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Post by stokiesteve82 on Apr 4, 2022 21:13:56 GMT
Surely our management and coaches should havexsat down and analysed what they believe is our best 11 players to start games.
In particular the defence changing every game will not help to build relationships and trust.
I like Oniel but the chopping and changing is surely not going to help build a settled team that gel and understand what teammates strengths are eyc
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Post by GoBoks on Apr 4, 2022 21:22:31 GMT
According to some on here, they are eleven players we do not have.
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Post by jokker on Apr 5, 2022 8:52:40 GMT
Surely our management and coaches should havexsat down and analysed what they believe is our best 11 players to start games. In particular the defence changing every game will not help to build relationships and trust. I like Oniel but the chopping and changing is surely not going to help build a settled team that gel and understand what teammates strengths are eyc They did sit down and decided that Stoke had to have a rotation policy because of the old agers in the team and the many youths not fully developed. You can't have a rotation policy unless you rotate players... I'm not saying it was a good idea, in fact I am saying that it has not worked at all, but it seems to have been the thinking. As an idea it's up there with the non-bonus wage structure. But if they still adhere to that policy there could be as many as six changes for Reading. Which is like telling the opposition, come on into our defence, we don't know each other. |
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Post by mickstupp on Apr 5, 2022 8:58:50 GMT
Surely our management and coaches should havexsat down and analysed what they believe is our best 11 players to start games. In particular the defence changing every game will not help to build relationships and trust. I like Oniel but the chopping and changing is surely not going to help build a settled team that gel and understand what teammates strengths are eyc It’s impossible in a 46 game season where we regularly have three game weeks. We also appear to have an extremely brittle squad who pick up a host of injuries. |
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Apr 5, 2022 9:06:12 GMT
Surely our management and coaches should havexsat down and analysed what they believe is our best 11 players to start games. In particular the defence changing every game will not help to build relationships and trust. I like Oniel but the chopping and changing is surely not going to help build a settled team that gel and understand what teammates strengths are eyc Difficult in our situation re players that probably won't be here next season. Some will think like me that we should be concentrating on players that will be here next season. Playing them in their position and filling the gaps with the others. Some just want the best 11 and to win the game any which way. Given those priorities leads to two very different line ups. As fans we don't really have much information to go on. I do think that some players seem to have to do a lot more to keep their place than others, probably my best example of this would be Thompson who seems to get left out in favour of bigger names even after he's played well. Now if one of those bigger names won't be here next season (you'd expect they know even if it's not been announced) to my mind that just shouldn't be happening. |
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Post by bayernoatcake on Apr 5, 2022 9:23:04 GMT
Surely our management and coaches should havexsat down and analysed what they believe is our best 11 players to start games. In particular the defence changing every game will not help to build relationships and trust. I like Oniel but the chopping and changing is surely not going to help build a settled team that gel and understand what teammates strengths are eyc It’s impossible in a 46 game season where we regularly have three game weeks. We also appear to have an extremely brittle squad who pick up a host of injuries. It is and that's what makes how MON has gone about it even more strange imo. He played Powell and Vrancic together when it was pretty obvious it should be one or the other. Tymon has been flogged to death. And we've got away with it for now but sometimes he's looked really tired and his performances dipped because of it. I think we overplayed Souttar too with all the travelling and lack of a summer he had. You don't want to be making wholesale changes but wing backs in a formation where they are up and down is one position you need to keep fresh. Powell and Vrancic both need managing to keep them fitter for longer. You should definitely have a best XI but also have in mind the changes you can make to limit the impact to that to keep the squad going for longer. |
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Post by skemstokie on Apr 5, 2022 9:32:51 GMT
Surely our management and coaches should havexsat down and analysed what they believe is our best 11 players to start games. In particular the defence changing every game will not help to build relationships and trust. I like Oniel but the chopping and changing is surely not going to help build a settled team that gel and understand what teammates strengths are eyc Perhaps with the amount of games played age of players ( some too young or too old) means we have to make changes to ease players through what is deemed a heavy workload? |
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Post by lordb on Apr 5, 2022 10:10:08 GMT
No such thing as a best 11
It's whoever is best for the particular game
However continuity, especially at the back, is generally a good thing
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Post by jokker on Apr 5, 2022 10:32:09 GMT
No such thing as a best 11 It's whoever is best for the particular game However continuity, especially at the back, is generally a good thing Yes and no. I agree that you have some, not all, different players for different games. But you can't rotate so much and experiment on a continual basis with a wide array of different systems and variations that towards the end of the season when you play the crunch match/matches that decide whether you go up or not, you don't know exactly which 11 will play. Perhaps the management knew well in advance that Stoke wouldn't be in such crunch matches, so they just decided to try 40 different lineups and as many variations of game plans... |
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Post by lordb on Apr 5, 2022 11:05:39 GMT
No such thing as a best 11 It's whoever is best for the particular game However continuity, especially at the back, is generally a good thing Yes and no. I agree that you have some, not all, different players for different games. But you can't rotate so much and experiment on a continual basis with a wide array of different systems and variations that towards the end of the season when you play the crunch match/matches that decide whether you go up or not, you don't know exactly which 11 will play. Perhaps the management knew well in advance that Stoke wouldn't be in such crunch matches, so they just decided to try 40 different lineups and as many variations of game plans... Looking for a balance Five changes from game to game doesn't sit right but same 11 every week, nah |
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Apr 5, 2022 11:54:18 GMT
Yes and no. I agree that you have some, not all, different players for different games. But you can't rotate so much and experiment on a continual basis with a wide array of different systems and variations that towards the end of the season when you play the crunch match/matches that decide whether you go up or not, you don't know exactly which 11 will play. Perhaps the management knew well in advance that Stoke wouldn't be in such crunch matches, so they just decided to try 40 different lineups and as many variations of game plans... Looking for a balance Five changes from game to game doesn't sit right but same 11 every week, nah It's a difficult one especially when things haven't gone well. MON's selections and changes have appeared to lack rhyme or reason. I know I criticised him for persevering with Smith and Tymon in the wing back positions for so long when they were clearly not producing but he's also changed things that have appeared to work without clear reason. Thompson and Allen played well together vs WBA (H) Thommo was out next game. Sawyers played well as the most advanced midfielder he's back in a deep lying role next game. Keepers dropped and changed with very little justification. Gives the impression of a bloke just thrashing around randomly and hoping something works, we've seen how that usually ends. |
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Post by MilanStokie on Apr 5, 2022 12:09:33 GMT
Just my opinion like; Every manager "Should" know what his best 11 is. Rotating too much is a massive error and really should only be done through necessity. Obviously a balance is needed, players need rest, they may have a knock, a certain opponent might not suit them (eg a faster CB vs a lumbersome CB, which striker is better suited), significant dips in form. That being said, if a manager finds himself constantly selecting players based on the opponent then its a massive mistake. The team should be focused on IT'S positives rather than negating the positive of the other team. You only need to look as far as Leicester City when they won the Premier League with a very consistent 11. Now that is very much an exceptional case as they suffered very few injuries, but they stuck largely to their preferred 11, they grew consistency with it and they played the same way with the same players regardless of opponent. Anything else is venturing on the side of negativity. Again, just my opinion  |
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Post by tqstokie on Apr 5, 2022 12:14:27 GMT
IMHO you should always use your subs. It depends largely on the state of the game. Sometimes it is to add fresh legs and impetus and sometimes purely tactical or sometimes forced by injury. To my mind it is sheer madness to sub a player after 85 minutes unless it is forced. I do not subscribe to the tactical time wasting point of view if generally the referee adds on 30 seconds of additional time for a substitution what is the point.
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Apr 5, 2022 12:43:48 GMT
IMHO you should always use your subs. It depends largely on the state of the game. Sometimes it is to add fresh legs and impetus and sometimes purely tactical or sometimes forced by injury. To my mind it is sheer madness to sub a player after 85 minutes unless it is forced. I do not subscribe to the tactical time wasting point of view if generally the referee adds on 30 seconds of additional time for a substitution what is the point. Annoyed me yet again at the weekend that we had a player stripped and ready to come on and he chose to allow Sheff Utd to make there sub without using the stoppage to make ours. He should be looking to build momentum at home and not be looking for another opportunity to disrupt the game. Seems like a minute thing but to me it just demonstrates how negative he is. |
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Post by jokker on Apr 5, 2022 13:10:14 GMT
Looking for a balance Five changes from game to game doesn't sit right but same 11 every week, nah It's a difficult one especially when things haven't gone well. MON's selections and changes have appeared to lack rhyme or reason. I know I criticised him for persevering with Smith and Tymon in the wing back positions for so long when they were clearly not producing but he's also changed things that have appeared to work without clear reason. Thompson and Allen played well together vs WBA (H) Thommo was out next game. Sawyers played well as the most advanced midfielder he's back in a deep lying role next game. Keepers dropped and changed with very little justification. Gives the impression of a bloke just thrashing around randomly and hoping something works, we've seen how that usually ends. Yeah and Campbell scored 2 goals vs Brum, then was allowed 90 mins vs Luton, where everyone was poor, but then Campbell was out the team for the next four matches, then reappeared vs Cardiff and scored, but was then dropped again. It's no way to rebuild a young player bereft of confidence after a long lay off. But since MO'N feels Stoke needs 7 strikers he must try to make everyone happy. |
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Apr 5, 2022 16:36:47 GMT
It's a difficult one especially when things haven't gone well. MON's selections and changes have appeared to lack rhyme or reason. I know I criticised him for persevering with Smith and Tymon in the wing back positions for so long when they were clearly not producing but he's also changed things that have appeared to work without clear reason. Thompson and Allen played well together vs WBA (H) Thommo was out next game. Sawyers played well as the most advanced midfielder he's back in a deep lying role next game. Keepers dropped and changed with very little justification. Gives the impression of a bloke just thrashing around randomly and hoping something works, we've seen how that usually ends. Yeah and Campbell scored 2 goals vs Brum, then was allowed 90 mins vs Luton, where everyone was poor, but then Campbell was out the team for the next four matches, then reappeared vs Cardiff and scored, but was then dropped again. It's no way to rebuild a young player bereft of confidence after a long lay off. But since MO'N feels Stoke needs 7 strikers he must try to make everyone happy. I honestly think MON's man management has been pretty awful this season. Never really been a fan of his football but would have said man management was one of his better suits. This season he's messed players about and shown a distinct lack of faith and loyalty to quite a few of them to defelect from the poor job he's done of finding the best ways to use them to anything like their maximum potential. |
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Post by mickstupp on Apr 5, 2022 16:55:07 GMT
It's a difficult one especially when things haven't gone well. MON's selections and changes have appeared to lack rhyme or reason. I know I criticised him for persevering with Smith and Tymon in the wing back positions for so long when they were clearly not producing but he's also changed things that have appeared to work without clear reason. Thompson and Allen played well together vs WBA (H) Thommo was out next game. Sawyers played well as the most advanced midfielder he's back in a deep lying role next game. Keepers dropped and changed with very little justification. Gives the impression of a bloke just thrashing around randomly and hoping something works, we've seen how that usually ends. Yeah and Campbell scored 2 goals vs Brum, then was allowed 90 mins vs Luton, where everyone was poor, but then Campbell was out the team for the next four matches, then reappeared vs Cardiff and scored, but was then dropped again. It's no way to rebuild a young player bereft of confidence after a long lay off. But since MO'N feels Stoke needs 7 strikers he must try to make everyone happy. Campbell didn’t score against Cardiff |
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Post by lordb on Apr 5, 2022 17:34:03 GMT
Just my opinion like; Every manager "Should" know what his best 11 is. Rotating too much is a massive error and really should only be done through necessity. Obviously a balance is needed, players need rest, they may have a knock, a certain opponent might not suit them (eg a faster CB vs a lumbersome CB, which striker is better suited), significant dips in form. That being said, if a manager finds himself constantly selecting players based on the opponent then its a massive mistake. The team should be focused on IT'S positives rather than negating the positive of the other team. You only need to look as far as Leicester City when they won the Premier League with a very consistent 11. Now that is very much an exceptional case as they suffered very few injuries, but they stuck largely to their preferred 11, they grew consistency with it and they played the same way with the same players regardless of opponent. Anything else is venturing on the side of negativity. Again, just my opinion Do Kopp and Pep know their best 11's? It's a myth However as said above too many changes is not good either |
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Post by thehartshillbadger on Apr 5, 2022 17:39:07 GMT
Demar Phillips
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Post by jokker on Apr 5, 2022 18:34:07 GMT
Yeah and Campbell scored 2 goals vs Brum, then was allowed 90 mins vs Luton, where everyone was poor, but then Campbell was out the team for the next four matches, then reappeared vs Cardiff and scored, but was then dropped again. It's no way to rebuild a young player bereft of confidence after a long lay off. But since MO'N feels Stoke needs 7 strikers he must try to make everyone happy. I honestly think MON's man management has been pretty awful this season. Never really been a fan of his football but would have said man management was one of his better suits. This season he's messed players about and shown a distinct lack of faith and loyalty to quite a few of them to defelect from the poor job he's done of finding the best ways to use them to anything like their maximum potential. I would come down on him less severely, although I'm often angered by his man management and other stuff. But sometimes you can read his thinking and understand it. It's got to with what this thread is about. Until this very 10 day period, he's never chosen to and/or have been able to pick virtually the same and/or best 11. He can't of course say in public that this last half season has been like one long pre season where he's tested every player on the book in every possible formation with variations, and with results and league position seemingly less important, but it certainly seems that way swometimes. That's why I think it was a mistake to bring in six players in January, because it just gave him many more permutations to test rather than clarity in selection. He must have cleared this bizarre choice with the board and they've given him the full go ahead. |
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Apr 5, 2022 20:03:27 GMT
I honestly think MON's man management has been pretty awful this season. Never really been a fan of his football but would have said man management was one of his better suits. This season he's messed players about and shown a distinct lack of faith and loyalty to quite a few of them to defelect from the poor job he's done of finding the best ways to use them to anything like their maximum potential. I would come down on him less severely, although I'm often angered by his man management and other stuff. But sometimes you can read his thinking and understand it. It's got to with what this thread is about. Until this very 10 day period, he's never chosen to and/or have been able to pick virtually the same and/or best 11. He can't of course say in public that this last half season has been like one long pre season where he's tested every player on the book in every possible formation with variations, and with results and league position seemingly less important, but it certainly seems that way swometimes. That's why I think it was a mistake to bring in six players in January, because it just gave him many more permutations to test rather than clarity in selection. He must have cleared this bizarre choice with the board and they've given him the full go ahead. Don't suppose we'll ever know whether there has been any sort of plan or whether it has been the wild and random thrashing about of a bloke who's truly out of ideas and with little belief in anything. It seems fairly clear he's staying so we'll just have to hope he makes a better fist of next season. |
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Post by MilanStokie on Apr 6, 2022 14:52:53 GMT
Just my opinion like; Every manager "Should" know what his best 11 is. Rotating too much is a massive error and really should only be done through necessity. Obviously a balance is needed, players need rest, they may have a knock, a certain opponent might not suit them (eg a faster CB vs a lumbersome CB, which striker is better suited), significant dips in form. That being said, if a manager finds himself constantly selecting players based on the opponent then its a massive mistake. The team should be focused on IT'S positives rather than negating the positive of the other team. You only need to look as far as Leicester City when they won the Premier League with a very consistent 11. Now that is very much an exceptional case as they suffered very few injuries, but they stuck largely to their preferred 11, they grew consistency with it and they played the same way with the same players regardless of opponent. Anything else is venturing on the side of negativity. Again, just my opinion Do Kopp and Pep know their best 11's? It's a myth However as said above too many changes is not good either I'd say 2 years ago Klopp did absolutely. Infact, the first year they won the title under Klopp they barely changed their 11. More recently he switches things around though. I think Guardiola and Man City are different because he has pretty much 2 players per position that would walk into any other Prem team. |
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Post by jokker on Apr 6, 2022 15:26:41 GMT
I would come down on him less severely, although I'm often angered by his man management and other stuff. But sometimes you can read his thinking and understand it. It's got to with what this thread is about. Until this very 10 day period, he's never chosen to and/or have been able to pick virtually the same and/or best 11. He can't of course say in public that this last half season has been like one long pre season where he's tested every player on the book in every possible formation with variations, and with results and league position seemingly less important, but it certainly seems that way swometimes. That's why I think it was a mistake to bring in six players in January, because it just gave him many more permutations to test rather than clarity in selection. He must have cleared this bizarre choice with the board and they've given him the full go ahead. Don't suppose we'll ever know whether there has been any sort of plan or whether it has been the wild and random thrashing about of a bloke who's truly out of ideas and with little belief in anything. It seems fairly clear he's staying so we'll just have to hope he makes a better fist of next season. He's picked virtually the same team for the last three games, so perhaps there is an unspoken admission that he's been rotating too much earlier in the season. So if he makes similar confessions, at least to himself and the assistants and coaches, there's hope. There is always hope. |
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Post by jezzascfc on Apr 6, 2022 16:17:47 GMT
If we are to do even remotely better than this season, our best eleven for next season will probably only include 5 or 6 players who are currently at the club. For me - Bursik, Souttar, Tymon, Baker, Powell, Campbell - and one or two of them have question marks against them.
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Post by jokker on Apr 6, 2022 17:16:07 GMT
If we are to do even remotely better than this season, our best eleven for next season will probably only include 5 or 6 players who are currently at the club. For me - Bursik, Souttar, Tymon, Baker, Powell, Campbell - and one or two of them have question marks against them. . I would be inclined to agree with those six players (five of them signed by Hughes), but they probably all have question marks of one sort or another against them. Can we for instance hold on to Souttar and Baker? Can Tymon keep up the pace if not rotated with another wb for another 46 games? What happens if any or most of them struggle with and after new injuries. You would hope that some of those not mentioned are better integrated come August, because if not we're just going to have to integrate another 6 or more players, which will likely take time. Sometimes you do get players who instantly become fulcrums in the team, like Baker, but usually not all six, at least among the quality of players that we can expect will arrive here. Since everyone now finally agrees that O'Neill will be manager next season your six will have to be extended to Brown and Thompson. They're not world beaters, but...they're O'Neill's favourite scholars. |
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Post by lordb on Apr 6, 2022 17:17:48 GMT
If we are to do even remotely better than this season, our best eleven for next season will probably only include 5 or 6 players who are currently at the club. For me - Bursik, Souttar, Tymon, Baker, Powell, Campbell - and one or two of them have question marks against them. . I would be inclined to agree with those six players (five of them signed by Hughes), but they probably all have question marks of one sort or another against them. Can we for instance hold on to Souttar and Baker? Can Tymon keep up the pace if not rotated with another wb for another 46 games? What happens if any or most of them struggle with and after new injuries. You would hope that some of those not mentioned are better integrated come August, because if not we're just going to have to integrate another 6 or more players, which will likely take time. Sometimes you do get players who instantly become fulcrums in the team, like Baker, but usually not all six, at least among the quality of players that we can expect will arrive here. Since everyone now finally agrees that O'Neill will be manager next season your six will have to be extended to Brown and Thompson. They're not world beaters, but...they're O'Neill's favourite scholars. Was Bursik signed in Hughes time? Is so that's 4 as Baker and Powell weren't |
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Post by jokker on Apr 6, 2022 17:22:57 GMT
. I would be inclined to agree with those six players (five of them signed by Hughes), but they probably all have question marks of one sort or another against them. Can we for instance hold on to Souttar and Baker? Can Tymon keep up the pace if not rotated with another wb for another 46 games? What happens if any or most of them struggle with and after new injuries. You would hope that some of those not mentioned are better integrated come August, because if not we're just going to have to integrate another 6 or more players, which will likely take time. Sometimes you do get players who instantly become fulcrums in the team, like Baker, but usually not all six, at least among the quality of players that we can expect will arrive here. Since everyone now finally agrees that O'Neill will be manager next season your six will have to be extended to Brown and Thompson. They're not world beaters, but...they're O'Neill's favourite scholars. Was Bursik signed in Hughes time? Is so that's 4 as Baker and Powell weren't True. Powell was signed by the one and only Jones, who then refused to play him. So only 4. But only 1 O'Neill signing. |
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Post by jezzascfc on Apr 6, 2022 19:35:02 GMT
If we are to do even remotely better than this season, our best eleven for next season will probably only include 5 or 6 players who are currently at the club. For me - Bursik, Souttar, Tymon, Baker, Powell, Campbell - and one or two of them have question marks against them. . I would be inclined to agree with those six players (five of them signed by Hughes), but they probably all have question marks of one sort or another against them. Can we for instance hold on to Souttar and Baker? Can Tymon keep up the pace if not rotated with another wb for another 46 games? What happens if any or most of them struggle with and after new injuries. You would hope that some of those not mentioned are better integrated come August, because if not we're just going to have to integrate another 6 or more players, which will likely take time. Sometimes you do get players who instantly become fulcrums in the team, like Baker, but usually not all six, at least among the quality of players that we can expect will arrive here. Since everyone now finally agrees that O'Neill will be manager next season your six will have to be extended to Brown and Thompson. They're not world beaters, but...they're O'Neill's favourite scholars. I'm happy with Brown and Thommo being at the club, just not as starters if we want to finally start challenging for a top six spot. We look like having to search for freebies and loanees again to fill out the ranks. |
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Post by cvillestokie on Apr 6, 2022 19:50:44 GMT
Personally, I think we played our best stuff in a 3-5-2. We haven’t looked much better in a back four than we did at our worst in a 3-5-2 either.
Next season, I hope for better.
Bursik
New rwb
Wilmot
Souttar
Forrester/Taylor/Jagielka/new centre back
Tymon
Thompson/new dm
Baker
Powell
New target man
Campbell/Brown/DWP
We are three good players from that being a solid formation.
If we did go 4-2-3-1, it could also be easily tweaked, but it needs a target man at the centre. You need true hold up play. You need someone to win flick ons as well.
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Post by Roger Everyone on Apr 6, 2022 20:04:50 GMT
Brek shea
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