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Post by dirtclod on Mar 16, 2022 22:38:45 GMT
[Toilet flushing]
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Post by andyapotter on Mar 16, 2022 22:39:14 GMT
Good point Souttar not available has been a massive blow If Souttar stays fit we finish much higher up the table. But at some point (and I'm not sure its this one) the opposition realised that we are beatable and have consistently being confidently executing plans to stifle us going forward and to pick us off at the other end. We don't seem able to grind out a win. I don't know how you loose the ability to do that or if we had it. Maybe we're trying to win 'the right way' too much? Don't really see it as a change in luck. For sure MON has been unlucky, but he's had a fair share of fortune as well. Not sure how many of the goals we scored against Cardiff at home we saw coming, and how they only managed 2 tonight is anyone's guess.
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Post by jimmygscfc1234 on Mar 16, 2022 22:47:39 GMT
We are not a tough team in any sense of the word. We’re not a physical team, in any area of the pitch. Yes, there’s a lack of ability, but the lack of spirit is shocking. I want us to have a few nasty bastards to dig us out when we need it and put some fear into the opposition. I’m not certain MON realises this.
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Post by mrcoke on Mar 16, 2022 22:53:39 GMT
Nothing we over achieved early doors and are under achieving now in the end we were always a 50 to,55 point team with a 55 point manager that’s what he is at this level , there was never anything in his cv to suggest any different Maybe I’m an eternal optimist but I still think he could come good. This run is dreadful and I struggle to see how he can survive it. But I still want him to come good. I think he’s done a lot to put the club in a better position than were in when he took us over. As Jimmy Greaves once said " An optimist is someone who thinks Glenn Miller is still just missing".I think there is more chance of Glenn Miller turning up than MON achieving promotion.
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Post by Vadiation_Ribe on Mar 16, 2022 22:59:11 GMT
I agree on both points, but I bet we would've won far more games if we hadn't had those injuries, and not many would be calling for O'Neill's head. I don't know how long I can go on hoping for a good run to the end of the season to lead us into next. We finally look to have lifted the penalty curse with Baker, but now we have the losing so many games from winning positions monkey on our back. If the penalty 'monkey' was King Kong, the losing points from winning positions seems like Godzilla. There’s no reason why we couldn’t have won more games without them than we have though. He’s hardly helping with his constant changes and bad game management. I'm baffled at times too, but it's the players, not just O'Neill, and there must be a reason for some of his decisions. Like why is Bonham playing instead of Bursik? I genuinely think we have the basis of a very good team and we just need a bit of luck to scrape a win. I can't see that coming in the next match with it being at home though, but maybe Rowett returning will add a bit of spike, and at least their top scorer can't play against us...
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Mar 16, 2022 23:01:52 GMT
There’s no reason why we couldn’t have won more games without them than we have though. He’s hardly helping with his constant changes and bad game management. I'm baffled at times too, but it's the players, not just O'Neill, and there must be a reason for some of his decisions. Like why is Bonham playing instead of Bursik? I genuinely think we have the basis of a very good team and we just need a bit of luck to scrape a win. I can't see that coming in the next match with it being at home though, but maybe Rowett returning will add a bit of spike, and at least their top scorer can't play against us... Luck really shouldn’t come into it, the manager is getting his team selections and tactics wrong consistently and is now in a panic and throwing whatever he can at the wall in the hope that something sticks. We haven’t been unlucky, we’re just woefully fragile. Yes a lot of that is on the players but it’s on the manager too. He can’t take the credit when things were going well at the start of the season and be absolved of blame now they’re not, especially when decisions he’s making are visibly contributing to the problems.
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Post by Vadiation_Ribe on Mar 16, 2022 23:24:26 GMT
I'm baffled at times too, but it's the players, not just O'Neill, and there must be a reason for some of his decisions. Like why is Bonham playing instead of Bursik? I genuinely think we have the basis of a very good team and we just need a bit of luck to scrape a win. I can't see that coming in the next match with it being at home though, but maybe Rowett returning will add a bit of spike, and at least their top scorer can't play against us... Luck really shouldn’t come into it, the manager is getting his team selections and tactics wrong consistently and is now in a panic and throwing whatever he can at the wall in the hope that something sticks. We haven’t been unlucky, we’re just woefully fragile. Yes a lot of that is on the players but it’s on the manager too. He can’t take the credit when things were going well at the start of the season and be absolved of blame now they’re not, especially when decisions he’s making are visibly contributing to the problems. We're unlucky and fragile, and O'Neill has to have some responsibility for the latter especially. It's the manager and his team's job to get the players in the right mindset. I said a couple of months ago that the malaise from the last season or so of the Hughes era has never disappeared, and it's rearing its big stinking head again. I'm beginning to think it'll be around for a good while yet and that no manager we'd realistically get is going to make a difference. I think O'Neill has overall done a great job with the squad turnover but the be all and end all is performances and results on the pitch, and they aren't good enough. We aren't a bad team though and have only been completely outclassed what - once this season? That's one reason why I think we're not far off a team that wins consistently.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Mar 17, 2022 7:33:02 GMT
Luck really shouldn’t come into it, the manager is getting his team selections and tactics wrong consistently and is now in a panic and throwing whatever he can at the wall in the hope that something sticks. We haven’t been unlucky, we’re just woefully fragile. Yes a lot of that is on the players but it’s on the manager too. He can’t take the credit when things were going well at the start of the season and be absolved of blame now they’re not, especially when decisions he’s making are visibly contributing to the problems. We're unlucky and fragile, and O'Neill has to have some responsibility for the latter especially. It's the manager and his team's job to get the players in the right mindset. I said a couple of months ago that the malaise from the last season or so of the Hughes era has never disappeared, and it's rearing its big stinking head again. I'm beginning to think it'll be around for a good while yet and that no manager we'd realistically get is going to make a difference. I think O'Neill has overall done a great job with the squad turnover but the be all and end all is performances and results on the pitch, and they aren't good enough. We aren't a bad team though and have only been completely outclassed what - once this season? That's one reason why I think we're not far off a team that wins consistently. We look further and further away from looking like a team that wins consistently than we have under any time under his reign.
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Post by franklin on Mar 17, 2022 7:46:46 GMT
For me I think the players are weak mentally and they know MON is out of his depth and weak and are not bothered about things. We need a "strong" manager who can inspire his squad MON has neither ability.
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Post by questionable on Mar 17, 2022 8:19:20 GMT
For me I think the players are weak mentally and they know MON is out of his depth and weak and are not bothered about things. We need a "strong" manager who can inspire his squad MON has neither ability. For me I’d get TP back until the end of the season to oversee the club as a whole and work along side the owners to set up a solid foundation for any incoming manager for then to take the reigns with his style etc. Everything and I mean everything is fundamentally wrong with this club.
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Post by franklin on Mar 17, 2022 8:23:26 GMT
For me I think the players are weak mentally and they know MON is out of his depth and weak and are not bothered about things. We need a "strong" manager who can inspire his squad MON has neither ability. For me I’d get TP back until the end of the season to oversee the club as a whole and work along side the owners to set up a solid foundation for any incoming manager for then to take the reigns with his style etc. Everything and I mean everything is fundamentally wrong with this club. Desperate times need desparate measures.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Mar 17, 2022 8:28:02 GMT
Here's your TP team for the rest of the season...
Bursik
Wilmot Jagielka Moore Fox
Tymon Allen Thompson Campbell
Fletcher
Maja
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Post by theonlooker on Mar 17, 2022 8:30:27 GMT
Here's your TP team for the rest of the season... Bursik Wilmot Jagielka Moore Fox Tymon Allen Thompson Campbell Fletcher Maja Swap Campbell for Brown.
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Post by pavel on Mar 17, 2022 8:32:26 GMT
Let’s try and look forward rather than forever looking back for heavens sake.
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Post by Vadiation_Ribe on Mar 17, 2022 9:03:40 GMT
We're unlucky and fragile, and O'Neill has to have some responsibility for the latter especially. It's the manager and his team's job to get the players in the right mindset. I said a couple of months ago that the malaise from the last season or so of the Hughes era has never disappeared, and it's rearing its big stinking head again. I'm beginning to think it'll be around for a good while yet and that no manager we'd realistically get is going to make a difference. I think O'Neill has overall done a great job with the squad turnover but the be all and end all is performances and results on the pitch, and they aren't good enough. We aren't a bad team though and have only been completely outclassed what - once this season? That's one reason why I think we're not far off a team that wins consistently. We look further and further away from looking like a team that wins consistently than we have under any time under his reign. I completely agree we look further and further away but still stick by my point that we're not far off.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Mar 17, 2022 9:15:36 GMT
We look further and further away from looking like a team that wins consistently than we have under any time under his reign. I completely agree we look further and further away but still stick by my point that we're not far off. That doesn't make sense Alex. And also, look at how we're setting up now compared to how we were when we were playing well. Back then we seemed to know our best team. Now we're making multiple changes from week to week. How is that conducive to things turning round?
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Post by Rick Grimes on Mar 17, 2022 9:30:33 GMT
Souttar and Powell being out for most of the season has had a big influence but ultimately it’s just bad management.
We’ve been largely wedded to playing 3 at the back because he seemingly doesn’t trust the CB’s in a 2 at the back and he also can’t play Smith and Tymon in a back four. The problem is that 3 at the back is just too negative.
This just makes MON’s decision to openly declare that he doesn’t think there’s a need for a midfield enforcer at the start of the season seem like absolute madness.
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Post by scfc75 on Mar 17, 2022 9:32:45 GMT
I completely agree we look further and further away but still stick by my point that we're not far off. That doesn't make sense Alex. And also, look at how we're setting up now compared to how we were when we were playing well. Back then we seemed to know our best team. Now we're making multiple changes from week to week. How is that conducive to things turning round? It feels very much like he’s hoping to stumble on something that works. The signs of a manager who has ran out of ideas.
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Post by wuzza on Mar 17, 2022 9:41:32 GMT
We look further and further away from looking like a team that wins consistently than we have under any time under his reign. I completely agree we look further and further away but still stick by my point that we're not far off. I would love to believe that but for me I’m more and more convinced that the tactics MON wants to employ will never produce a consistently winning team especially as we no longer have the financial capacity to buy high (by Championship standards) quality players. We need a strong defence that believes it’s job is to defend , we need some nasty sods who take no prisoners and we need a big bloke up front who never lets the opposition relax. I don’t think any of the above are part of MON’s philosophy and for that reason it looks like the Championship is not a place that he should be plying his trade.
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Post by Vadiation_Ribe on Mar 17, 2022 9:41:58 GMT
I completely agree we look further and further away but still stick by my point that we're not far off. That doesn't make sense Alex. And also, look at how we're setting up now compared to how we were when we were playing well. Back then we seemed to know our best team. Now we're making multiple changes from week to week. How is that conducive to things turning round? It's contradictory as a standalone comment but makes some sense given my previous posts I think (which I don't remember if are in this thread). The issues are wider than starting lineup changes - that's happened in the past 2-3 years and we've played well and won, and injuries have forced the hand often - Smith now and so many other players returning from injury like Fox, Vrancic and Sawyers recently. I do feel I'm clutching at straws. After the promising start to the season and then the positive signings in January, it feels worse than when we were relegated from the Premier League. Maybe O'Neill isn't cut out for or hasn't adjusted to the quick turnaround of games when the pressure's on in club football. He's talked about how important it is signing the right characters, but we don't seem to have many of them at the moment.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Mar 17, 2022 9:51:31 GMT
That doesn't make sense Alex. And also, look at how we're setting up now compared to how we were when we were playing well. Back then we seemed to know our best team. Now we're making multiple changes from week to week. How is that conducive to things turning round? It's contradictory as a standalone comment but makes some sense given my previous posts I think (which I don't remember if are in this thread). The issues are wider than starting lineup changes - that's happened in the past 2-3 years and we've played well and won, and injuries have forced the hand often - Smith now and so many other players returning from injury like Fox, Vrancic and Sawyers recently. I do feel I'm clutching at straws. After the promising start to the season and then the positive signings in January, it feels worse than when we were relegated from the Premier League. Maybe O'Neill isn't cut out for or hasn't adjusted to the quick turnaround of games when the pressure's on in club football. He's talked about how important it is signing the right characters, but we don't seem to have many of them at the moment. We haven't made 4-5 changes game-to-game under this manager I don't think? Certainly not with any kind of ongoing benefit? I think there should be enough quality and character in the squad to be better than we are if he'd just settle on a balanced team and system for a few games.
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Post by Vadiation_Ribe on Mar 17, 2022 10:21:00 GMT
It's contradictory as a standalone comment but makes some sense given my previous posts I think (which I don't remember if are in this thread). The issues are wider than starting lineup changes - that's happened in the past 2-3 years and we've played well and won, and injuries have forced the hand often - Smith now and so many other players returning from injury like Fox, Vrancic and Sawyers recently. I do feel I'm clutching at straws. After the promising start to the season and then the positive signings in January, it feels worse than when we were relegated from the Premier League. Maybe O'Neill isn't cut out for or hasn't adjusted to the quick turnaround of games when the pressure's on in club football. He's talked about how important it is signing the right characters, but we don't seem to have many of them at the moment. We haven't made 4-5 changes game-to-game under this manager I don't think? Certainly not with any kind of ongoing benefit? I think there should be enough quality and character in the squad to be better than we are if he'd just settle on a balanced team and system for a few games. I was more referring to individual games rather than on a consistent basis. Agreed on the last point - there should be enough. But it doesn't look like there is even if he sticks for a few games. It seems like every player we sign since we were relegated drops a level or two. It's a weird one because O'Neill was being criticised for not changing, and now he is it's not working either and he's being criticised for that too. But it does seem he's gone too far past any middle ground. I really think the injuries have done us in again. Brown and Tymon have been our only two consistently decent players this season, and aside from Allen who I imagine has played a similar amount of games as those two, are they the only two players who haven't had a long-ish injury layoff/issues? I don't think that's a coincidence.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Mar 17, 2022 10:32:10 GMT
We haven't made 4-5 changes game-to-game under this manager I don't think? Certainly not with any kind of ongoing benefit? I think there should be enough quality and character in the squad to be better than we are if he'd just settle on a balanced team and system for a few games. I was more referring to individual games rather than on a consistent basis. Agreed on the last point - there should be enough. But it doesn't look like there is even if he sticks for a few games. It seems like every player we sign since we were relegated drops a level or two. It's a weird one because O'Neill was being criticised for not changing, and now he is it's not working either and he's being criticised for that too. But it does seem he's gone too far past any middle ground. I really think the injuries have done us in again. Brown and Tymon have been our only two consistently decent players this season, and aside from Allen who I imagine has played a similar amount of games as those two, are they the only two players who haven't had a long-ish injury layoff/issues? I don't think that's a coincidence. That's the point though isn't it, we're doing it consistently now, it's not a one-off? He's doing it near enough every game and that lack of stability isn't helping things. We were to an extent rolling with the injuries as damaging as they were. We found a way to win at Hull and QPR without Powell. There was the germ of something there with DWP coming into the side and the JPB signing. For me the Luton game was the turning point. That was when MON seemed to panic and start his Jonesian whirling dervish team/tactics decisions.
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Post by Vadiation_Ribe on Mar 17, 2022 11:11:59 GMT
I was more referring to individual games rather than on a consistent basis. Agreed on the last point - there should be enough. But it doesn't look like there is even if he sticks for a few games. It seems like every player we sign since we were relegated drops a level or two. It's a weird one because O'Neill was being criticised for not changing, and now he is it's not working either and he's being criticised for that too. But it does seem he's gone too far past any middle ground. I really think the injuries have done us in again. Brown and Tymon have been our only two consistently decent players this season, and aside from Allen who I imagine has played a similar amount of games as those two, are they the only two players who haven't had a long-ish injury layoff/issues? I don't think that's a coincidence. That's the point though isn't it, we're doing it consistently now, it's not a one-off? He's doing it near enough every game and that lack of stability isn't helping things. We were to an extent rolling with the injuries as damaging as they were. We found a way to win at Hull and QPR without Powell. There was the germ of something there with DWP coming into the side and the JPB signing. For me the Luton game was the turning point. That was when MON seemed to panic and start his Jonesian whirling dervish team/tactics decisions. I still think the injuries are what has led the spiral to this point. Not just to Souttar and Powell but all the other injuries throughout the season. But the teams put out should be doing better than they are.
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Post by stokeoptimist on Mar 17, 2022 11:20:04 GMT
Self belief, lack of confidence? We have good players but are a poor team. Need to go back to basics and build from the back, cleans sheets and binary results then add a bit of flair. Now whos good at that????????
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Mar 17, 2022 11:22:57 GMT
That's the point though isn't it, we're doing it consistently now, it's not a one-off? He's doing it near enough every game and that lack of stability isn't helping things. We were to an extent rolling with the injuries as damaging as they were. We found a way to win at Hull and QPR without Powell. There was the germ of something there with DWP coming into the side and the JPB signing. For me the Luton game was the turning point. That was when MON seemed to panic and start his Jonesian whirling dervish team/tactics decisions. I still think the injuries are what has led the spiral to this point. Not just to Souttar and Powell but all the other injuries throughout the season. But the teams put out should be doing better than they are. Did we have many significant injuries after that Luton game when the spiralling started though? It wasn't too far removed from the win over Swansea. There was no real need for him to do it.
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Post by Old School Stokie on Mar 17, 2022 12:26:50 GMT
We do have a mix of younger players and older players, but its the likes of Chester & Fox who are supposed to bring calm experience and they have been worse than youngsters. If we are going to mix older players to help the stability, they have to have leadership mentality like Jagielka. Pity he's the only one - Allen on a good day maybe. But Clucas etc are not leaders.
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Post by Vadiation_Ribe on Mar 17, 2022 12:27:34 GMT
I still think the injuries are what has led the spiral to this point. Not just to Souttar and Powell but all the other injuries throughout the season. But the teams put out should be doing better than they are. Did we have many significant injuries after that Luton game when the spiralling started though? It wasn't too far removed from the win over Swansea. There was no real need for him to do it. Either way I still think the consistent injuries have played a big part. The youth in the team is what gives me hope for next season, whoever is in charge. Even now we should have what on paper looks a very good mix of youth and experience.
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