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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Nov 12, 2022 18:55:55 GMT
I was and am a fan of changing the manager when that manager is clearly running on fumes and doing more harm than good. I’ve never said Neil has no responsibility. He’s underperforming and overall has been a huge disappointment so far. It’ll stop being O’Neill’s fault entirely when it starts looking more like Neil’s team, ie when he’s had a couple of windows. Bit harsh saying O'Neill was doing more harm than good imo when our best 3/4 players were all injured at the same time. It's the overall narrative on here that's changing which isn't right. There was plenty wanting O'Neill out cos our squad was good enough to be challenging for top 6,now he's gone,the general feeling is Neil needs 2 or more windows to sort out the problems,can't have it both ways. It’s not that simple though is it? Neil has his own style of play that’s different to MON’s and will want to build a side who can play it. MON was allowed to sign another boatload of players in the summer, managed to fail to win all but one of his games and left the squad looking more of a misshapen mess than it was before the summer.
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Post by LGH87 on Nov 12, 2022 18:57:16 GMT
You were a fan of changing the manager to move sideways.When does it stop being O'Neill's fault and Neil can take some reponsibility? I was and am a fan of changing the manager when that manager is clearly running on fumes and doing more harm than good. I’ve never said Neil has no responsibility. He’s underperforming and overall has been a huge disappointment so far. It’ll stop being O’Neill’s fault entirely when it starts looking more like Neil’s team, ie when he’s had a couple of windows. Matt Taylor, Bilic, Carrick and Corberan are all managing to get results with other people’s teams though. Why is it at Stoke, we never seem to have a new manager bounce or a manager that can work with other’s players. It’s always give him a few windows whilst blaming the previous incumbent.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Nov 12, 2022 19:00:09 GMT
I was and am a fan of changing the manager when that manager is clearly running on fumes and doing more harm than good. I’ve never said Neil has no responsibility. He’s underperforming and overall has been a huge disappointment so far. It’ll stop being O’Neill’s fault entirely when it starts looking more like Neil’s team, ie when he’s had a couple of windows. Matt Taylor, Bilic, Carrick and Corberan are all managing to get results with other people’s teams though. Why is it at Stoke, we never seem to have a new manager bounce or a manager that can work with other’s players. It’s always give him a few windows whilst blaming the previous incumbent. I agree, he should be doing better than he is. Every time I think he’s starting to get to grips with thing he picks another unfathomably strange team. I get that he’s a manager who picks teams based on the opposition but sometimes when you’re in the doldrums you need to build some momentum and I’m not convinced he’s giving us a chance to do that.
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Alex neil
Nov 12, 2022 19:00:14 GMT
via mobile
Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2022 19:00:14 GMT
Bit harsh saying O'Neill was doing more harm than good imo when our best 3/4 players were all injured at the same time. It's the overall narrative on here that's changing which isn't right. There was plenty wanting O'Neill out cos our squad was good enough to be challenging for top 6,now he's gone,the general feeling is Neil needs 2 or more windows to sort out the problems,can't have it both ways. It’s not that simple though is it? Neil has his own style of play that’s different to MON’s and will want to build a side who can play it. MON was allowed to sign another boatload of players in the summer, managed to fail to win all but one of his games and left the squad looking more of a misshapen mess than it was before the summer. ON had the worst injury list I can ever remember and didn't produce the garbage this fool is. Was bad at times , very bad but we've somehow managed to go downhill
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Post by stokerstayinup on Nov 12, 2022 19:01:14 GMT
Bit harsh saying O'Neill was doing more harm than good imo when our best 3/4 players were all injured at the same time. It's the overall narrative on here that's changing which isn't right. There was plenty wanting O'Neill out cos our squad was good enough to be challenging for top 6,now he's gone,the general feeling is Neil needs 2 or more windows to sort out the problems,can't have it both ways. It’s not that simple though is it? Neil has his own style of play that’s different to MON’s and will want to build a side who can play it. MON was allowed to sign another boatload of players in the summer, managed to fail to win all but one of his games and left the squad looking more of a misshapen mess than it was before the summer. Style? Not seen much evidence of that,ever likely Campbell's getting shit on here. A good manager can build a team from the squad available,it's worrying times.
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Alex neil
Nov 12, 2022 19:01:34 GMT
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Post by gawa on Nov 12, 2022 19:01:34 GMT
www.twtd.co.uk/league-tables/competition:championship/daterange/fromdate:2019-Nov-08/todate:2021-Mar-21/type:home-and-away/This is the league table for the period when MON was Stoke manager and AN was Preston manager. It's based from the date MON was appointed so like AN now, it's from mid season when he was working with another man's squad. Except Mon inherited a team bottom and AN was using a team he built. Stoke - 7th - 100 Points - 69 played Preston - 15th - 82 points - 69 played So I think if you're going to argue MON couldn't shape Stoke into a team. On the basis of that table, Alex Neil couldn't do so with Preston either. Sometimes we all need to take off our rose tinted glasses. And despite the above and Alex's poor start. Like with MON, I believe AN needs a bit more patience. For me a competent goalkeeper could turn this time 180. I feel our demise started last autumn/winter when Souttar got injured and Davies left. A new goalkeeper and a returning Souttar is your first 2 pieces to your spine. Few other astute signings and we can be back to winning ways. Why are you taking the dates from when they were appointed though? It doesn’t work like that. Managers have shelf lives. MON had more than reached his with us and the MON who did so well with us when he first arrived was long gone. Neil likewise at Preston, the manager who took them, with one of the smallest budgets and wage bills in the division, to the brink of the play offs twice had lost it by the time he left. Context is everything. I'm basing it on the period they were both managers of their respective clubs playing against the same teams in the same league. I think that's a very fair comparison. You need to step back a second and look at your posts. I fully agree Alex Neil works on a tight budget at Preston. But I also recognise MON came into a job where he had to sell key players and reduce the wage budget significantly from a team sitting bottom. Neither task is easy. I certainly wouldn't say Alex Neil had a difficult assignment at Preston. And you literally just said we never looked like a coherent squad under MON. Yet over a 20 month period when both managers were managing Stoke/Preston, MON accumulated 25% more points. So surely if AN was as good as you say at Preston then you can also recognise MON did a better job than you portray at Stoke.
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Post by clarkeda on Nov 12, 2022 19:02:58 GMT
Looking at todays performance he needs at least 8 starting players. I’d only keep Thompson, Tymon and Baker. On todays performance? You wouldn’t be keeping baker if that’s your criteria.
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Post by stokemark on Nov 12, 2022 19:03:47 GMT
I was and am a fan of changing the manager when that manager is clearly running on fumes and doing more harm than good. I’ve never said Neil has no responsibility. He’s underperforming and overall has been a huge disappointment so far. It’ll stop being O’Neill’s fault entirely when it starts looking more like Neil’s team, ie when he’s had a couple of windows. Matt Taylor, Bilic, Carrick and Corberan are all managing to get results with other people’s teams though. Why is it at Stoke, we never seem to have a new manager bounce or a manager that can work with other’s players. It’s always give him a few windows whilst blaming the previous incumbent. Matt Taylor ? Rotherham have lost ground on us since he was appointed
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Post by iglugluk on Nov 12, 2022 19:04:49 GMT
Bit harsh saying O'Neill was doing more harm than good imo when our best 3/4 players were all injured at the same time. It's the overall narrative on here that's changing which isn't right. There was plenty wanting O'Neill out cos our squad was good enough to be challenging for top 6,now he's gone,the general feeling is Neil needs 2 or more windows to sort out the problems,can't have it both ways. It’s not that simple though is it? Neil has his own style of play that’s different to MON’s and will want to build a side who can play it. MON was allowed to sign another boatload of players in the summer, managed to fail to win all but one of his games and left the squad looking more of a misshapen mess than it was before the summer. Absolutely right.. in addition I'd add that whether MoN had assembled a squad capable of a top 6 finish or not, it's definitely not the squad Neil would've put together. So who cares whether some on here ( myself included during my over optimistic moments ) thought it was better than it seems it really is? The point is O'Neill did nothing with it either and it was his team and it was clearly a poor one. Neil simply cannot be held responsible for that fact.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Nov 12, 2022 19:05:13 GMT
It’s not that simple though is it? Neil has his own style of play that’s different to MON’s and will want to build a side who can play it. MON was allowed to sign another boatload of players in the summer, managed to fail to win all but one of his games and left the squad looking more of a misshapen mess than it was before the summer. ON had the worst injury list I can ever remember and didn't produce the garbage this fool is. Was bad at times , very bad but we've somehow managed to go downhill He produced stuff that was every bit as bad, at least on the rare occasions we take the lead now we tend to hold onto it. He had more than enough even with the injuries to do better than he was doing, the problems were of his own making.
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Alex neil
Nov 12, 2022 19:05:56 GMT
via mobile
Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2022 19:05:56 GMT
ON had the worst injury list I can ever remember and didn't produce the garbage this fool is. Was bad at times , very bad but we've somehow managed to go downhill He produced stuff that was every bit as bad, at least on the rare occasions we take the lead now we tend to hold onto it. He had more than enough even with the injuries to do better than he was doing, the problems were of his own making. What is this taking the lead you speak of?
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Alex neil
Nov 12, 2022 19:06:18 GMT
via mobile
Post by LGH87 on Nov 12, 2022 19:06:18 GMT
Matt Taylor, Bilic, Carrick and Corberan are all managing to get results with other people’s teams though. Why is it at Stoke, we never seem to have a new manager bounce or a manager that can work with other’s players. It’s always give him a few windows whilst blaming the previous incumbent. Matt Taylor ? Rotherham have lost ground on us since he was appointed Which is to probably be expected considering it’s Rotherham and they’ve just come up but they beat us and have managed to take 4 points from back to back aways at Luton and Sheff Utd
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Nov 12, 2022 19:08:15 GMT
Why are you taking the dates from when they were appointed though? It doesn’t work like that. Managers have shelf lives. MON had more than reached his with us and the MON who did so well with us when he first arrived was long gone. Neil likewise at Preston, the manager who took them, with one of the smallest budgets and wage bills in the division, to the brink of the play offs twice had lost it by the time he left. Context is everything. I'm basing it on the period they were both managers of their respective clubs playing against the same teams in the same league. I think that's a very fair comparison. You need to step back a second and look at your posts. I fully agree Alex Neil works on a tight budget at Preston. But I also recognise MON came into a job where he had to sell key players and reduce the wage budget significantly from a team sitting bottom. Neither task is easy. I certainly wouldn't say Alex Neil had a difficult assignment at Preston. And you literally just said we never looked like a coherent squad under MON. Yet over a 20 month period when both managers were managing Stoke/Preston, MON accumulated 25% more points. So surely if AN was as good as you say at Preston then you can also recognise MON did a better job than you portray at Stoke. I don’t think I did say we never looked like a coherent squad under MON? When he arrived he turned us into one. I was talking about (generously) his last six months. The players he signed this season didn’t suit the system he was bent on playing, when that happens the gig is up. Again what I can’t get through to you is the shelf life thing. What MON did in 2019-20 wasn’t in any way relevant to what he was doing and how he was performing in 2022. Again, that filthy, disgusting word ‘context’.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Nov 12, 2022 19:09:20 GMT
He produced stuff that was every bit as bad, at least on the rare occasions we take the lead now we tend to hold onto it. He had more than enough even with the injuries to do better than he was doing, the problems were of his own making. What is this taking the lead you speak of? Happened four times under AN (which isn’t great) but not dropped a point when it’s happened. MON’s teams regularly scored first but were appalling at holding onto that lead.
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Post by spitthedog on Nov 12, 2022 19:10:04 GMT
Anyway Potter will be available soon.
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Post by nottsover60 on Nov 12, 2022 19:10:16 GMT
Interesting that Corberan and Carrick have hit the ground running at West Brom and Boro Meanwhile we continue as we were, same old, same old Fed up with it Both had far better squads. Middlesborough completely wiped the floor with us and I still don't know how we got a point from that game. Not saying I think Neil was a better choice but in our situation I'm not sure either manager would have taken on the Stoke job. Carrick in particular would have been mad to turn down Middlesborough. The more managers we sack the less appealing we become. Word must be getting round that it's an impossible job. If we can put in the odd performance like Tuesday I don't think we'll go down and if Souttar comes back from a personally successful world cup having played 3 or 4 matches then we could finish mid table.
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Alex neil
Nov 12, 2022 19:10:44 GMT
via mobile
Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2022 19:10:44 GMT
What is this taking the lead you speak of? Happened four times under AN (which isn’t great) but not dropped a point when it’s happened. MON’s teams regularly scored first but were appalling at holding onto that lead. He truly is his superior as the table shows...I take it back
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Nov 12, 2022 19:12:21 GMT
Happened four times under AN (which isn’t great) but not dropped a point when it’s happened. MON’s teams regularly scored first but were appalling at holding onto that lead. He truly is his superior as the table shows...I take it back That really isn’t the case I’m making. I’m not saying AN is doing well, I’m saying MON was shit.
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Alex neil
Nov 12, 2022 19:17:44 GMT
via mobile
Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2022 19:17:44 GMT
He truly is his superior as the table shows...I take it back That really isn’t the case I’m making. I’m not saying AN is doing well, I’m saying MON was shit. Not compared to this shite he wasn't. Taking us backwards and Sunderland managing fine without him. A shit manager would have this squad flirting with the bottom 3
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Post by independent on Nov 12, 2022 19:21:18 GMT
You were a fan of changing the manager to move sideways.When does it stop being O'Neill's fault and Neil can take some reponsibility? I was and am a fan of changing the manager when that manager is clearly running on fumes and doing more harm than good. I’ve never said Neil has no responsibility. He’s underperforming and overall has been a huge disappointment so far. It’ll stop being O’Neill’s fault entirely when it starts looking more like Neil’s team, ie when he’s had a couple of windows. I think you should have said "It will stop being partially MON's fault". MON is not preventing AN from getting these players to play better than they did for MON. Gayle and Delap may not be scoring, but we managed to average 1.25 goals a game last year without them. This year we are playing them and averaging a goal a game. But I have said on several occasions that the time to judge AN will be June 2023.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Nov 12, 2022 19:22:40 GMT
That really isn’t the case I’m making. I’m not saying AN is doing well, I’m saying MON was shit. Not compared to this shite he wasn't. Taking us backwards and Sunderland managing fine without him. A shit manager would have this squad flirting with the bottom 3 What was MON doing that was better, out of interest?
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Alex neil
Nov 12, 2022 19:24:02 GMT
via mobile
Post by blooter on Nov 12, 2022 19:24:02 GMT
He has a proven record of being a good manager. I'm hopeful he will get it right. At the minute he's trying to find the best way of polishing a turd.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Nov 12, 2022 19:24:40 GMT
I was and am a fan of changing the manager when that manager is clearly running on fumes and doing more harm than good. I’ve never said Neil has no responsibility. He’s underperforming and overall has been a huge disappointment so far. It’ll stop being O’Neill’s fault entirely when it starts looking more like Neil’s team, ie when he’s had a couple of windows. I think you should have said "It will stop being partially MON's fault". MON is not preventing AN from getting these players to play better than they did for MON. Gayle and Delap may not be scoring, but we managed to average 1.25 goals a game last year without them. This year we are playing them and averaging a goal a game. But I have said on several occasions that the time to judge AN will be June 2023. I agree, he’s not, and that’s on him. He is wrestling though with an unwieldy squad that despite being significantly reinforced still has plenty of gaps and looks muddled. Hopefully we can take the first steps to remedy that in January.
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Alex neil
Nov 12, 2022 19:27:54 GMT
via mobile
Post by Staffsoatcake on Nov 12, 2022 19:27:54 GMT
The best managers in the world can't turn a squad of turds into gold nuggets.
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Alex neil
Nov 12, 2022 19:28:27 GMT
via mobile
Post by prestwichpotter on Nov 12, 2022 19:28:27 GMT
What is this taking the lead you speak of? Happened four times under AN (which isn’t great) but not dropped a point when it’s happened. MON’s teams regularly scored first but were appalling at holding onto that lead. We took the lead 26 times last season and secured 52 points from those games…..
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Alex neil
Nov 12, 2022 19:28:53 GMT
via mobile
Post by terryconroysmagic on Nov 12, 2022 19:28:53 GMT
Bit harsh saying O'Neill was doing more harm than good imo when our best 3/4 players were all injured at the same time. It's the overall narrative on here that's changing which isn't right. There was plenty wanting O'Neill out cos our squad was good enough to be challenging for top 6,now he's gone,the general feeling is Neil needs 2 or more windows to sort out the problems,can't have it both ways. It’s not that simple though is it? Neil has his own style of play that’s different to MON’s and will want to build a side who can play it. MON was allowed to sign another boatload of players in the summer, managed to fail to win all but one of his games and left the squad looking more of a misshapen mess than it was before the summer. TA Do you not think though that the team should have some modicum of improvement even if only in attitude and application I’m really struggling to see improvement anywhere on the pitch, from tactics, endeavour, fighting spirit and technical ability. It’s not great at all
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Nov 12, 2022 19:30:09 GMT
It’s not that simple though is it? Neil has his own style of play that’s different to MON’s and will want to build a side who can play it. MON was allowed to sign another boatload of players in the summer, managed to fail to win all but one of his games and left the squad looking more of a misshapen mess than it was before the summer. TA Do you not think though that the team should have some modicum of improvement even if only in attitude and application I’m really struggling to see improvement anywhere on the pitch, from tactics, endeavour, fighting spirit and technical ability. It’s not great at all Yes I do think that mate, which is why on this very thread I’ve said several times that AN has been a disappointment so far and should be doing better.
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Alex neil
Nov 12, 2022 19:35:46 GMT
via mobile
Post by terryconroysmagic on Nov 12, 2022 19:35:46 GMT
TA Do you not think though that the team should have some modicum of improvement even if only in attitude and application I’m really struggling to see improvement anywhere on the pitch, from tactics, endeavour, fighting spirit and technical ability. It’s not great at all Yes I do think that mate, which is why on this very thread I’ve said several times that AN has been a disappointment so far and should be doing better. Cheers. Would you have targets or objectives you feel he should be achieving this season or do you think we should stick regardless until he’s had a window or two?
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Post by independent on Nov 12, 2022 19:36:48 GMT
The best managers in the world can't turn a squad of turds into gold nuggets. Do you really think that he has this squad performing to the best of their ability?. Do you think that he has improved individual player's performances?
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Post by kidcrewbob on Nov 12, 2022 19:43:08 GMT
It’s a crock of shit and I’m glad I’m not wasting 100 quid every fortnight any more - we keep having these mediocre to dreadful domestic journeymen managers and paying em crazy money to lay the foundations of the excuses required for the next incumbent………..
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