oh I know - "there aren't enough fans to support it." First of all, that's not completely true and - how do you know if you don't make it available?
Right now - I can go on an American sports gear website and buy all the major sports teams uniforms as well as most of the Premier League team stuff. It's one of the reasons that I have to endure seeing Man shitty and Chelsea jerseys in Oklahoma. And the only reason for that is that the PL has done a good job of creating new Man Shitty, Manure, Bin-Dipping Fish-Gut eating Liverputians and Spuzz fans who are already used to buying gear to support whatever teams they like. (Like all of us do) One of the first things they did was make the gear available out there.
But the only way I can buy a Stoke jersey right now is from the club shop, (or a couple of UK retailers) which is no problem for me as I'm familiar with the club. But you're just not going to sell as much when it's limited to that.
Coming from likely the only person who owns a Stoke flag or jersey in my state - the game of "soccer" is getting played by all the kids, up through high school and college. It's on the uptick and even more so right now, just after a World Cup. My town has a semi-pro team. Tulsa, south of us has a 2nd tier professional team the Roughnecks. We have Sporting KC approx. 3 hours drive north of us. MLS has a long way to go, but its popularity is on the rise. I'm from Missouri originally and I played it in High School against St. Louis big schools who had internationals throughout their lineup. And this was back when velociraptors roamed the earth. (Back in the 80's)
The absolute best thing Stoke could do? Let's get our arses back up in the PL and STAY there - sign a 20-year lease on that sucker! Don't think I'll get many arguments about that on here.
But YES - first, the product needs retooled. FFP is one thing helping to increase the gap between PL and us. All I see is the PL getting richer, while the other leagues struggle financially and lose all of their decent players to "Loan-Warehouses" like Chelsea.
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Post by cvillestokie on Dec 23, 2022 2:37:40 GMT
Agreed - the Championship needs to be better sold and games need to be shown with more razzmatazz by Sky et all so the gap might close very slightly - Match of the Day used to sometimes have a Division 2 or even 3 game on as first game back in the day - especially if there was a player who was showing promise etc I think it will become more and more difficult to sell as the standard declines. It needs a massive rethink. It won’t happen, especially with so many American owners coming into the Premier League. At some point, they’ll try to petition the idea of stable leagues without the need for promotion/relegation. |
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Post by spitthedog on Dec 23, 2022 10:58:18 GMT
I think it will become more and more difficult to sell as the standard declines. It needs a massive rethink. It won’t happen, especially with so many American owners coming into the Premier League. At some point, they’ll try to petition the idea of stable leagues without the need for promotion/relegation. Yes, it's a question of who is going to do the re-think? I think we can expect a lowering of standards in this Division from next season though as PL teams have the capacity to utilise more match day players. The loan players available to championship clubs are going to be very young kids many of whom will not be suitable for this level anyway. |
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Post by iglugluk on Dec 23, 2022 11:36:51 GMT
Removing the shackles of the blatantly dysfunctional FFP rules would at least enable a few lucky clubs to attract better players, one would think.. and possibly be more prepared for potential promotion should it happen.
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Dec 26, 2022 13:03:56 GMT
Agreed - the Championship needs to be better sold and games need to be shown with more razzmatazz by Sky et all so the gap might close very slightly - Match of the Day used to sometimes have a Division 2 or even 3 game on as first game back in the day - especially if there was a player who was showing promise etc I think it will become more and more difficult to sell as the standard declines. It needs a massive rethink. I think it needs a T20 type innovation to make it more exciting and sell it that way. T20 is obviously not the highest form of cricket quality or the ultimate in displaying the level of ability of those on show but is without doubt the most entertaining. I'm nowhere near an original enough thinker to immagine what that might be but it's sorely needed at championship level. I truly believe only a drastic change in format will change the fortunes of teams outside the top tier. |
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Post by mickmillslovechild on Dec 26, 2022 13:16:42 GMT
One area needing "re-thunk:" Make Championship clubs' tat available on ALL the international retailer sites. A minor thing I know but I want to see Stoke getting $$$ from international merchandise sales. Oh I know - "there aren't enough fans to support it." First of all, that's not completely true and - how do you know if you don't make it available? Right now - I can go on an American sports gear website and buy all the major sports teams uniforms as well as most of the Premier League team stuff. It's one of the reasons that I have to endure seeing Man shitty and Chelsea jerseys in Oklahoma. And the only reason for that is that the PL has done a good job of creating new Man Shitty, Manure, Bin-Dipping Fish-Gut eating Liverputians and Spuzz fans who are already used to buying gear to support whatever teams they like. (Like all of us do) One of the first things they did was make the gear available out there. But the only way I can buy a Stoke jersey right now is from the club shop, (or a couple of UK retailers) which is no problem for me as I'm familiar with the club. But you're just not going to sell as much when it's limited to that. Coming from likely the only person who owns a Stoke flag or jersey in my state - the game of "soccer" is getting played by all the kids, up through high school and college. It's on the uptick and even more so right now, just after a World Cup. My town has a semi-pro team. Tulsa, south of us has a 2nd tier professional team the Roughnecks. We have Sporting KC approx. 3 hours drive north of us. MLS has a long way to go, but its popularity is on the rise. I'm from Missouri originally and I played it in High School against St. Louis big schools who had internationals throughout their lineup. And this was back when velociraptors roamed the earth. (Back in the 80's) The absolute best thing Stoke could do? Let's get our arses back up in the PL and STAY there - sign a 20-year lease on that sucker! Don't think I'll get many arguments about that on here. But YES - first, the product needs retooled. FFP is one thing helping to increase the gap between PL and us. All I see is the PL getting richer, while the other leagues struggle financially and lose all of their decent players to "Loan-Warehouses" like Chelsea. But it's up to those international sports gear websites to decide they want to stock it/have a customer base for it in the first place. It isn't anything for Stoke or any other Championship side to decide themselves. It's not like you can just go to American sports gear websites and tell them they have to sell Stoke shirts and job done. If you want sites to sell your merchandise you have to pitch it to them that's it worth their while to stock your gear, so the "how do ypu know if you don't make it available" argument is one you'd have to have with the owners of those sites and i'm pretty sure it's not an argument i think many retailers would just take a gamble on. Infernational sports websites will (like all businesses) do market research to see if there is a customer base before stocking gear to ensure they're not left with shitloads of stock they can't move on. They don't just guess at stuff like that and stick it on the site regardless to just see how it does. |
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Post by andystokey on Dec 26, 2022 13:20:00 GMT
It won’t happen, especially with so many American owners coming into the Premier League. At some point, they’ll try to petition the idea of stable leagues without the need for promotion/relegation. Yes, it's a question of who is going to do the re-think? I think we can expect a lowering of standards in this Division from next season though as PL teams have the capacity to utilise more match day players. The loan players available to championship clubs are going to be very young kids many of whom will not be suitable for this level anyway. A draft system like in the NFL for Premier League talent into the Championship could work. Reverse order like in the US lowest team gets first/best dibs. I'd also like to see the squad system enforced more to exactly 25 players regardless of age and nationality. The loan system as income generation needs to be binned too. Either players play enough "qualifying" games or they/clubs get penalised. We need to stop the hoarding of talent. |
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Post by cvillestokie on Dec 26, 2022 13:30:52 GMT
Yes, it's a question of who is going to do the re-think? I think we can expect a lowering of standards in this Division from next season though as PL teams have the capacity to utilise more match day players. The loan players available to championship clubs are going to be very young kids many of whom will not be suitable for this level anyway. A draft system like in the NFL for Premier League talent into the Championship could work. Reverse order like in the US lowest team gets first/best dibs. I'd also like to see the squad system enforced more to exactly 25 players regardless of age and nationality. The loan system as income generation needs to be binned too. Either players play enough "qualifying" games or they/clubs get penalised. We need to stop the hoarding of talent. The hoarding of talent certainly is one issue. Clubs would outright reject the idea of not being able to use their academy though. In my opinion, a lot of the Championship’s downturn has also come through the clubs being desperate to emulate those beyond them. Last time we were in this league, the Championship was more aggressive and faster than the Premier League. There were comparatively fewer teams that wanted to play the ball around the back all game. Each team would have a group of players that were willing to run through walls and then one or two that were exciting. Now, the Championship has an identity crisis. With very few exceptions, all teams pretty much want to play the same way. All teams are filled with players who aren’t good enough for the Premier League, but still try to play like them anyways. Instead of having a unique style, it’s now just a pale imitation of a superior product. |
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Post by bayernoatcake on Dec 26, 2022 14:42:37 GMT
A draft system like in the NFL for Premier League talent into the Championship could work. Reverse order like in the US lowest team gets first/best dibs. I'd also like to see the squad system enforced more to exactly 25 players regardless of age and nationality. The loan system as income generation needs to be binned too. Either players play enough "qualifying" games or they/clubs get penalised. We need to stop the hoarding of talent. The hoarding of talent certainly is one issue. Clubs would outright reject the idea of not being able to use their academy though. In my opinion, a lot of the Championship’s downturn has also come through the clubs being desperate to emulate those beyond them. Last time we were in this league, the Championship was more aggressive and faster than the Premier League. There were comparatively fewer teams that wanted to play the ball around the back all game. Each team would have a group of players that were willing to run through walls and then one or two that were exciting. Now, the Championship has an identity crisis. With very few exceptions, all teams pretty much want to play the same way. All teams are filled with players who aren’t good enough for the Premier League, but still try to play like them anyways. Instead of having a unique style, it’s now just a pale imitation of a superior product. Damn them for trying to play football 😂 |
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Post by cvillestokie on Dec 26, 2022 15:01:34 GMT
The hoarding of talent certainly is one issue. Clubs would outright reject the idea of not being able to use their academy though. In my opinion, a lot of the Championship’s downturn has also come through the clubs being desperate to emulate those beyond them. Last time we were in this league, the Championship was more aggressive and faster than the Premier League. There were comparatively fewer teams that wanted to play the ball around the back all game. Each team would have a group of players that were willing to run through walls and then one or two that were exciting. Now, the Championship has an identity crisis. With very few exceptions, all teams pretty much want to play the same way. All teams are filled with players who aren’t good enough for the Premier League, but still try to play like them anyways. Instead of having a unique style, it’s now just a pale imitation of a superior product. Damn them for trying to play football 😂 There’s plenty of ways to play football. It would be nice if the players could find a way to do it that was half entertaining, rather than mimic a style that they are incapable of replicating. |
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Post by dirtclod on Dec 26, 2022 18:18:45 GMT
One area needing "re-thunk:" Make Championship clubs' tat available on ALL the international retailer sites. A minor thing I know but I want to see Stoke getting $$$ from international merchandise sales. Oh I know - "there aren't enough fans to support it." First of all, that's not completely true and - how do you know if you don't make it available? Right now - I can go on an American sports gear website and buy all the major sports teams uniforms as well as most of the Premier League team stuff. It's one of the reasons that I have to endure seeing Man shitty and Chelsea jerseys in Oklahoma. And the only reason for that is that the PL has done a good job of creating new Man Shitty, Manure, Bin-Dipping Fish-Gut eating Liverputians and Spuzz fans who are already used to buying gear to support whatever teams they like. (Like all of us do) One of the first things they did was make the gear available out there. But the only way I can buy a Stoke jersey right now is from the club shop, (or a couple of UK retailers) which is no problem for me as I'm familiar with the club. But you're just not going to sell as much when it's limited to that. Coming from likely the only person who owns a Stoke flag or jersey in my state - the game of "soccer" is getting played by all the kids, up through high school and college. It's on the uptick and even more so right now, just after a World Cup. My town has a semi-pro team. Tulsa, south of us has a 2nd tier professional team the Roughnecks. We have Sporting KC approx. 3 hours drive north of us. MLS has a long way to go, but its popularity is on the rise. I'm from Missouri originally and I played it in High School against St. Louis big schools who had internationals throughout their lineup. And this was back when velociraptors roamed the earth. (Back in the 80's) The absolute best thing Stoke could do? Let's get our arses back up in the PL and STAY there - sign a 20-year lease on that sucker! Don't think I'll get many arguments about that on here. But YES - first, the product needs retooled. FFP is one thing helping to increase the gap between PL and us. All I see is the PL getting richer, while the other leagues struggle financially and lose all of their decent players to "Loan-Warehouses" like Chelsea. But it's up to those international sports gear websites to decide they want to stock it/have a customer base for it in the first place. It isn't anything for Stoke or any other Championship side to decide themselves. It's not like you can just go to American sports gear websites and tell them they have to sell Stoke shirts and job done. If you want sites to sell your merchandise you have to pitch it to them that's it worth their while to stock your gear, so the "how do ypu know if you don't make it available" argument is one you'd have to have with the owners of those sites and i'm pretty sure it's not an argument i think many retailers would just take a gamble on. Infernational sports websites will (like all businesses) do market research to see if there is a customer base before stocking gear to ensure they're not left with shitloads of stock they can't move on. They don't just guess at stuff like that and stick it on the site regardless to just see how it does. Yes, am sure that's why it is the "way it is." It'd have to be a "just in time" stocking level for sure to avoid piling up excess. I guess one thing that could fix it is that we just need to become "mired" in the habit of winning more. |
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Post by Vadiation_Ribe on Dec 27, 2022 10:26:31 GMT
Every team in the Championship hoovers up players within their means too.
But I agree about the stockpiling and issues lower down the tiers it causes.
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Post by upthefud on Dec 27, 2022 10:33:07 GMT
The top 6 or 7 are in a different galaxy
The bottom half is only slightly less turgid than the championship- with smart investment and there’s no reason a team going up can’t hold its own
The key is maintaining the spirit and momentum that took you up. There is a happy medium which lies closer to the Norwich approach than the Forest approach
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Dec 27, 2022 10:44:18 GMT
It needs a rule a bit similar to the US system:
* Each club can have x number of senior players registered in their squad for the season, where senior is considered either over 21 or over 23.
* Any senior players not registered in the squad are released on a free, with the club paying either the entire the remaining wages left on the contract or at least a hefty percentage. If you've given a shit player a long, expensive contract - tough shit, you're paying it.
* There is then a window for these free transfers to join new clubs - say a month or two after the transfer window closes.
Anything else is either relying on the non-existent good nature of the top clubs, or is tinkering with a system that pays players not to play.
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Post by independent on Dec 27, 2022 15:12:29 GMT
The big clubs will not allow any tinkering with FFP in the Premiership. It was brought in by the Top 4 to keep a closed shop after Abramovich crashed the party with Chelsea. Then Man. City managed to circumvent it, making Top 6. Now Newcastle are threatening to make it a Top 7. There are only 3 trophies available to win each year and a limited number of Champion League places to secure. Big clubs do not like the present odds.
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Post by FbrgVaStkFan on Dec 29, 2022 11:45:42 GMT
Agreed - the Championship ... I think it will become more and more difficult to sell as the standard declines. It needs a massive rethink. Maybe a reduction in the number of clubs at this level--the talent gets diluted. I've seen this over here. Leagues expand and the level of play seems to go down a notch. Less is more kind of thing. |
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Post by independent on Dec 29, 2022 12:07:00 GMT
The hoarding of talent certainly is one issue. Clubs would outright reject the idea of not being able to use their academy though. In my opinion, a lot of the Championship’s downturn has also come through the clubs being desperate to emulate those beyond them. Last time we were in this league, the Championship was more aggressive and faster than the Premier League. There were comparatively fewer teams that wanted to play the ball around the back all game. Each team would have a group of players that were willing to run through walls and then one or two that were exciting. Now, the Championship has an identity crisis. With very few exceptions, all teams pretty much want to play the same way. All teams are filled with players who aren’t good enough for the Premier League, but still try to play like them anyways. Instead of having a unique style, it’s now just a pale imitation of a superior product. Damn them for trying to play football 😂 If everyone was capable of playing like Man. City and did so, the football would quickly become very boring. If they try it without the ability to do so it will become unwatchable. Why do you think that English football is the top watched league in the world despite our inability to win a major tournament since 1966. Almost 120 failed attempts. We have also failed to dominate the Champions league despite having some of the richest clubs in the world. Mistakes and unpredictabilty add to the excitement and watchability. |
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Post by Squeekster on Dec 29, 2022 12:20:09 GMT
It's really quite simple, all teams name a 22 man squad and that's it, then you can use as many of your under 23's as you like, it makes no difference if you have 5 or 15 players on the bench you can still only use the same as the other team.
They were supposed to be clamping down on how players prem teams can loan out, I think a few seasons ago Chelsea had something like 20 plus out on loan getting in big loan fees to boot, we ourselves paid over £5 million on the Zuma deal for a season.
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Post by lordb on Dec 29, 2022 13:23:32 GMT
Damn them for trying to play football 😂 If everyone was capable of playing like Man. City and did so, the football would quickly become very boring. If they try it without the ability to do so it will become unwatchable. Why do you think that English football is the top watched league in the world despite our inability to win a major tournament since 1966. Almost 120 failed attempts. We have also failed to dominate the Champions league despite having some of the richest clubs in the world. Mistakes and unpredictabilty add to the excitement and watchability. 120? |
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Post by dirtygary69 on Dec 29, 2022 13:36:22 GMT
If that’s correct it’s ridiculous. Hundreds of players, most of them earning millions a year doing absolutely fuck all most weekends. 5 subs on the bench is more than enough and makes it more about tactics and clever changes. Having all these players on the bench and so many changes allowed means the best clubs will just chuck everyone at it without having to think about altering too much in terms of formations/tactics etc.
A rubbish change that again only benefits the better teams and creates further gaps between the haves and have nots whilst also increasing costs for fans with so many footballers who need paying.
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