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Post by Gods on Oct 13, 2022 22:45:02 GMT
This from as recently as 2003 when we still right there... Hooligans ready for big kick-off
Football is bracing itself for its most violent season in years as many of Britain's worst hooligans lay plans to attack rival gangs. Police fear there will be regular outbreaks of trouble at or around games in the First Division, which kicks off on Saturday and this season will include 10 teams whose followers are notorious for causing mayhem. Senior officers believe the hostility between hardcore elements attached to clubs such as Cardiff City, Millwall, Stoke City, Nottingham Forest and West Ham United means clashes are inevitable. The Stoke Young Casuals, who bring up to 600 hooligans to some matches, have already laid plans to confront West Ham and Sunderland supporters, for example. I think everything changed in the new millennium, we are now thought of as being somewhere between 'can't be arsed' and 'warm and cuddly' !  |
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Post by dirtclod on Oct 14, 2022 4:53:20 GMT
I'll nominate Kevin Wimmer as poster-child for this.
Would be a rare pillock indeed capable of coughing up violence over a player like him.
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Post by scfc75 on Oct 14, 2022 6:35:19 GMT
Maybe everybody grew up
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Post by walrus on Oct 14, 2022 6:45:19 GMT
It’s less that Stoke alone changed, more that football culture in the UK changed.
I think Stoke still has a reputation as a club with a relatively unpleasant fanbase compared to most, it’s just that levels of general hooliganism in English football are nowhere near where they were in the past.
So instead of frequent violence against a backdrop of occasional violence across most clubs, it instead manifests as occasional very minor aggro against a backdrop of good behaviour across most clubs.
Twenty years ago it wasn’t unusual to feel a bit of menace at a football match. Now it almost never happens.
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Post by Timmy on Oct 14, 2022 6:55:17 GMT
The change in mentality of UK football can only be a good thing, who wants to go a game with their family and having the threat of getting your head caved in or eye taken out by someone.
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Post by str8outtahampton on Oct 14, 2022 7:24:46 GMT
As far back as I can remember, there was always an edge, and especially at away games. But whilst violence was routine, levels of violence were negligible as a proportion of the numbers attending. It was in general very easy to avoid it, and the culture and tabloid hysteria around it tended to exaggerate the actual threat.
There were exceptions but it was (and still is) mainly posturing and giving it the arms.
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Post by somersetstokie on Oct 14, 2022 8:10:32 GMT
GODS: "I think everything changed in the new millennium, we are now thought of as being somewhere between 'can't be arsed' and 'warm and cuddly' ! Maybe there's an idiotic hooligan element at Stoke that would like to see our former "reputation" as being up for a spot of football "Bovva" being revived and restored. I remember in the seventies, especially in the Wolves matches, and similarly against Liverpool and West Ham, that you would sometimes go to a match being virtually in fear of your life! It may have added a bit of excitement to the matchday experience but I wouldn't want those days to return. |
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Post by wuzza on Oct 14, 2022 8:18:02 GMT
Perhaps we now have a generation who prefer to do their ‘confronting’ the opposition from behind a keyboard rather than face to face and risking a thump on the nose ?
Must be for the better - those of us of a certain vintage will never forgot the air of menace that hung around a football ground that was nothing to do with the prospect of another defeat on the park.
The basic principle of disengaging brain when attending a game is still prevalent though 😕
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Post by mrrine on Oct 14, 2022 8:22:38 GMT
New stadium sucked the life out of everything.
Brief respite during prem years.
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Post by fishlovesoatcakes on Oct 14, 2022 8:31:23 GMT
Perhaps we now have a generation who prefer to do their ‘confronting’ the opposition from behind a keyboard rather than face to face and risking a thump on the nose ? Must be for the better - those of us of a certain vintage will never forgot the air of menace that hung around a football ground that was nothing to do with the prospect of another defeat on the park. The basic principle of disengaging brain when attending a game is still prevalent though 😕 Yep, lads in their 20's nowadays tend to swerve trouble. I don't think we've had a hooligan problem for around 15 years. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2022 8:32:58 GMT
New stadium sucked the life out of everything. Brief respite during prem years. This myth that the old ground was always bouncing, had a great atmosphere, crowds etc when in fact it was nothing of the sort. There was little life to suck out the last 20 plus years but so many remember things as better than they were |
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Post by terrorofturfmoor on Oct 14, 2022 8:53:09 GMT
I blame Kitson!!!
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Post by Squeekster on Oct 14, 2022 8:54:42 GMT
New stadium sucked the life out of everything. Brief respite during prem years. This myth that the old ground was always bouncing, had a great atmosphere, crowds etc when in fact it was nothing of the sort. There was little life to suck out the last 20 plus years but so many remember things as better than they were Night matches at the Vic always seemed to have a better atmosphere, although I was a lot younger then and it might of just seemed that way. |
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Post by Bera’s Beano on Oct 14, 2022 8:55:03 GMT
For the better definitely, what kind of a sad life do you have to lead to want to go to the football so that you can fight people over a game?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2022 9:05:19 GMT
This myth that the old ground was always bouncing, had a great atmosphere, crowds etc when in fact it was nothing of the sort. There was little life to suck out the last 20 plus years but so many remember things as better than they were Night matches at the Vic always seemed to have a better atmosphere, although I was a lot younger then and it might of just seemed that way. Possibly but to say we lost something that wasn't ever really there that some claim. I remember the Vic as mainly crowds of 13k and no atmosphere at all, obviously bigger games the numbers turned up same as anywhere. Can remember less than 10k quite a few times . |
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Post by lordb on Oct 14, 2022 9:09:23 GMT
Night matches at the Vic always seemed to have a better atmosphere, although I was a lot younger then and it might of just seemed that way. Possibly but to say we lost something that wasn't ever really there that some claim. I remember the Vic as mainly crowds of 13k and no atmosphere at all, obviously bigger games the numbers turned up same as anywhere. Can remember less than 10k quite a few times . Correct re the numbers however been at the Vic with bigger crowds and a dead atmosphere and there with under 10000 when the place was jumping |
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Post by Laughing Gravy on Oct 14, 2022 9:12:15 GMT
For the better definitely, what kind of a sad life do you have to lead to want to go to the football so that you can fight people over a game? I don’t think people were fighting over a game as such. It was people who just liked fighting. The game just dictated what tribe you were in and made it easy for those different tribes to meet up for a fight every Saturday. I think a number of factors have influenced it’s virtual elimination but I’d say it’s the heightened risk of being caught and convicted which is the main one. Back in the 70’s and 80’s unless you had your collar felt at the time there was a good chance you’d get away with a bit of a rumble. Especially if you could run fast. Now with the advance of technology especially cctv the chances of being spotted and banged up after the event are much, much greater. The advent of all seater stadia has also helped massively. |
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Oct 14, 2022 9:18:01 GMT
The decline really started when the Naughty 40 failed to find any wide hooligans but continued to play five at the back.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2022 9:21:57 GMT
Possibly but to say we lost something that wasn't ever really there that some claim. I remember the Vic as mainly crowds of 13k and no atmosphere at all, obviously bigger games the numbers turned up same as anywhere. Can remember less than 10k quite a few times . Correct re the numbers however been at the Vic with bigger crowds and a dead atmosphere and there with under 10000 when the place was jumping Don't really remember it jumping with low crowds myself ...in fact often was a few making noise for the purpose of a live Sunday afternoon game on TV . The last ever FA Cup game there was as bad an atmosphere can remember at any game ...you could hear the bench shouting instructions...or trying to. Wasn't all like that of course but not what some remember it as. Was not a wall of fans and a cauldron of noise. To claim we lost this when we moved is nonsense , was little to lose in the more recent times. |
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Post by durbanscircus on Oct 14, 2022 9:25:56 GMT
It isnt about hooliganism the way we recall it anymore. What I see, especially at away games is anti-social behaviour which if it isnt policed carefully can escalate.I dont think the younger lads/blokes in 30s go looking for trouble, its just that theyve had so much coke and beer they dont care if it finds them. Behaviour on trains and around vulnerable people can be embarrasing and some times dangerous for the older folk, especially if we have scored and there is a rampage for the front.
So its different- but as for the rep, as has been noted on here the Lancs and GM police hate us and really dont like expending the resources monitoring a large group of our fans when they have to cross large parts of the North West of England for a game. Make your own mnd up about what that means
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Post by cvillestokie on Oct 14, 2022 9:34:47 GMT
For the better definitely, what kind of a sad life do you have to lead to want to go to the football so that you can fight people over a game? I don’t think people were fighting over a game as such. It was people who just liked fighting. The game just dictated what tribe you were in and made it easy for those different tribes to meet up for a fight every Saturday. I think a number of factors have influenced it’s virtual elimination but I’d say it’s the heightened risk of being caught and convicted which is the main one. Back in the 70’s and 80’s unless you had your collar felt at the time there was a good chance you’d get away with a bit of a rumble. Especially if you could run fast. Now with the advance of technology especially cctv the chances of being spotted and banged up after the event are much, much greater. The advent of all seater stadia has also helped massively. Just liked fighting, yet likely wouldn’t get in a ring. Just liked fighting, but often ended up beating the crap out of much smaller groups or individuals who had no chance of winning |
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Post by Laughing Gravy on Oct 14, 2022 10:04:50 GMT
I don’t think people were fighting over a game as such. It was people who just liked fighting. The game just dictated what tribe you were in and made it easy for those different tribes to meet up for a fight every Saturday. I think a number of factors have influenced it’s virtual elimination but I’d say it’s the heightened risk of being caught and convicted which is the main one. Back in the 70’s and 80’s unless you had your collar felt at the time there was a good chance you’d get away with a bit of a rumble. Especially if you could run fast. Now with the advance of technology especially cctv the chances of being spotted and banged up after the event are much, much greater. The advent of all seater stadia has also helped massively. Just liked fighting, yet likely wouldn’t get in a ring. Just liked fighting, but often ended up beating the crap out of much smaller groups or individuals who had no chance of winning No you’re right. I wasn’t in anyway trying to justify it. I was simply pointing out that they weren’t fighting over the honour of Stoke City like some chivalric knights as some of the books on the subject would have you believe. They were just fighting and it simply happened that the most convenient place for them to do that was at the football. If you read some of the literature on this these men/boys they were violent away from the footy. Football just gave them the focus to ‘justify’ and in their own heads ‘legitimise’ inflicting this violence on other ‘tribes’. It was just gang violence. The Sharks and The Jets. ICF and the N40. |
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Post by loosestools on Oct 14, 2022 10:12:13 GMT
And may those days never return.
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Post by misterj on Oct 14, 2022 11:37:36 GMT
Society has changed, people have changed, I think seating has helped bring down hooliganism too, sadly it took away 50% of the atmosphere too. Remember sitting with kids in the (old) Victoria Ground and a guy kept shouting at Carl Saunders using the N word, I asked a steward what he was going to do about it - “nothing” ….. I don’t think we’d have that situation now thankfully. Also I hear the F word and C word much less now at the match, come on - that’s not a bad thing surely! One incident shows bit of a way to go …… kid sitting with his Dad (?) aged about ten, the Delilah song ….. kid AND dad joined in with the line “I put my d….. in her hand” …… wrong on so many levels! 🤣🤣
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Post by northstaffycher on Oct 14, 2022 12:26:53 GMT
As far back as I can remember, there was always an edge, and especially at away games. But whilst violence was routine, levels of violence were negligible as a proportion of the numbers attending. It was in general very easy to avoid it, and the culture and tabloid hysteria around it tended to exaggerate the actual threat. There were exceptions but it was (and still is) mainly posturing and giving it the arms. Completely agree. Even in the eighties when there was aggro at almost every game a lot of the "contact" with the "enemy" was brief (frenetic but brief) with the odd exception when plod wasn't around. There was a hell of a lot of marching around city centres (dragging a leg) and jumping up and down. This information was provided by a friend btw. The friend said there was a lot more fun in those days, a lot less seriousness and the electric atmosphere that the mere chance of aggro imbued is much missed. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2022 12:49:16 GMT
Maybe the reason so many can't fit on the concourses these days is they no longer participate in thing posturing and bouncing up and down on the spot any more which was their weekly form of exercise.was like a Mr Motivator work out regime. You could burn those extra calories abroad by throwing a plastic chair at a German before more bouncing up and down.
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Post by thevoid on Oct 14, 2022 13:10:49 GMT
Shadowboxing in front of a line of cops after five pints and a bit of beak isn't hooliganism
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Post by misterj on Oct 14, 2022 13:47:25 GMT
Yes there was a lot of ‘handbags at dawn’ and a lot of the main players would go mouthing off & jumping up and down at the opposition knowing that at any moment a cop, or Alsatian or police horse was going to step in and segregate, but on occasion - I can bet it was for police amusement - they didn’t step in and you could see the body language of the aggressor suddenly change, “oh I’d better get back over there with the Stoke fans”
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Post by PotterLog on Oct 14, 2022 14:48:26 GMT
The decline really started when the Naughty 40 failed to find any wide hooligans but continued to play five at the back. There was no shortage of width on the hoolies I used to know |
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Post by Laughing Gravy on Oct 14, 2022 15:16:01 GMT
Yes there was a lot of ‘handbags at dawn’ and a lot of the main players would go mouthing off & jumping up and down at the opposition knowing that at any moment a cop, or Alsatian or police horse was going to step in and segregate, but on occasion - I can bet it was for police amusement - they didn’t step in and you could see the body language of the aggressor suddenly change, “oh I’d better get back over there with the Stoke fans” Hold me back, hold me back. |
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