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Post by fortressbritannia on May 7, 2022 21:54:59 GMT
I feel.this is a real quandary for.us to sort out over the summer!
In my mind we play 4-2-3-1. I feel Campbell's best position is out wide, Powell in the 10 role, DWP can play either out wide or in behind, Brown can be used either up top of on the right, Baker can use his box to box ability in one of the holding role.
But equally this throws up so many issues for us. Tymon isn't really suited to a traditional full back role, who the hell plays right back, we have no real holding midfielder who can help us defensively to play alongside Baker, who plays upfront while Brown has been a revelation (and will be important for us next season) I don't think he's an option to play 40+ league games up front, will Campbell work out wide forces after his injury, can DWP develop to be an option for us long term.
The wingback system has given us some positives. Tymon has had a real strong season, Brown has been stupendous this season, Souttar before his injury looked liked he was seasoned pro.
Having daid that we have had so many concerns with it. Throwing away 30+ points from winning positions is a disgrace, who plays RWB, I'm not convinced on Campbell through the middle long term, playing 3 sort of box to box midfielders has just not worked, we appear light on centre halves now.
I'm struggling to see what kind of player we'll be looking for in the summer. We have a real mishmash of players who all seem to suit different formations. I can't see what we'll be looking for because I can see where the club are going, I don't feel like these last 2 seasons have set us up for anything! We seem just to be wondering around aimlessly like when I lose the missus in Primark
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Post by FullerMagic on May 7, 2022 22:12:53 GMT
Like you say, so many questions. I'm not even sure he knows. He clearly wanted to play a back 4 when JPB came in
No keeper we can trust
Can Tymon play in a 4?
No RBs on the books apart from Duhaney
Can Brown lead the line in a 4-3-3? Probably not.
Can Campbell and Brown play in the same XI? Who plays wide right between them if we did go with a back 4?
Will Souttar look as much at home as he did in a 3?
I don't think anything has taken root sufficiently under MON to say there's anything worth building on that necessitates him being the one given the keys to a full-scale rebuild.
This is the perfect fork in the road for someone else.
We've got a very tight squad now of senior pros, hardly any building blocks, and about half of those under contract are useless with no future here.
Time for a new man to have a go with a bit of flexibility to shape something and build his own side, rather than be saddled with parts of another man's vision. There'll never be a more natural break point after 2 seasons of underperformance, rather than risk a new man coming in with no flexibility next autumn
Bursik Bonham 2023
Jagielka January
Duhaney Fox 2023
Wilmot Souttar Tymon 2025
Clucas Etebo 2023
Baker Doughty Thompson DWP 2024
Afobe 2023
Campbell 2024
Brown 2025
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Post by cvillestokie on May 8, 2022 1:30:55 GMT
3-5-2 makes the most sense to me.
Wilmot and Forrester either side of Souttar. Jagielka to challenge Souttar and a 6 month loan for Taylor while Jagielka is guaranteed to be here.
Tymon could become a very good wing back; he’s still young/new to the role.
Smith looks to be gone; we need a right footed Tymon.
We need a target man, a goalkeeper and an defensive midfielder. If we get those, our team becomes very good. It’s a very decent team right now. We’ve shown that. It’s just imbalanced.
New Gk/Bonham (back up/Bursik on loan
New right wing back
Forrester
Souttar/Jagielka
Wilmot
Tymon/Doughty
New cm/Thompson as back up
Baker
Powell/bring in a back up
Target man
Brown/Campbell/DWP
That team could develop into something very decent.
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Post by Gary Hackett on May 8, 2022 6:50:55 GMT
Like you say, so many questions. I'm not even sure he knows. He clearly wanted to play a back 4 when JPB came in No keeper we can trust Can Tymon play in a 4? No RBs on the books apart from Duhaney Can Brown lead the line in a 4-3-3? Probably not. Can Campbell and Brown play in the same XI? Who plays wide right between them if we did go with a back 4? Will Souttar look as much at home as he did in a 3? I don't think anything has taken root sufficiently under MON to say there's anything worth building on that necessitates him being the one given the keys to a full-scale rebuild. This is the perfect fork in the road for someone else. We've got a very tight squad now of senior pros, hardly any building blocks, and about half of those under contract are useless with no future here. Time for a new man to have a go with a bit of flexibility to shape something and build his own side, rather than be saddled with parts of another man's vision. There'll never be a more natural break point after 2 seasons of underperformance, rather than risk a new man coming in with no flexibility next autumn Bursik Bonham 2023 Jagielka January Duhaney Fox 2023 Wilmot Souttar Tymon 2025 Clucas Etebo 2023 Baker Doughty Thompson DWP 2024 Afobe 2023 Campbell 2024 Brown 2025 There's not much I can add to that it sums up the situation for me perfectly. I think given a choice he'd go with 352 every day of the week. He went to 433 as you say when we signed JPB as a last roll of the dice to get a promotion push. The biggest problem for me is that it's clear he has no road map out of this just an approach that'll be dictated by who he signs then worry about how they fit in afterwards, it's a terrible way to manage a football club. |
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Post by dutchstokie on May 8, 2022 6:51:51 GMT
We play a formation going forward do we ?
Best tell the players that……that’s probably where we’ve been going wrong
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Post by lordb on May 8, 2022 7:28:49 GMT
It's not as important as playing with intent, intelligence and spirit
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on May 8, 2022 7:47:07 GMT
It's not as important as playing with intent, intelligence and spirit It is if we try and play one we don’t have the players for, which we’ve frequently done over the last few years with fairly disastrous results. Intent and intelligence are informed by how you use your players, it isn’t a case of sticking them anywhere and saying ‘play with intent, intelligence and spirit’. |
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Post by bayernoatcake on May 8, 2022 7:50:44 GMT
I still can’t see past 4231. It offers everything we need at home if done correctly. People will bemoan the 1 striker but it’s a formation that should see 4 players being in the box regularly if done right.
3 at the back at home just hasn’t worked for us. I get it for away games but at home it’s been a disaster.
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Post by Ron on May 8, 2022 7:56:03 GMT
The problem was he spent all more season playing with a back 5 which had us nearly placed in jan. he ditched it and it was disastrous. Why he ditched it on the back of a couple of bad results is beyond me.
The period where we ditched it was the period that cost us this season.
Whoever is in charge next season needs to build a squad to play a formation and stick with it.
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Post by lordb on May 8, 2022 7:58:11 GMT
It's not as important as playing with intent, intelligence and spirit It is if we try and play one we don’t have the players for, which we’ve frequently done over the last few years with fairly disastrous results. Intent and intelligence are informed by how you use your players, it isn’t a case of sticking them anywhere and saying ‘play with intent, intelligence and spirit’. I'll stand by my comment Of course formation (formations really having one formation only for an entire season is asking for trouble) is important but the above are more important If all the right players are in the right places but play Shyte you will lose every time It's not an either or mind you need both (& more) to be successful |
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Post by crouchpotato1 on May 8, 2022 8:01:19 GMT
There’s no doubt for me that once Souttar is back we’ll go back to 3-5-2 or 3-4-3.We need wingbacks that are capable of playing in that system but also decent enough if we switch to a back four.
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Post by lordb on May 8, 2022 8:04:51 GMT
There’s no doubt for me that once Souttar is back we’ll go back to 3-5-2 or 3-4-3.We need wingbacks that are capable of playing in that system but also decent enough if we switch to a back four. Back four or wing backs we need a new RB/RWB LB cover too ideally |
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Post by a on May 8, 2022 8:08:26 GMT
Like you say, so many questions. I'm not even sure he knows. He clearly wanted to play a back 4 when JPB came in No keeper we can trust Can Tymon play in a 4? No RBs on the books apart from Duhaney Can Brown lead the line in a 4-3-3? Probably not. Can Campbell and Brown play in the same XI? Who plays wide right between them if we did go with a back 4? Will Souttar look as much at home as he did in a 3? I don't think anything has taken root sufficiently under MON to say there's anything worth building on that necessitates him being the one given the keys to a full-scale rebuild. This is the perfect fork in the road for someone else. We've got a very tight squad now of senior pros, hardly any building blocks, and about half of those under contract are useless with no future here. Time for a new man to have a go with a bit of flexibility to shape something and build his own side, rather than be saddled with parts of another man's vision. There'll never be a more natural break point after 2 seasons of underperformance, rather than risk a new man coming in with no flexibility next autumn Bursik Bonham 2023 Jagielka January Duhaney Fox 2023 Wilmot Souttar Tymon 2025 Clucas Etebo 2023 Baker Doughty Thompson DWP 2024 Afobe
2023 Campbell 2024 Brown 2025 Wtf, when did Tommy Smith leave?! |
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Post by crouchpotato1 on May 8, 2022 8:08:58 GMT
Like you say, so many questions. I'm not even sure he knows. He clearly wanted to play a back 4 when JPB came in No keeper we can trust Can Tymon play in a 4? No RBs on the books apart from Duhaney Can Brown lead the line in a 4-3-3? Probably not. Can Campbell and Brown play in the same XI? Who plays wide right between them if we did go with a back 4? Will Souttar look as much at home as he did in a 3? I don't think anything has taken root sufficiently under MON to say there's anything worth building on that necessitates him being the one given the keys to a full-scale rebuild. This is the perfect fork in the road for someone else. We've got a very tight squad now of senior pros, hardly any building blocks, and about half of those under contract are useless with no future here. Time for a new man to have a go with a bit of flexibility to shape something and build his own side, rather than be saddled with parts of another man's vision. There'll never be a more natural break point after 2 seasons of underperformance, rather than risk a new man coming in with no flexibility next autumn Bursik Bonham 2023 Jagielka January Duhaney Fox 2023 Wilmot Souttar Tymon 2025 Clucas Etebo 2023 Baker Doughty Thompson DWP 2024 Afobe
2023 Campbell 2024 Brown 2025 Wtf, when did Tommy Smith leave?! Yesterday |
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Post by neddy on May 8, 2022 8:09:45 GMT
Like you say, so many questions. I'm not even sure he knows. He clearly wanted to play a back 4 when JPB came in No keeper we can trust Can Tymon play in a 4? No RBs on the books apart from Duhaney Can Brown lead the line in a 4-3-3? Probably not. Can Campbell and Brown play in the same XI? Who plays wide right between them if we did go with a back 4? Will Souttar look as much at home as he did in a 3? I don't think anything has taken root sufficiently under MON to say there's anything worth building on that necessitates him being the one given the keys to a full-scale rebuild. This is the perfect fork in the road for someone else. We've got a very tight squad now of senior pros, hardly any building blocks, and about half of those under contract are useless with no future here. Time for a new man to have a go with a bit of flexibility to shape something and build his own side, rather than be saddled with parts of another man's vision. There'll never be a more natural break point after 2 seasons of underperformance, rather than risk a new man coming in with no flexibility next autumn Bursik Bonham 2023 Jagielka January Duhaney Fox 2023 Wilmot Souttar Tymon 2025 Clucas Etebo 2023 Baker Doughty Thompson DWP 2024 Afobe 2023 Campbell 2024 Brown 2025 Crikey that is a sobering post…. Out of that list I would take out…. Duhaney not good enough even as cover. Fox pay him off now! Clucas just about retain as cover. Etebo loaned out. Afobe loaned out. Leaving Bursik Bonham Jags Wilmer Souttar Tymon Clucas Baker Doughty Thompson Campbell Brown Of that even if completely on form as first teamers…. Bursik Jags Souttar Tymon Baker Brown Campbell And there are ? over some of them. Depressing….oh well enjoy summer! |
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Post by a on May 8, 2022 8:10:30 GMT
Wtf, when did Tommy Smith leave?! Yesterday Oh right! Thanks for clearing that up, missed that one! |
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on May 8, 2022 8:11:09 GMT
It is if we try and play one we don’t have the players for, which we’ve frequently done over the last few years with fairly disastrous results. Intent and intelligence are informed by how you use your players, it isn’t a case of sticking them anywhere and saying ‘play with intent, intelligence and spirit’. I'll stand by my comment Of course formation (formations really having one formation only for an entire season is asking for trouble) is important but the above are more important If all the right players are in the right places but play Shyte you will lose every time It's not an either or mind you need both (& more) to be successful It's much harder to do one without the other though. You're hamstringing your players from the off if you're putting them into a system that doesn't get the best out of them. Even the best players in the world can be neutered if you don't play a system that suits them or use them in a role that gets the best out of them. I think most clubs have a favoured formation but also a plan b that they'll use on occasion - Liverpool don't seem to have asked for trouble for largely sticking with the same system. |
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Post by crouchpotato1 on May 8, 2022 8:13:04 GMT
Oh right! Thanks for clearing that up, missed that one! Along with Fletcher and Chester |
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Post by a on May 8, 2022 8:13:34 GMT
Oh right! Thanks for clearing that up, missed that one! Along with Fletcher and Chester Wow. Some wages being shifted then… |
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Post by wakeypotter on May 8, 2022 8:15:35 GMT
I still can’t see past 4231. It offers everything we need at home if done correctly. People will bemoan the 1 striker but it’s a formation that should see 4 players being in the box regularly if done right. 3 at the back at home just hasn’t worked for us. I get it for away games but at home it’s been a disaster. Agreed and we need to build a team/squad where players can play in there positions and know what there doing, Not square pegs in round holes. |
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Post by lordb on May 8, 2022 8:18:06 GMT
I'll stand by my comment Of course formation (formations really having one formation only for an entire season is asking for trouble) is important but the above are more important If all the right players are in the right places but play Shyte you will lose every time It's not an either or mind you need both (& more) to be successful It's much harder to do one without the other though. You're hamstringing your players from the off if you're putting them into a system that doesn't get the best out of them. Even the best players in the world can be neutered if you don't play a system that suits them or use them in a role that gets the best out of them. I think most clubs have a favoured formation but also a plan b that they'll use on occasion - Liverpool don't seem to have asked for trouble for largely sticking with the same system. Yes but Liverpool big driver in their sucess is the way they play not the formation The press, the energy they play with the intelligent forward thinking football all more important If it was the other way around it would be easy Take 433 we played under Rowett, the contrast couldn't be clearer Now you can get situation where the wrong formation is a killer, see Jones with his diamond without the right fullbacks As I say its not mutually exclusive it all matters I just get frustrated as I think the arguments over formation are over done Stoke this season have been equally bad with 433 as we have with 352 Or when we have played well it's been with either formation |
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Post by wakeypotter on May 8, 2022 8:18:15 GMT
There’s no doubt for me that once Souttar is back we’ll go back to 3-5-2 or 3-4-3.We need wingbacks that are capable of playing in that system but also decent enough if we switch to a back four. Away from home maybe but not at home. Needs 4 at the back |
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Post by crouchpotato1 on May 8, 2022 8:19:04 GMT
There’s no doubt for me that once Souttar is back we’ll go back to 3-5-2 or 3-4-3.We need wingbacks that are capable of playing in that system but also decent enough if we switch to a back four. Away from home maybe but not at home. Needs 4 at the back It worked perfectly well at home until Souttar got injured |
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on May 8, 2022 8:22:23 GMT
It's much harder to do one without the other though. You're hamstringing your players from the off if you're putting them into a system that doesn't get the best out of them. Even the best players in the world can be neutered if you don't play a system that suits them or use them in a role that gets the best out of them. I think most clubs have a favoured formation but also a plan b that they'll use on occasion - Liverpool don't seem to have asked for trouble for largely sticking with the same system. Yes but Liverpool big driver in their sucess is the way they play not the formation The press, the energy they play with the intelligent forward thinking football all more important If it was the other way around it would be easy Take 433 we played under Rowett, the contrast couldn't be clearer Now you can get situation where the wrong formation is a killer, see Jones with his diamond without the right fullbacks As I say its not mutually exclusive it all matters I just get frustrated as I think the arguments over formation are over done Stoke this season have been equally bad with 433 as we have with 352 Or when we have played well it's been with either formation That's the exact point though, the way Liverpool set up allows them to play that way effectively and their recruitment is in sync with that as well, they target and sign players ideal for it. Rowett's failed because he's an idiot and splurged on players who didn't. It didn't really suit the few remaining good players he inherited and it didn't suit the players he spunked his warchest on. We have played well at times and badly at times with more than one formation as you say, but the cases where we played well it was generally because the balance was right either way. That's what we've got wrong too often. |
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Post by wakeypotter on May 8, 2022 8:39:11 GMT
Away from home maybe but not at home. Needs 4 at the back It worked perfectly well at home until Souttar got injured Not really we were just better with souttar It’s way too defensive for at home. Away fine |
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Post by suck_the_mop. on May 8, 2022 8:39:56 GMT
Backwards..
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Post by thehartshillbadger on May 8, 2022 8:46:04 GMT
4-3-3
New GK
New RB
Souttar
Taylor
New LB
New DM
Baker
Powell
Brown
Campbell
DWP
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Post by headsgoup on May 8, 2022 8:50:39 GMT
352 doesnt get the best out of Powell.
4231 doesn't get the best out of Baker.
433 might stretch Souttar too far.
Any formation starting with '4' terrifies Tymon.
It's a real mess.
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Post by crouchpotato1 on May 8, 2022 8:54:13 GMT
It worked perfectly well at home until Souttar got injured Not really we were just better with souttar It’s way too defensive for at home. Away fine So a record of 5 wins,2 draws and 1 defeat at home with him there doesn’t prove my point then🤔 |
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Post by theonlooker on May 8, 2022 8:55:24 GMT
If we keep Powell then it has to be a system where he can play off the front line, be it 4231, 3412, 343 (with tens instead of wide men like at Preston).
If we don't keep Powell then it can be as fluid as you like.
Keeping Powell and playing him as an 8, or as a wide man in a 433 isn't really a good start.
Given the emergence of Brown this season, I'd be tempted to say 3412, with Powell behind Brown and a target man type - Baker plus a physical player alongside him in midfield (Do we already have that with Thompson?) and a new crazy horse RWB.
Something like:
............New GK
Wilmot Souttar/Jagielka New CB
New RWB. Baker. Thompson. Tymon
............Powell...........
...Brown/Campbell. New Target Man
That would be minimal front line surgery given our losses this summer and would allow us more room to invest in younger players to provide backup/competition going forward...
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