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Post by klingon on Apr 10, 2022 12:42:20 GMT
Watching Osasuna v Alaves. Loads of safe standing behind the goal. Why not at the 365 if they’re having a refurbishment?
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Post by Malcolm Clarke on Apr 10, 2022 16:45:58 GMT
Watching Osasuna v Alaves. Loads of safe standing behind the goal. Why not at the 365 if they’re having a refurbishment? That is a question I asked for discussion at the Supporters Council but no clear commitment from the Club although the tone and the possibility of supporter consultation on it sounded a bit more positive than when I’ve asked previously. We saw ourselves how it can work well when we visited Cardiff recently
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Post by partickpotter on Apr 10, 2022 17:06:12 GMT
Watching Osasuna v Alaves. Loads of safe standing behind the goal. Why not at the 365 if they’re having a refurbishment? That is a question I asked for discussion at the Supporters Council but no clear commitment from the Club although the tone and the possibility of supporter consultation on it sounded a bit more positive than when I’ve asked previously. We saw ourselves how it can work well when we visited Cardiff recently Is it a question of cost? As far as I understand, the switch to safe standing doesn’t increase capacity. If that’s true, it’s a cost for which there is no return. Very hard to justify for our club just now.
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Post by thehartshillbadger on Apr 10, 2022 17:10:15 GMT
That is a question I asked for discussion at the Supporters Council but no clear commitment from the Club although the tone and the possibility of supporter consultation on it sounded a bit more positive than when I’ve asked previously. We saw ourselves how it can work well when we visited Cardiff recently Is it a question of cost? As far as I understand, the switch to safe standing doesn’t increase capacity. If that’s true, it’s a cost for which there is no return. Very hard to justify for our club just now. I imagine the cost is minimal, it’ll just be general consensus opinion. I don’t think cost comes into it whatsoever
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Post by AlbertTatlock on Apr 10, 2022 18:12:57 GMT
I hope we don't go back to standing areas, even though there seems to be a vocal minority in favour I can't imagine for 1 minute how it would improve the matchday experience. Gouranga.
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Post by scfcwebby on Apr 10, 2022 18:16:39 GMT
I hope we don't go back to standing areas, even though there seems to be a vocal minority in favour I can't imagine for 1 minute how it would improve the matchday experience. Gouranga. I suppose its all down to preference. If you want to sit go in the seated area and standers go in the safe standing area. I love standing at away games but the seats have been a godsend for some of the cack we've seen at home this season, standing through that would be painful
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Post by Laughing Gravy on Apr 10, 2022 18:24:27 GMT
Is it a question of cost? As far as I understand, the switch to safe standing doesn’t increase capacity. If that’s true, it’s a cost for which there is no return. Very hard to justify for our club just now. I imagine the cost is minimal, it’ll just be general consensus opinion. I don’t think cost comes into it whatsoever Are we talking about ‘rail seating’ here? If so I would have thought the cost would be considerable fixing rails safely to the backs of the existing seating or possibly entirely replacing it with purpose made rail seats.
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Post by thehartshillbadger on Apr 10, 2022 18:38:54 GMT
I imagine the cost is minimal, it’ll just be general consensus opinion. I don’t think cost comes into it whatsoever Are we talking about ‘rail seating’ here? If so I would have thought the cost would be considerable fixing rails safely to the backs of the existing seating or possibly entirely replacing it with purpose made rail seats. Well yeh but depending on how many I’d imagine cost wise it’s a drop in the ocean. 50-200k depending on area planned?
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Post by lagwafis on Apr 10, 2022 19:14:17 GMT
I imagine the cost is minimal, it’ll just be general consensus opinion. I don’t think cost comes into it whatsoever Are we talking about ‘rail seating’ here? If so I would have thought the cost would be considerable fixing rails safely to the backs of the existing seating or possibly entirely replacing it with purpose made rail seats. Richard Smith said back in 2017 it would also involve some changes to the actual terracing, though didn't go into detail around what this would cost.
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Post by innercitysumo on Apr 10, 2022 19:46:53 GMT
That is a question I asked for discussion at the Supporters Council but no clear commitment from the Club although the tone and the possibility of supporter consultation on it sounded a bit more positive than when I’ve asked previously. We saw ourselves how it can work well when we visited Cardiff recently Is it a question of cost? As far as I understand, the switch to safe standing doesn’t increase capacity. If that’s true, it’s a cost for which there is no return. Very hard to justify for our club just now. I’m pretty sure that Borussia Durtmund’s capacity depreciates by around 20000 when they play European games as the “safe standing” areas have to be seated
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Post by banksy1art on Apr 10, 2022 19:55:52 GMT
Is it a question of cost? As far as I understand, the switch to safe standing doesn’t increase capacity. If that’s true, it’s a cost for which there is no return. Very hard to justify for our club just now. I’m pretty sure that Borussia Durtmund’s capacity depreciates by around 20000 when they play European games as the “safe standing” areas have to be seated It’s mainly because they have actual terracing, they have fittings for seats on the terracing so when they play European matches they can just bolt seats down. I watched a video on it not long ago was a proper interesting watch
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2022 19:55:53 GMT
Is it a question of cost? As far as I understand, the switch to safe standing doesn’t increase capacity. If that’s true, it’s a cost for which there is no return. Very hard to justify for our club just now. I’m pretty sure that Borussia Durtmund’s capacity depreciates by around 20000 when they play European games as the “safe standing” areas have to be seated I'm pretty sure a big chunk of Dortmund's famous end is traditional terracing as opposed to safe-standing. Always wondered how they convert traditional terracing, but they do. edit: ye definitely traditional terracing
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Post by SamB_SCFC on Apr 10, 2022 20:26:14 GMT
The problem I have with safe standing is that it's not proper unreserved terracing. You still get an allocated 'space' like you do with a seat and so most of the existing problems with all seater stadiums are still there like not being able to bring friends and family with you who aren't regular attendees, being stuck in the same spot every week with no option to move around etc.
The biggest thing I miss about old terracing is the fact that it was unreserved. It didn't matter if you were a season ticket holder of 30 years, a fair weather fan who comes regularly when we're doing well and less often when we're shit, a kid who's just starting out or even a family member or friend who isn't a fan and wants to come along for the occasion. It made no difference, no one had more right than anyone else to any particular spot and crucially, friends and family were always able to stand together regardless of their ticket status. And if you needed to drop your season ticket for a while, like when starting a family or taking a shift working job that means you'll miss some matches because of work, you could do so without penalty and pick and choose your games till such time that you were able to come back. Now you feel pressured into renewing every year so you don't lose your seat next to the people you sit with.
Safe standing still suffers from all of those issues due to the spaces being allocated so it doesn't appeal to me at all.
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Post by Gods on Apr 10, 2022 20:35:22 GMT
The problem I have with safe standing is that it's not proper unreserved terracing. You still get an allocated 'space' like you do with a seat and so most of the existing problems with all seater stadiums are still there like not being able to bring friends and family with you who aren't regular attendees, being stuck in the same spot every week with no option to move around etc. The biggest thing I miss about old terracing is the fact that it was unreserved. It didn't matter if you were a season ticket holder of 30 years, a fair weather fan who comes regularly when we're doing well and less often when we're shit, a kid who's just starting out or even a family member or friend who isn't a fan and wants to come along for the occasion. It made no difference, no one had more right than anyone else to any particular spot and crucially, friends and family were always able to stand together regardless of their ticket status. And if you needed to drop your season ticket for a while, like when starting a family or taking a shift working job that means you'll miss some matches because of work, you could do so without penalty and pick and choose your games till such time that you were able to come back. Now you feel pressured into renewing every year so you don't lose your seat next to the people you sit with. Safe standing still suffers from all of those issues due to the spaces being allocated so it doesn't appeal to me at all. I liked this, then un-liked it so I could like it twice! As you say the benefit of standing is not the very act of standing rather the freedom to roam that it afforded. Safe standing is standing with none of the real benefits of standing. Fundamentally it's standing behind a seat like 90% of us do at away games.
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Post by Malcolm Clarke on Apr 10, 2022 21:27:28 GMT
I hope we don't go back to standing areas, even though there seems to be a vocal minority in favour I can't imagine for 1 minute how it would improve the matchday experience. Gouranga. All the evidence suggests that the majority of fans ( not a “ vocal minority “ ) are in favour of fans having the choice on how they want to view the game - which is what this is ( incidentally ‘vocal’ just means expressing an opinion, which we are all entitled to do ). One way in which it will improve the match day experience is for those fans who have stopped going to away games because they can’t or don’t want to stand, and have their view blocked by those standing in front of them. The idea that it involves a “ return” to standing is of course untrue. The reality of course is that tens of thousands stand every week, particularly away fans. This is just about doing it in a safe, sensible way which recognises that reality and gives fans a choice.
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Post by iamstokie on Apr 10, 2022 21:33:53 GMT
If it isn’t broke don’t fix it , seating as worked for years , no need go back to the past , it won’t be any cheaper
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Post by BristolMick on Apr 10, 2022 22:16:05 GMT
I hope we don't go back to standing areas, even though there seems to be a vocal minority in favour I can't imagine for 1 minute how it would improve the matchday experience. Gouranga. Don’t impose your preference on everyone else. Sit if YOU want but the paradox is that no one CAN sit at away games. Give everyone a choice, then people like you can sit, people who want to stand can do so without forcing everyone else to do the same. BM
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Post by Malcolm Clarke on Apr 11, 2022 0:12:40 GMT
If it isn’t broke don’t fix it , seating as worked for years , no need go back to the past , it won’t be any cheaper It clearly is broke because thousands stand in seated areas every week causing problems for those who can’t or don’t want to stand . That is why the relevant professional body, the Sports Ground Safety Authority, has changed its view and the Government has accepted their advice
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Post by Laughing Gravy on Apr 11, 2022 8:19:35 GMT
If it isn’t broke don’t fix it , seating as worked for years , no need go back to the past , it won’t be any cheaper It clearly is broke because thousands stand in seated areas every week causing problems for those who can’t or don’t want to stand . That is why the relevant professional body, the Sports Ground Safety Authority, has changed its view and the Government has accepted their advice We’ve in effect accepted standing at away games anyway as the advice is that if you want to sit book seats on the front few rows. In other words everywhere else we accept you’ll stand. What we need to do therefore is make that area as safe as possible however that might be. But it shouldn’t be beyond the wit of man to work it out.
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Post by 01782 on Apr 11, 2022 8:57:57 GMT
The problem I have with safe standing is that it's not proper unreserved terracing. You still get an allocated 'space' like you do with a seat and so most of the existing problems with all seater stadiums are still there like not being able to bring friends and family with you who aren't regular attendees, being stuck in the same spot every week with no option to move around etc. The biggest thing I miss about old terracing is the fact that it was unreserved. It didn't matter if you were a season ticket holder of 30 years, a fair weather fan who comes regularly when we're doing well and less often when we're shit, a kid who's just starting out or even a family member or friend who isn't a fan and wants to come along for the occasion. It made no difference, no one had more right than anyone else to any particular spot and crucially, friends and family were always able to stand together regardless of their ticket status. And if you needed to drop your season ticket for a while, like when starting a family or taking a shift working job that means you'll miss some matches because of work, you could do so without penalty and pick and choose your games till such time that you were able to come back. Now you feel pressured into renewing every year so you don't lose your seat next to the people you sit with. Safe standing still suffers from all of those issues due to the spaces being allocated so it doesn't appeal to me at all. This....
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Post by Malcolm Clarke on Apr 11, 2022 10:54:32 GMT
It clearly is broke because thousands stand in seated areas every week causing problems for those who can’t or don’t want to stand . That is why the relevant professional body, the Sports Ground Safety Authority, has changed its view and the Government has accepted their advice We’ve in effect accepted standing at away games anyway as the advice is that if you want to sit book seats on the front few rows. In other words everywhere else we accept you’ll stand. What we need to do therefore is make that area as safe as possible however that might be. But it shouldn’t be beyond the wit of man to work it out. That’s absolutely right. The authorities and all clubs have accepted that reality and have largely given up trying to make people sit down. Home crowds have largely sorted themselves out with particular areas being the seated areas in which the crowd stands. The advice given to our away fans to buy at the rear if you want to stand is unfortunately not always followed which is why some fans have given up going to away games. I think this is partly because ‘at the front’ and ‘at the back’ are not defined. Cardiff was interesting because it worked perfectly. All the standers went to the rail seats at the rear, and there was no one standing in the ordinary seats. I know the fact that it wasn’t a very large away following (relatively) helped but this surely has to be the way forward.
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Post by Malcolm Clarke on Apr 11, 2022 11:09:02 GMT
The problem I have with safe standing is that it's not proper unreserved terracing. You still get an allocated 'space' like you do with a seat and so most of the existing problems with all seater stadiums are still there like not being able to bring friends and family with you who aren't regular attendees, being stuck in the same spot every week with no option to move around etc. The biggest thing I miss about old terracing is the fact that it was unreserved. It didn't matter if you were a season ticket holder of 30 years, a fair weather fan who comes regularly when we're doing well and less often when we're shit, a kid who's just starting out or even a family member or friend who isn't a fan and wants to come along for the occasion. It made no difference, no one had more right than anyone else to any particular spot and crucially, friends and family were always able to stand together regardless of their ticket status. And if you needed to drop your season ticket for a while, like when starting a family or taking a shift working job that means you'll miss some matches because of work, you could do so without penalty and pick and choose your games till such time that you were able to come back. Now you feel pressured into renewing every year so you don't lose your seat next to the people you sit with. Safe standing still suffers from all of those issues due to the spaces being allocated so it doesn't appeal to me at all. There’s obviously a lot of truth in what you say, Sam , but my advice would be don’t let the best be the enemy of the better. Rail seating areas do allow greater freedom of movement than ordinary seats and the safe physical capacity is greater, even though tickets will be sold on a 1 to 1 basis at least at first. How it is managed may develop over time but stewards will not be saying you must stand exactly there. Of course it will not be the like the old terraces you describe ( which of course still exist in leagues 1 & 2 and non league ) but it will be better than what we have now. One step at a time !
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Post by J-Roar on Apr 11, 2022 11:10:17 GMT
If it isn’t broke don’t fix it , seating as worked for years , no need go back to the past , it won’t be any cheaper It is broke. People who want to stand do so. Which is unsafe. No one is suggesting going back to the past, they are actually making things safer for the future.
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Post by SamB_SCFC on Apr 11, 2022 15:25:45 GMT
If it isn’t broke don’t fix it , seating as worked for years , no need go back to the past , it won’t be any cheaper It clearly is broke because thousands stand in seated areas every week causing problems for those who can’t or don’t want to stand . That is why the relevant professional body, the Sports Ground Safety Authority, has changed its view and the Government has accepted their advice The problem is that the introduction of safe standing doesn't fix this problem either. The issue of fans standing in seating areas and blocking the view of fans who wish to sit is only really a problem at away games, you don't get a huge amount of persistent standing at home games and even where you do it tends to be in the back rows in areas without many season ticket holders like in our away end near the new corner where you get some persistent standing near to the away fans. Are clubs really going to invest in giving away fans the choice of both seating and standing? Away fans will continue to be housed in a single area which will be either seated or standing so will retain the same problems. One set of fans will remain disappointed.
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Post by Gods on Apr 11, 2022 16:11:06 GMT
The problem I have with safe standing is that it's not proper unreserved terracing. You still get an allocated 'space' like you do with a seat and so most of the existing problems with all seater stadiums are still there like not being able to bring friends and family with you who aren't regular attendees, being stuck in the same spot every week with no option to move around etc. The biggest thing I miss about old terracing is the fact that it was unreserved. It didn't matter if you were a season ticket holder of 30 years, a fair weather fan who comes regularly when we're doing well and less often when we're shit, a kid who's just starting out or even a family member or friend who isn't a fan and wants to come along for the occasion. It made no difference, no one had more right than anyone else to any particular spot and crucially, friends and family were always able to stand together regardless of their ticket status. And if you needed to drop your season ticket for a while, like when starting a family or taking a shift working job that means you'll miss some matches because of work, you could do so without penalty and pick and choose your games till such time that you were able to come back. Now you feel pressured into renewing every year so you don't lose your seat next to the people you sit with. Safe standing still suffers from all of those issues due to the spaces being allocated so it doesn't appeal to me at all. This.... Along with others I would sometimes stand at the back when Stoke attacked the opposite end and the front when they attacked the home end, that is the kind of freedom afforded to you by real standing but it seems that's as far away as it ever was. Lost perhaps forever in the buckled barriers of Hillsborough and the crumbling walls of the Heysel :-(
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Apr 11, 2022 17:57:22 GMT
It clearly is broke because thousands stand in seated areas every week causing problems for those who can’t or don’t want to stand . That is why the relevant professional body, the Sports Ground Safety Authority, has changed its view and the Government has accepted their advice The problem is that the introduction of safe standing doesn't fix this problem either. The issue of fans standing in seating areas and blocking the view of fans who wish to sit is only really a problem at away games, you don't get a huge amount of persistent standing at home games and even where you do it tends to be in the back rows in areas without many season ticket holders like in our away end near the new corner where you get some persistent standing near to the away fans. Are clubs really going to invest in giving away fans the choice of both seating and standing? Away fans will continue to be housed in a single area which will be either seated or standing so will retain the same problems. One set of fans will remain disappointed.Not true. I would think that a condition of grounds adopting safe standing areas for some away fans will be that the club is REQUIRED to sell two types of ticket to the away fans - tickets for the safe standing area and tickets for the seated area. I would also imagine that clubs will not hesitate to eject those fans who buy tickets to sit in the seated area and persistently stand in that area. They won't have the licence to ignore the rules as they do at present in all seated stadia.
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Post by SamB_SCFC on Apr 11, 2022 19:06:12 GMT
The problem is that the introduction of safe standing doesn't fix this problem either. The issue of fans standing in seating areas and blocking the view of fans who wish to sit is only really a problem at away games, you don't get a huge amount of persistent standing at home games and even where you do it tends to be in the back rows in areas without many season ticket holders like in our away end near the new corner where you get some persistent standing near to the away fans. Are clubs really going to invest in giving away fans the choice of both seating and standing? Away fans will continue to be housed in a single area which will be either seated or standing so will retain the same problems. One set of fans will remain disappointed.Not true. I would think that a condition of grounds adopting safe standing areas for some away fans will be that the club is REQUIRED to sell two types of ticket to the away fans - tickets for the safe standing area and tickets for the seated area. I would also imagine that clubs will not hesitate to eject those fans who buy tickets to sit in the seated area and persistently stand in that area. They won't have the licence to ignore the rules as they do at present in all seated stadia. How would it work practically? Usually clubs put the away fans in a single section then some segregation with the rest of the stadium for home fans. To do that they'd have to convert the away end to be half seating, half standing or have 2 separate away sections in different parts of the ground. Sounds expensive and logistically tricky, can't imagine clubs being happy to do that for fans of the opposition. Edit: And this leads onto the other obvious problem. I'd suspect that a significant majority of away fans would choose to stand given the choice, meaning that the standing area would be oversubscribed a lot of the time. Completely unscientific, but seeing as away fans tend to be a bit louder, younger and more energetic than home fans I'd estimate probably around 70%, maybe more would choose to stand. Which inevitably means that plenty of standing fans will end up buying tickets in the seating area and a significant minority would stand regardless of the rules. How would that be dealt with practically? Fans who deliberately stand in seated areas despite knowing the rules tend to be boisterous, often drunk men who won't take kindly to being told no. Stewards on not much more than minimum wage probably won't want to deal with it, understandably so and getting the police to do it would be very expensive and they would probably consider such low level enforcement to be a waste of their resources and more likely to escalate things and create a bigger public order situation. This is the main reason why it doesn't get dealt with now, there's too many people who have a great potential to be aggressive and not enough staff to forcelibly eject hundreds of drunk, aggressive men. I can't see it working.
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Apr 11, 2022 21:07:56 GMT
Not true. I would think that a condition of grounds adopting safe standing areas for some away fans will be that the club is REQUIRED to sell two types of ticket to the away fans - tickets for the safe standing area and tickets for the seated area. I would also imagine that clubs will not hesitate to eject those fans who buy tickets to sit in the seated area and persistently stand in that area. They won't have the licence to ignore the rules as they do at present in all seated stadia. How would it work practically? Usually clubs put the away fans in a single section then some segregation with the rest of the stadium for home fans. To do that they'd have to convert the away end to be half seating, half standing or have 2 separate away sections in different parts of the ground. Sounds expensive and logistically tricky, can't imagine clubs being happy to do that for fans of the opposition. Edit: And this leads onto the other obvious problem. I'd suspect that a significant majority of away fans would choose to stand given the choice, meaning that the standing area would be oversubscribed a lot of the time. Completely unscientific, but seeing as away fans tend to be a bit louder, younger and more energetic than home fans I'd estimate probably around 70%, maybe more would choose to stand. Which inevitably means that plenty of standing fans will end up buying tickets in the seating area and a significant minority would stand regardless of the rules. How would that be dealt with practically? Fans who deliberately stand in seated areas despite knowing the rules tend to be boisterous, often drunk men who won't take kindly to being told no. Stewards on not much more than minimum wage probably won't want to deal with it, understandably so and getting the police to do it would be very expensive and they would probably consider such low level enforcement to be a waste of their resources and more likely to escalate things and create a bigger public order situation. This is the main reason why it doesn't get dealt with now, there's too many people who have a great potential to be aggressive and not enough staff to forcelibly eject hundreds of drunk, aggressive men. I can't see it working. A lot of safe standing areas in Europe can be quickly converted to seated areas for European games where standing is not allowed. Each row is capable of being a seated area or a standing area. So it can be split into seats at the front and standing at the back for away fans in league games. And it can be done row by row depending on demand. All they have to do is to ensure that the standing area is behind the seated area - how many rows are standing and how many are seated depends upon demand. If away fans are offered the choice of seats or standing areas why would anyone who wanted to stand be daft enough to buy a ticket for a seated area? In essence the whole point of safe standing is to offer each fan the choice of being seated or standing.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2022 21:10:19 GMT
How would it work practically? Usually clubs put the away fans in a single section then some segregation with the rest of the stadium for home fans. To do that they'd have to convert the away end to be half seating, half standing or have 2 separate away sections in different parts of the ground. Sounds expensive and logistically tricky, can't imagine clubs being happy to do that for fans of the opposition. Edit: And this leads onto the other obvious problem. I'd suspect that a significant majority of away fans would choose to stand given the choice, meaning that the standing area would be oversubscribed a lot of the time. Completely unscientific, but seeing as away fans tend to be a bit louder, younger and more energetic than home fans I'd estimate probably around 70%, maybe more would choose to stand. Which inevitably means that plenty of standing fans will end up buying tickets in the seating area and a significant minority would stand regardless of the rules. How would that be dealt with practically? Fans who deliberately stand in seated areas despite knowing the rules tend to be boisterous, often drunk men who won't take kindly to being told no. Stewards on not much more than minimum wage probably won't want to deal with it, understandably so and getting the police to do it would be very expensive and they would probably consider such low level enforcement to be a waste of their resources and more likely to escalate things and create a bigger public order situation. This is the main reason why it doesn't get dealt with now, there's too many people who have a great potential to be aggressive and not enough staff to forcelibly eject hundreds of drunk, aggressive men. I can't see it working. A lot of safe standing areas in Europe can be converted to seated areas for European games where standing is not allowed. Each row is capable of being a seated area or a standing area. So it can be split into seats at the front and standing at the back for away fans in league games. And it can be done row by row depending on demand. All they have to do is to ensure that the standing area is behind the seated area - how many rows are standing and how many are seated depends upon demand. If away fans are offered the choice of seats or standing areas why would anyone who wanted to stand be daft enough to buy a ticket for a seated area? In essence the whole point of safe standing is to offer each fans the choice of being seated or standing. Not a fan of standing myself. Not just at football, in general.
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Apr 11, 2022 21:31:19 GMT
A lot of safe standing areas in Europe can be converted to seated areas for European games where standing is not allowed. Each row is capable of being a seated area or a standing area. So it can be split into seats at the front and standing at the back for away fans in league games. And it can be done row by row depending on demand. All they have to do is to ensure that the standing area is behind the seated area - how many rows are standing and how many are seated depends upon demand. If away fans are offered the choice of seats or standing areas why would anyone who wanted to stand be daft enough to buy a ticket for a seated area? In essence the whole point of safe standing is to offer each fans the choice of being seated or standing. Not a fan of standing myself. Not just at football, in general. I get less enthusiastic as I get older. But what you or I feel is irrelevant - it is surely important that those who wish to have a choice can have one and plenty of people do enjoy standing at games.
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