|
Post by davejohnno1 on Sept 5, 2022 12:30:34 GMT
Not much to disagree with there to be fair apart from one glaring error...Neil has adopted a back 3 in both of his games in charge. Eh ? Versus Swansea he went with back four . Wilmot Flint Taylor Fox . You could argue a back 3 when he substituted Taylor but that was around 70 minutes Brown was deployed at LWB, Wilmott on the right. Fox got pelters, wrongly, for not being close enough to stop several crosses but it was because he was playing as the left sided centre half. Because he's crap and old, he simply couldn't make up the distance from his starting position into a conventional left back area to stop the crosses coming over.
|
|
|
Post by canadianmoose on Sept 5, 2022 12:48:56 GMT
For over 3 years you can see that the fitness levels of our squad was not where it needed to be. Most other teams were able to out run and out work us.
AN is being as harsh about it in public as he can dare to be. In private, I can only imagine his true thoughts. He must be livid.
When these guys are fully prepped fitness wise, I think it will make a big difference to the performance levels we see.
Having said that, I’m sick to the back teeth of 5-3-2, 3-5-2 or whatever else it’s called. I hope it dies a quick death because the term “wing back” will forever cause me nightmares.
|
|
|
Post by spitthedog on Sept 5, 2022 12:54:07 GMT
We have to give Alex Neil time to get it right. His teams were notoriously slow starters at Preston before travelling through the gears. He deserves this time to settle in and find out what his best side is, as worrying as the second half was today. It’s also blatantly clear that the team is not fit enough at the moment and that isn’t something that can be fixed overnight. It's also worth noting that if we hadn't have hand gifted them 2 ridiculous goals away we would have drawn or possibly won that game despite a poor performance.
|
|
|
Post by onionman on Sept 5, 2022 12:55:32 GMT
Unfit, incompetent at set pieces, not drilled to play any system whatsoever and as individuals mostly unable to complete simple tasks like passing and controlling the ball. What on earth were they actually doing at training? Serious question as I genuinely can’t see the evidence of any training whatsoever. Was the Rory Delap training video teaser actually indicative of the general nature of the sessions under O'Neill? Given our previous manager's recent past before he was hired, it does make me wonder if National team management had caused him to forget the basics such as fitness training? I'm not sure how our abysmal throw-ins over his entire reign can be understood though, it has to be said! Who knows. It feels like an easy stick to beat the past manager with, but I genuinely can't figure out what they must have been doing!
|
|
|
Post by iglugluk on Sept 5, 2022 12:57:57 GMT
Was the Rory Delap training video teaser actually indicative of the general nature of the sessions under O'Neill? Given our previous manager's recent past before he was hired, it does make me wonder if National team management had caused him to forget the basics such as fitness training? I'm not sure how our abysmal throw-ins over his entire reign can be understood though, it has to be said! Who knows. It feels like an easy stick to beat the past manager with, but I genuinely can't figure out what they must have been doing! After yesterday's game it sounds suspiciously like AN might be asking the very same question.
|
|
|
Post by ceejays on Sept 5, 2022 15:47:46 GMT
We actually played 4-1-2-3. With Baker in a deep role in front of the back four. In fact Baker more to my dismay sometimes dropped into a back 5 making the system 5-2-3 . Clucas and Thompson played in advanced roles in front of Baker . I assume to augment the pressing but their lack of fitness told cuz after 25 minutes they were running on empty . Had we been playing with wingbacks then Gayle would have been up top with Delap. He was deployed on the right . That I still can’t work out the tactical reason as Brown has to my knowledge never played on the left before Seansea ( could b wrong on that ? ) . Why we played our best player as a defensive shield to the back four for 70 minutes was difficult to understand.
|
|
|
Post by davejohnno1 on Sept 5, 2022 16:16:14 GMT
We actually played 4-1-2-3. With Baker in a deep role in front of the back four. In fact Baker more to my dismay sometimes dropped into a back 5 making the system 5-2-3 . Clucas and Thompson played in advanced roles in front of Baker . I assume to augment the pressing but their lack of fitness told cuz after 25 minutes they were running on empty . Had we been playing with wingbacks then Gayle would have been up top with Delap. He was deployed on the right . That I still can’t work out the tactical reason as Brown has to my knowledge never played on the left before Seansea ( could b wrong on that ? ) . Why we played our best player as a defensive shield to the back four for 70 minutes was difficult to understand. I suggest you watch the game again. Look how they lined up at kick off. 3 centre halves, Wilmott and Brown high on right and left, Baker as CDM, Clucas and Thompson in right and left no8 roles with Delap and Gayle up front. Get a clip of the warm up if you can. In the specific position part, the drills were with 3 centre halves. At Blackburn, the drills were in the shape of a Back 4. It actually looked, at times, that he tried to create a fluid in possession and out of possession system but as we all know our players are thick as two short planks in the main so they just looked like a confused mess. The fact that you, me and several others (on here and twitter) couldn't see what formation we were playing or decide which formation we were playing showed what a dogs dinner Swansea was. Following hot it's heels was yesterdays debacle. Think it's fair to say Neil hasn't really simplified things in the way he said he intended to do during his first interview. If anything, he's complicated matters even more.
|
|
|
Post by ceejays on Sept 5, 2022 16:43:28 GMT
I know what I saw and Gayle did NOT play up top . Take it from there
|
|
|
Post by Trouserdog on Sept 5, 2022 16:58:25 GMT
It's always a worrying sign when you look at the team sheet pre-match and can't work out what the system is supposed to be. Once it dawned on me that we were going with wingbacks (even the words make me shudder) and that those wingbacks were Jacob Brown and Tariq Fosu (but on his wrong side, ladies and gentlemen) I knew what kind of shit we were in for. I get it. All the modern managers like wingbacks. A 4-2-3-1 is so 2017, and all the hipsters on Twitter want to see 3-4-1-2 and 3-4-3, but if you haven't got the players for it, the side looks so devoid of attacking spark that you might as well give up before you've even kicked off. The system is absolutely doomed to fail without the proper personnel, and from now on any Stoke City manager who even thinks about playing wingbacks pre-game should immediately be injected in the arse with a general anasthetic, his comatose body bound and gagged, then locked in a cupboard until the match is over. I know the 4-3-3 we played in the last two games was by no means perfect, but playing that formation with a high press, we looked like we at least had a plan. Today, for some inexplicable reason, was a deliberate return to not having a plan. It was a return to pedestrian passing, no movement off the ball, possession for possession's sake- in other words, the same dark cul-de-sac that Michael O'Neil has spent the last two years groping around in, and to be honest, Alex Neil needs to get himself the fuck out of there immediately because I for one can't take 6 months of watching anyone work out what any of us could tell him in 6 seconds. Systems are only half the story of course, because the bungling gaggle of half-wits we've assembled as a squad could probably make any system look bad. A goalkeeper charging out of his box like like a man fleeing from a scary ghost only he can see; strikers who pin defenders into a corner and then proceed to shove them in the back; centre-backs who lunge into challenges with their eyes closed, unable to connect with a bouncing ball, but perfectly capable of connecting with a man in their own box; midfielders and strikers who never seem to break into anything more than a jog...it's just fucking pathetic. Alex Neil might well have looked at the nice cosy set-up here and had a lovely chat at the shiny bet365 offices with Kind Jon and Lovable Uncle Peter, and he's probably thought, wow, what a sound club this is- I get to just manage things my way, no-one's interfering or telling me what to do, and they're going to double my pay as well. No brainer- sign me up for this! Ho, ho...but wait until you see what's in the dressing room Alex! Wait until you get them out on the training pitch and then it'll dawn on you. You've inherited a dog's dinner. Not a decent quality one either like Pedigree Chum- more like a bucket of offal, gristle and other dogs' sick. Now come on Alex, get moulding it into a team. Not much to disagree with there to be fair apart from one glaring error...Neil has adopted a back 3 in both of his games in charge. We were 4-3-3 against Swansea. Wilmot was just playing as an attacking full back.
|
|
|
Post by Trouserdog on Sept 5, 2022 17:00:38 GMT
We actually played 4-1-2-3. With Baker in a deep role in front of the back four. In fact Baker more to my dismay sometimes dropped into a back 5 making the system 5-2-3 . Clucas and Thompson played in advanced roles in front of Baker . I assume to augment the pressing but their lack of fitness told cuz after 25 minutes they were running on empty . Had we been playing with wingbacks then Gayle would have been up top with Delap. He was deployed on the right . That I still can’t work out the tactical reason as Brown has to my knowledge never played on the left before Seansea ( could b wrong on that ? ) . Why we played our best player as a defensive shield to the back four for 70 minutes was difficult to understand. I suggest you watch the game again. Look how they lined up at kick off. 3 centre halves, Wilmott and Brown high on right and left, Baker as CDM, Clucas and Thompson in right and left no8 roles with Delap and Gayle up front. Get a clip of the warm up if you can. In the specific position part, the drills were with 3 centre halves. At Blackburn, the drills were in the shape of a Back 4. It actually looked, at times, that he tried to create a fluid in possession and out of possession system but as we all know our players are thick as two short planks in the main so they just looked like a confused mess. The fact that you, me and several others (on here and twitter) couldn't see what formation we were playing or decide which formation we were playing showed what a dogs dinner Swansea was. Following hot it's heels was yesterdays debacle. Think it's fair to say Neil hasn't really simplified things in the way he said he intended to do during his first interview. If anything, he's complicated matters even more. Sorry Dave, not having that at all. Brown was far too advanced in that game to be playing as a wing-back.
|
|
|
Post by thehartshillbadger on Sept 5, 2022 17:15:27 GMT
We actually played 4-1-2-3. With Baker in a deep role in front of the back four. In fact Baker more to my dismay sometimes dropped into a back 5 making the system 5-2-3 . Clucas and Thompson played in advanced roles in front of Baker . I assume to augment the pressing but their lack of fitness told cuz after 25 minutes they were running on empty . Had we been playing with wingbacks then Gayle would have been up top with Delap. He was deployed on the right . That I still can’t work out the tactical reason as Brown has to my knowledge never played on the left before Seansea ( could b wrong on that ? ) . Why we played our best player as a defensive shield to the back four for 70 minutes was difficult to understand. I suggest you watch the game again. Look how they lined up at kick off. 3 centre halves, Wilmott and Brown high on right and left, Baker as CDM, Clucas and Thompson in right and left no8 roles with Delap and Gayle up front. Get a clip of the warm up if you can. In the specific position part, the drills were with 3 centre halves. At Blackburn, the drills were in the shape of a Back 4. It actually looked, at times, that he tried to create a fluid in possession and out of possession system but as we all know our players are thick as two short planks in the main so they just looked like a confused mess. The fact that you, me and several others (on here and twitter) couldn't see what formation we were playing or decide which formation we were playing showed what a dogs dinner Swansea was. Following hot it's heels was yesterdays debacle. Think it's fair to say Neil hasn't really simplified things in the way he said he intended to do during his first interview. If anything, he's complicated matters even more. You make the point about not being able to tell what formation we were playing and I completely agree. To me it looked like we were playing with one centre half (Flint), right back and left back (Wilmot and Fox) and some weird wing back incarnation (Brown and Fosu) neither of which tracked back. We looked very very open when they were in possession. If I were Neil I’d begin by making the whole team far more compact before we move on to an attempt at more expansive football. We were all over the place and every single player looked uncomfortable with what they were being asked to do. I’m will to give the benefit of doubt to the manager as he’s probably trialling a few things but I certainly don’t want to ever see that kind of team shape ever again.
|
|
|
Post by dirtclod on Sept 5, 2022 18:42:10 GMT
Agree that it appeared to me that some of these guys were confused during the match on where to be. Asking some of them to both run AND think aren't going to happen - that has to be overcome with coaching. We do need to increase our "compactness" immediately and get these guys in shape to cut back on oxygen-deprivation addling their brains.
Think we all agree that "plan" we tried to use (from MON's file cabinet) can be hurled in the wheelie-bin forever. Time for Plans C through Z.
|
|
|
Post by peterthornesboots on Sept 5, 2022 21:24:53 GMT
It is all a little concerning so far, although clearly not everything is on AN's shoulders at the moment.
- No real "new manager bounce" thus far. - AN is clearly unhappy with the fitness/conditioning of our players. - AN is experimenting and trying to find the right shape/personnel but was way off with his tactics on Sunday. - In general, we don't seen to have the players to adequately suit any system comfortably at the moment. - People keep saying we have a good squad. Do we? Because we certainly haven't shown much do far this season and we are 9 games in.
AN needs time and he is having to work with the limited/unbalanced squad that he inherited. Hopefully the return of Powell, Tymon, Souttar et al will help somewhat.
However, we need to start picking up points and building momentum sooner rather than later. The league table doesn't make for good reading right now and this division can become something of a slog if you find yourself in and around those relegation places.
|
|