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Post by bayernoatcake on Jul 26, 2022 10:30:19 GMT
Absolutely ridiculous criticism. Itโs mental. MON can be criticised on a number of levels. Chiefly our apparent lack of an obvious pattern of play or style. But to suggest heโs mismanaged our younger players is crazy. I canโt recall any previous manager placing as much faith in the younger players. Or dig them out as much. And then actually not use them as much as he should do. He's used them because he has had to which is great. But I still think it's left a lot to be desired with how much he should have actually used them. Like using THB and JPB over own players last season. Total and utter waste.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Jul 26, 2022 10:30:38 GMT
I'm certainly not writing bayern's opinion off, but there is a certain amount of hyperbole around some of the youngsters and how they are ready for to be Championship regulars or destined for the Premier League is. Verlinden is a casing point, and that's not a criticism by the way as many people thought the same Even to a layman like me it was obvious that Collins was destined to be a top player, physically at 17, the way he played with the ball at his feet, the way he organised older pros around him it was obvious. Souttar was another who it was obvious quite quickly had most of the attributes to have a very good career in the game. Do people honestly look at Forrester and think the same, what are his outstanding attributes? I'm not knocking him by the way I can see he has some potential and If he proves the club wrong and goes on to bigger and better things good luck to the lad, it happens all the time and much better managers than MON have released players and it's come back to bite them. And as much as they our rivals Vale are a decent club for him to take his career to the next level......... I disagree re Souttar. He needed the loans badly. He's a totally different player now to the one even 2.5 years ago. He's come on so much and learned so much. And is imo a real example of what hard work and dedication can do to take an average defender to a higher level. For example when he was at Ross County was it? He couldn't win headers, he looked awful in the air. It seems daft to say but he was. Utterly useless, would misjudge them and jump under the ball and would flick it on more than not. He's come on so much. He always looked like he should make it at a Championship level but nothing more. Now that ceiling has been blown out the water with his dedication and ability to learn. Souttar was 19 when he played for Ross County, Forrester is already 21.............
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jul 26, 2022 10:30:40 GMT
I said best young defender. FFS So does that include Soutarr? I wouldn't class Souttar as young no.
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Post by foxysgloves on Jul 26, 2022 10:32:39 GMT
So does that include Soutarr? I wouldn't class Souttar as young no. ๐๐๐ 23? Heโs ancient.
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Post by bunnyscfc on Jul 26, 2022 10:33:39 GMT
Souttar may disagree, along with DWP, along with Sparrow, along with Taylor, along with Bursik, along with Campbell. If Forrester feels there is too much competition ahead of him and has turned down a contract then a move benefits all parties as long we have clauses in the contract. Sparrow has played one professional game for us and been behind Duhaney in the pecking order whoโs possibly the most nothing football player Iโve seen play for Stoke. Bursik was dropped for perennial League One back up goalkeeper Jack Bonham. Taylor has played a single game for us and Iโd imagine will sit behind 33 year old Aden Flint in the squad. DWP won player of the month then was dropped from the squad. Campbell has stagnated. Tom Edwards was bombed. And now weโre shipping Forrester off to the Vale in favour of the aforementioned Flint. Hardly a roaring success bar Souttar is it? Yes MON gives them a chance. But the above post shows that he's not averse to bombing them for whatever reason, too. I keep coming back to the question - no matter how good Forester is, was he worse than Chester? We all know the answer to that, so why not give the younger player those opportunities? And why offer him a new contract with glowing praise?
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jul 26, 2022 10:33:55 GMT
I disagree re Souttar. He needed the loans badly. He's a totally different player now to the one even 2.5 years ago. He's come on so much and learned so much. And is imo a real example of what hard work and dedication can do to take an average defender to a higher level. For example when he was at Ross County was it? He couldn't win headers, he looked awful in the air. It seems daft to say but he was. Utterly useless, would misjudge them and jump under the ball and would flick it on more than not. He's come on so much. He always looked like he should make it at a Championship level but nothing more. Now that ceiling has been blown out the water with his dedication and ability to learn. Souttar was 19 when he played for Ross County, Forester is already 21............. What's that got to do with anything? It was about your comment about Souttar always looking the part. He didn't. Far from it too. He's worked remarkably hard to fix the mistakes in his game and has kicked on massively since he was 21. There's an intelligence with him I like. He learns and that's something a lot of players don't have. It's also why I don't think he's top 6 PL material. But he does learn and if he carried on learning then there could be a chance. Intelligent defenders are joyous and he's one.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jul 26, 2022 10:34:42 GMT
I wouldn't class Souttar as young no. ๐๐๐ 23? Heโs ancient. Football wise you should be pretty much established by then really. We've had 23 year olds winning yound player of the year and it was a joke.
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Post by warringtonstokie on Jul 26, 2022 10:36:09 GMT
Sparrow has played one professional game for us and been behind Duhaney in the pecking order whoโs possibly the most nothing football player Iโve seen play for Stoke. Bursik was dropped for perennial League One back up goalkeeper Jack Bonham. Taylor has played a single game for us and Iโd imagine will sit behind 33 year old Aden Flint in the squad. DWP won player of the month then was dropped from the squad. Campbell has stagnated. Tom Edwards was bombed. And now weโre shipping Forrester off to the Vale in favour of the aforementioned Flint. Hardly a roaring success bar Souttar is it? Yes MON gives them a chance. But the above post shows that he's not averse to bombing them for whatever reason, too. I keep coming back to the question - no matter how good Forester is, was he worse than Chester? We all know the answer to that, so why not give the younger player those opportunities? And why offer him a new contract with glowing praise? No, of course heโs worse than Chester and Iโd imagine heโs better than Flint right now which is the point Iโm trying to get at really. He promotes them to the first team squad, great. But theyโre not REALLY given a proper chance, are they? Bursik, Edwards, Forrester, TOB, DWP weirdly being dropped etc. Itโs not designed to be an attack on MON but there is a pattern here.
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Post by foxysgloves on Jul 26, 2022 10:36:10 GMT
Souttar was 19 when he played for Ross County, Forester is already 21............. What's that got to do with anything? It was about your comment about Souttar always looking the part. He didn't. Far from it too. He's worked remarkably hard to fix the mistakes in his game and has kicked on massively since he was 21. There's an intelligence with him I like. He learns and that's something a lot of players don't have. It's also why I don't think he's top 6 PL material. But he does learn and if he carried on learning then there could be a chance. Intelligent defenders are joyous and he's one. Does MON get any credit for this miraculous transformation from hopeless to fantastic? Or was Harryโs development all his own work?
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Post by musik on Jul 26, 2022 10:36:16 GMT
There's no room for all these defenders. Some have to go ...
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jul 26, 2022 10:37:13 GMT
What's that got to do with anything? It was about your comment about Souttar always looking the part. He didn't. Far from it too. He's worked remarkably hard to fix the mistakes in his game and has kicked on massively since he was 21. There's an intelligence with him I like. He learns and that's something a lot of players don't have. It's also why I don't think he's top 6 PL material. But he does learn and if he carried on learning then there could be a chance. Intelligent defenders are joyous and he's one. Does MON get any credit for this miraculous transformation from hopeless to fantastic? Or was Harryโs development all his own work? I think it mainly took place under Joey Barton.
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Post by foxysgloves on Jul 26, 2022 10:38:11 GMT
Does MON get any credit for this miraculous transformation from hopeless to fantastic? Or was Harryโs development all his own work? I think it mainly took place under Joey Barton. ๐๐๐ MON has had no positive influence on Harryโs career or development? Priceless.
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Post by werrington on Jul 26, 2022 10:38:32 GMT
Whenโs the last time we sold a player to the Vale? John Lumsdon 1978 I thought it was Maguire or Peter Griffiths?
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Post by prestwichpotter on Jul 26, 2022 10:39:11 GMT
Souttar was 19 when he played for Ross County, Forester is already 21............. What's that got to do with anything? It was about your comment about Souttar always looking the part. He didn't. Far from it too. He's worked remarkably hard to fix the mistakes in his game and has kicked on massively since he was 21. There's an intelligence with him I like. He learns and that's something a lot of players don't have. It's also why I don't think he's top 6 PL material. But he does learn and if he carried on learning then there could be a chance. Intelligent defenders are joyous and he's one. Souttar always looked like he had the attributes to become a first team regular and kick on as far as I was concerned, I said that from the off. I was concerned by his lack of pace slightly but nothing else. So what stands out to you with Forrester? Everything I've seen so far screams League One/League Two career, and there's nothing wrong with that and if he proves me wrong good luck to the lad.......
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borges
Academy Starlet
Posts: 105
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Post by borges on Jul 26, 2022 10:39:20 GMT
Souttar may disagree, along with DWP, along with Sparrow, along with Taylor, along with Bursik, along with Campbell. If Forrester feels there is too much competition ahead of him and has turned down a contract then a move benefits all parties as long we have clauses in the contract. Sparrow has played one professional game for us and been behind Duhaney in the pecking order whoโs possibly the most nothing football player Iโve seen play for Stoke. Bursik was dropped for perennial League One back up goalkeeper Jack Bonham. Taylor has played a single game for us and Iโd imagine will sit behind 33 year old Aden Flint in the squad. DWP won player of the month then was dropped from the squad. Campbell has stagnated. Tom Edwards was bombed. And now weโre shipping Forrester off to the Vale in favour of the aforementioned Flint. Hardly a roaring success bar Souttar is it? I'm not particularly wowed by Bonham as a keeper, but starting 2017 until his move to us he played pretty much every game for the clubs he was at. Definitely not a 'back up' by any stretch. EDIT: Apologies if mentioned already, but if there's been doubts over Forrester's willingness to sign a new deal, might that explain bringing in Flint this summer? Could well have been left with just Jagielka, Wilmot, Taylor and a returning Souttar if he didn't commit. Similarly, if Jagielka's deal only runs to January he could well retire mid-season - then you need an experienced head at the back because everyone else in the defence is under 25 and varying shades of green. Definitely think the lad has been unlucky to have had a disrupted season last year where he was hanging round after January as back up and Taylor, who had a really good loan, has now seemingly moved ahead of him in the pecking order but that's football. He's backing himself to go and get games now, rather than relying on players leaving to get his break here.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jul 26, 2022 10:39:58 GMT
I think it mainly took place under Joey Barton. ๐๐๐ MON has had no positive influence on Harryโs career or development? Priceless. I didn't say that did I. Again the failure to understand basic English makes your argument baseless. "Mainly"
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jul 26, 2022 10:41:22 GMT
What's that got to do with anything? It was about your comment about Souttar always looking the part. He didn't. Far from it too. He's worked remarkably hard to fix the mistakes in his game and has kicked on massively since he was 21. There's an intelligence with him I like. He learns and that's something a lot of players don't have. It's also why I don't think he's top 6 PL material. But he does learn and if he carried on learning then there could be a chance. Intelligent defenders are joyous and he's one. Souttar always looked like he had the attributes to become a first team regular and kick on as far as I was concerned, I said that from the off. I was concerned by his lack of pace slightly but nothing else. So what stands out to you with Forrester? Everything I've seen so far screams League One/League Two career, and there's nothing wrong with that and if he proves me wrong good luck to the lad....... I don't think anything stands out. He just looks an all round good player. Good with the ball, can tackle, reads the games, wins headers and just doesn't look out of place. You don't notice him which is what you want from a defender.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2022 10:41:52 GMT
Absolutely ridiculous criticism. Itโs mental. MON can be criticised on a number of levels. Chiefly our apparent lack of an obvious pattern of play or style. But to suggest heโs mismanaged our younger players is crazy. I canโt recall any previous manager placing as much faith in the younger players. You're letting facts get in the way here. Simply won't do.
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Post by warringtonstokie on Jul 26, 2022 10:42:05 GMT
Sparrow has played one professional game for us and been behind Duhaney in the pecking order whoโs possibly the most nothing football player Iโve seen play for Stoke. Bursik was dropped for perennial League One back up goalkeeper Jack Bonham. Taylor has played a single game for us and Iโd imagine will sit behind 33 year old Aden Flint in the squad. DWP won player of the month then was dropped from the squad. Campbell has stagnated. Tom Edwards was bombed. And now weโre shipping Forrester off to the Vale in favour of the aforementioned Flint. Hardly a roaring success bar Souttar is it? I'm not particularly wowed by Bonham as a keeper, but starting 2017 until his move to us he played pretty much every game for the clubs he was at. Definitely not a 'back up' by any stretch. Fair enough but regardless, heโs shite and should under no circumstances start over Bursik with just those two available.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Jul 26, 2022 10:42:49 GMT
I thought it was Maguire or Peter Griffiths? I was just going off the Sentinel article FM posted.......
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Post by foxysgloves on Jul 26, 2022 10:44:10 GMT
๐๐๐ MON has had no positive influence on Harryโs career or development? Priceless. I didn't say that did I. Again the failure to understand basic English makes your argument baseless. "Mainly" So. Youโre saying MON has had a positive impact in developing Harry as a player? Proving that he can develop young players? Weirdly Harry seems to agree: He said: "The manager's been really good, really honest. We've had a good couple of chats about what I need to do to get in the team and stay in the team and how the team structure works. "It's learning things that I haven't necessarily gone through before about how he wants the back three to play or when it goes into a five. It's little things that you have to learn and adjust."
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Post by prestwichpotter on Jul 26, 2022 10:45:26 GMT
Souttar always looked like he had the attributes to become a first team regular and kick on as far as I was concerned, I said that from the off. I was concerned by his lack of pace slightly but nothing else. So what stands out to you with Forrester? Everything I've seen so far screams League One/League Two career, and there's nothing wrong with that and if he proves me wrong good luck to the lad....... I don't think anything stands out. He just looks an all round good player. Good with the ball, can tackle, reads the games, wins headers and just doesn't look out of place. You don't notice him which is what you want from a defender. Should walk into Vale's back three then.......
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jul 26, 2022 10:45:58 GMT
I didn't say that did I. Again the failure to understand basic English makes your argument baseless. "Mainly" So. Youโre saying MON has had a positive impact in developing Harry as a player? Proving that he can develop young players? Weirdly Harry seems to agree: He said: "The manager's been really good, really honest. We've had a good couple of chats about what I need to do to get in the team and stay in the team and how the team structure works. "It's learning things that I haven't necessarily gone through before about how he wants the back three to play or when it goes into a five. It's little things that you have to learn and adjust." Yes but the majority of it was done on loan. He came back ready to fit in. And indeed should have been called back a bit sooner.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Jul 26, 2022 10:49:17 GMT
Let's hope we've backed the right horse with Taylor.
Vale will be kicking themselves if Taylor goes on to make it after releasing him as a youngster..........
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Post by theonlooker on Jul 26, 2022 10:50:05 GMT
I can smell the trench foot from here...
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Post by cvillestokie on Jul 26, 2022 10:51:42 GMT
Well for all of his apparent potential, he only managed to generate sufficient interest for a newly promoted league 1 team who could quite easily bounce straight back down like most of them do.
Hopefully we have a decent sell on clause on the off chance that he will come good at some point.
For me, he got injured at the wrong time and now we have Wilmot, Taylor and Souttar who are all young and ahead of him.
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Post by foxysgloves on Jul 26, 2022 10:51:46 GMT
So. Youโre saying MON has had a positive impact in developing Harry as a player? Proving that he can develop young players? Weirdly Harry seems to agree: He said: "The manager's been really good, really honest. We've had a good couple of chats about what I need to do to get in the team and stay in the team and how the team structure works. "It's learning things that I haven't necessarily gone through before about how he wants the back three to play or when it goes into a five. It's little things that you have to learn and adjust." Yes but the majority of it was done on loan. He came back ready to fit in. And indeed should have been called back a bit sooner. ๐๐๐ Of course.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jul 26, 2022 10:52:01 GMT
Let's hope we've backed the right horse with Taylor. Vale will be kicking themselves if Taylor goes on to make it after releasing him as a youngster.......... We tried to back both horses but the player didn't want to.....
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jul 26, 2022 10:52:34 GMT
Yes but the majority of it was done on loan. He came back ready to fit in. And indeed should have been called back a bit sooner. ๐๐๐ Of course. I mean it clearly was. Like Taylor. Barton has played a massive role for both of them.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Jul 26, 2022 10:53:17 GMT
Let's hope we've backed the right horse with Taylor. Vale will be kicking themselves if Taylor goes on to make it after releasing him as a youngster.......... We tried to back both horses but the player didn't want to..... His choice. If he's at Kidgrove Athletic in a few seasons he may regret it. We shall see........
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